This is a sad story all around. I don't know who to be mad at more, the father who hired people to murder his daughter-in-law because she was black, or the son, who in other reports, seemed to defend his father. The son has since remarried to an indian woman, and has no contact with his half black daughter who is 8 years old, and who he hasn't seen since she was 6 months old. I guess being black is or associated with black is a curse to some. I get more and more apathetic to race relations in America. Remind me not to watch "Roots" right now.
I found the story initially at Aunt Jemima's Revenge.
Verdict a balm to Sparkle Rai's grieving dad
Prosecutors said Chiman Rai had son's wife killed because she was black
By STEVE VISSER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/26/08
Bennet Reid dabbed his eyes when jurors announced Thursday they had convicted Chiman Rai of having Reid's daughter murdered eight years ago because she had married Rai's son.
The 68-year-old Rai couldn't stomach having Sparkle Rai as a daughter-in-law because she was black, prosecutors contended.
Joey Ivansco / AJC
Chiman Rai, 66, is a Mississippi businessman.
Sparkle Rai was killed in her Fulton County apartment in 2000, a month after marrying Rai's son.
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"For my daughter and my granddaughter, this is the best thing that could have happened," said Reid, who once thought the case would never be solved. "My daughter finally got her voice."
The jury — which convicted Rai in six hours — will return Friday to decide whether to sentence him to death.
For years, Reid said, he had no idea who stabbed and strangled his daughter in her Union City apartment while her 7-month-old daughter cried in another room.
He never suspected her in-laws and he had no idea why she had been killed a month after marrying Rajeeve "Ricky" Rai.
The case broke in 2006 when Clinique Jackson was arrested on unrelated charges and offered to help police solve a killing she witnessed as a teenager. She said she and a friend watched Cleveland Clark, now 51, strangle Sparkle and then stab her. Investigators soon tied Clark to Willie Fred Evans and later Herbert Green in Mississippi, where the wealthy Chiman Rai ran a neighborhood grocery.
Green, in his mid-60s, and Evans, 76, testified that they had hired Clark on behalf of Rai in April 2000. Green said Rai paid $10,000 and said he needed his son's new wife killed quickly. Prosecutors contended the elder Rai, a native of India, wanted it done because an interracial marriage would stain the family's name in caste-conscious Indian society.
Evans and Green were so crucial to the prosecution's case that Howard offered them probation for their role in the murder conspiracy in exchange for their testimony.
Defense lawyers Don Samuel and Jack Martin contended Evans and Green, a business associate of Rai, cooked up the story to get the "sweetheart deal" when it was just as likely that the two elderly crooks had sent Clark over to rob Sparkle and Ricky Rai.
The elder Rai had complained his son had stolen tens of thousands of dollars from family businesses and was involved in drugs. Jackson, the witness to the murder, said the first thing Clark asked Sparkle Rai when he attacked her was, "Where are the drugs?"
Evans and Green had lied to investigators repeatedly and Evans even admitted to lying on the witness stand. "You can have hundred liars testify to something and it is not worth anything," Martin told jurors.
The defense lawyers contended there was little evidence that Rai was a racist and brought in more of a dozen witnesses — mostly African-American — who said Rai was a stalwart citizen in the black neighborhood in which he did business. He had also taught at Alcorn State University and studied at the then-Atlanta University, two historically black schools.
Moreover, Green contended that he got the $10,000 from Rai's personal banker at an AmSouth branch in Jackson but there was no record of the transaction and the banker, Gary Nowell, testified he never would have counted $10,000 in cash without recording it.
But prosecutors Sheila Ross and Eleanor Ross told jurors they didn't rely on Evans or Green or Jackson — who testified that Clark called Evans immediately after the killing to tell him "the job was done" and he was coming home for his money.
They had Rai's own words, recorded by Green for investigators.
"You were the one handling all that," Rai said on the tape after Herbert Green alluded to sending a hit man to Atlanta on Rai's behalf. "I know nothing about that. There is nothing on me."
Asked if the evidence had worried him, a relieved Bennet Reid said he had put his faith in the two prosecutors.
"They gave me the strength to make me feel that this was the way it would turn out," he said.
68 comments:
That is sickening. I am speechless at how totally insane you have to be do such a thing. We are truly in dark days, Siditty. What justice is there for the daughter and the family of this woman? Prison is too good for this man.
I get more and more apathetic to race relations in America. Remind me not to watch "Roots" right now.
*Tip toes out of room*
*Grabs C1*
GET BACK IN HERE, YOU HAVE TO ATONE FOR ALL THE WHITE PEOPLE!!!!!!!
Dude probably said his parents were a "little racist" because they kept most of their obnoxiousness to themselves unlike this guy down here in TN or some of the commenters on my blog...
God, Sid. I don't know if I can take it anymore.
I think I'm going to start segregating myself.
Hey Sid, I wrote this on another blog. I'm too lazy now to write it again, so I'm copy and pasting...
This is so infuriating and outrageous. You know, I've never heard of any ethnic group hiring a hitman or trying to kill a white, Asian, or Latin woman for marrying into their family. This touched me on a personal level. My paternal Grandmother, who was black, may have met this similar fate through poisoning.
On a personal level, I know I should treat everyone on an individual basis. However, this is why I never believed in "fighting" for any other non-white ethnic group. I've always preferred to concentrate on issues concerning my own people, particularly black womanhood. I know well there's no unity and love for blacks by other non-whites, despite what they say. There's a universal vilification towards black people. Sorry to say it.
Oh C1, don't go... "you're not like the others... you're different". :)
Why? I am sick of people saying that black women are not good enough. Hated enough that you would kill the mother of your grandchild. I feel sick
However, this is why I never believed in "fighting" for any other non-white ethnic group. I've always preferred to concentrate on issues concerning my own people, particularly black womanhood. I know well there's no unity and love for blacks by other non-whites, despite what they say. There's a universal vilification towards black people.
I feel the same way.
I followed this story the entire way through.
I find it interesting that the son was nowhere to be found...
"I find it interesting that the son was nowhere to be found..."
Nowhere to be found and not really concerned with seeing his daughter, the last piece he has of someone he says he loved so much.
He gave custody of her to her grandparents. That was probably the last bit of business his parents wanted taken care of before he married desi.
OK so the guy got life in prison. Big freaking deal. He is 68, he has to spend a few years in prison. He will die before he spends the time he truly deserves.
Dude probably said his parents were a "little racist" because they kept most of their obnoxiousness to themselves unlike this guy down here in TN or some of the commenters on my blog...
I was so angry when I read your blog, the pakistani guy talking about how the rest of the world thinks black people are ugly, and how the other folks were talking about how western media tries to hard to make black people seem attractive when they aren't. Don't get me started on the self hating black woman who feels the only way to be pretty is mixed. I was MAD.
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God, Sid. I don't know if I can take it anymore. I think I'm going to start segregating myself.
Sometimes I think that black women should just colonize islands and hire male prostitutes to reproduce so that we can start a society in which people like black women. It seems there is no where in the world we can be appreciated.
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This is so infuriating and outrageous. You know, I've never heard of any ethnic group hiring a hitman or trying to kill a white, Asian, or Latin woman for marrying into their family. This touched me on a personal level. My paternal Grandmother, who was black, may have met this similar fate through poisoning.
I notice how it isn't shameful to marry other races, just ours. I am curious about your grandmother, if that happened that is completely sick!!!!
On a personal level, I know I should treat everyone on an individual basis. However, this is why I never believed in "fighting" for any other non-white ethnic group
I get that way sometimes too.I think other minorities are sometimes blatantly more racist that a white person ever could be. I have to catch myself when I think that way though, otherwise I would be hating every one LOL
LOL @ "Oh C1, don't go... "you're not like the others... you're different". :)"
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Why? I am sick of people saying that black women are not good enough. Hated enough that you would kill the mother of your grandchild. I feel sick
Me too Jazzy. I don't understand it. How did we become so hated?
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I find it interesting that the son was nowhere to be found...
I found it strange he testified for his father, and I bet after the ruling today, they are mourning for their father going to prison, but they are not thinking a damn thing about his 8 year old daughter and the woman he hired someone to kill.
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He gave custody of her to her grandparents. That was probably the last bit of business his parents wanted taken care of before he married desi.
I guess they got what they wanted their son to marry a nice indian girl and to rid themselves of the reminder of his mistake by procreating with a black woman.
Yeah, I'm the nice white person :) Articulate and everything!
"*Tip toes out of room*"
LOL! C1,
This must be quite an expereince for you.
********************************
I initally though the murderer was white then read that they were Indians. I have very little love for Indians since we have to deal with alot of their bigotry in Africa. In Uganda they are very careful because we can do an Idi Amin on them.
Infact when I meet an Indian, I don't mention Uganda, I mention Kenya and Rwanda. They get stiff if you mention Uganda and get scared of you because they know you see right through their bigotry and don't by their philosophies they have successfully sold to the West.
"On a personal level, I know I should treat everyone on an individual basis. However, this is why I never believed in "fighting" for any other non-white ethnic group".
I totally don't get Black people who think they can work with the other groups to fight whites. Their logic is beyond me. I have worked with mostly hispanics, and everywhere its the same story.
While in retail we would be in the breakroom and they would be back biting the white guy, then when you leave they start on you to the same white guy. They will say anything to a black person because they take it for granted that you have the same enemy. It is unbelieveable. The job I mentioned over at Yan's, the latino coworker started bitching about the Architect the moment I started working there, then when he was in, she would join him in bitchng about the clients and then when I left, she turned on me. This behavior is too common and have spoken to many people that observed the same thing.
Now you as a black person how do you expect to get along with such behavior. I just don't get it.
Is it a blind desire to bring down the white power that they try to make deals with these people ? Well the obvious is, you the black person will be on the losing end whether you meet your ultimate objective or not.
"I was so angry when I read your blog, the pakistani guy talking about how the rest of the world thinks black people are ugly, and how the other folks were talking about how western media tries to hard to make black people seem attractive when they aren't."
The way I see it, its a cycle, other minorities have the same exact attitudes that whites had in the 16th century. The only difference is that now there are laws to protect the black species.
They see us in the same exact inhumane way and that is a simple fact. The bad news is there is no movement as we have seen in the past to make them see us as equal human beings, so their racism may in the end be alot worse than white racim because there are no mechanisms to curb it.
I once got harrassed by an Indian guard and when I complained to a Latino Supervisor about the harrassment, she expressed doubt that the guy could be discriminating because he was a minority himself.HUH!
Their racism is hidden and to me will have much worse effects than white racism in the long run.
Yeah, I'm the nice white person :) Articulate and everything!
Don't worry C1, since you are my old married woman cyber white boy crush, when the race war comes, I will protect you.
Wow, my girl just told me about this story yesterday, and what's funny is that I said that guy must be from mississippi. I was disgusted from what I heard, but she didn't give me all the details. The son is a punk ass bitch. How the fuck do you do that to your own daughter, and defend your father for killing your wife, the mother of your child, because she's black, wow that's a bitch move. I'm just speechless, I hope the father gets gang raped in prison without lube and then they finish him off with a broken broom stick. And the soon, somebody should fuck him up. I'm truley disgusted by this shit. Men who don't love their own babies don't deserve their penises.
JDR
This is outrageous. This man must have thought very highly of himself to think that he (someone who is probably a brown person himself) was too good to have a black person included in his family. And I honestly dont know what to say about the son. One thing is for certain he let his father have too much of a hold over his life, especially regarding his relationship with his child. I personally love my parents but I wouldnt value their opinions to the point where I would let it jeopardize my happiness.
Something very similar to this happened in Illinois. A man set his pregnant daughter's apartment building on fire killing her along with his 3 year old grand child and son in law. All because he didn't think the son in law was good enough. smh.
US: Indian sets daughter, family ablaze
And the madness continues. Seriously, things are going to get worse before they get better.
LA High School incident
"A man set his pregnant daughter's apartment building on fire killing her along with his 3 year old grand child and son in law. All because he didn't think the son in law was good enough. smh"
At the risk of stereotyping, burning is the Indian way. In the old old days if a man died they burnt his body and the widow alive.
Alot of passion crimes involve burning. In that region too they are fond of using acid. This types of stories will pop up occassionally in the states.
I'm usually all in favor of multiculturalism. Mostly because its effect on me is minimal, but I'm reminded here of a remarkably politically incorrect quote from a British general in British India.
General Napier -
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours"
I have a question: were the people hired to kill this young woman black?
Why are Blacks hated so much, I believe that we were the most beautiful inside and out and others never want us to go back there again. You don't hate something you could care less about.
Wow, my girl just told me about this story yesterday, and what's funny is that I said that guy must be from mississippi. I was disgusted from what I heard, but she didn't give me all the details. The son is a punk ass bitch. How the fuck do you do that to your own daughter, and defend your father for killing your wife, the mother of your child, because she's black, wow that's a bitch move. I'm just speechless, I hope the father gets gang raped in prison without lube and then they finish him off with a broken broom stick. And the soon, somebody should fuck him up. I'm truley disgusted by this shit. Men who don't love their own babies don't deserve their penises.
The son's reaction is just as chilling to me as the father's. How do you marry this woman, essentially guaranteeing her death because your parents are "a little racist" and then abandon the child she had for you, and go on about life in the way your parents wanted.
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This man must have thought very highly of himself to think that he (someone who is probably a brown person himself) was too good to have a black person included in his family.
Some people bring over their belief systems from their other country. In this caste the good old caste system. Marrying a black would be akin to lowering your class, and we couldn't have that. But murder is ok apparently, that doesn't affect your social status?
In terms of setting your family on fire because your son in law was of a lower caste, how crazy is that!!!!!!!!!
My husband has a co-worker who is Ethiopian, and he is married to a Indian woman, and they literally were married for two years and didn't tell anyone in either family, they were so scared each other's family was not going to accept each other. I thought that was so weird, but ironically when they came out with the truth (by having an elaborate wedding), no one seemed to be that upset LOL
Parental influence must be very heavy, I thought I had heavy parental influence, but I don't think they would ever try to kill me or set me on fire.
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And the madness continues. Seriously, things are going to get worse before they get better. LA High School incident
I don't understand why they couldn't get the yearbooks reprinted, we had an issue in Texas with a yearbook company pulling a joke (non racial) and the school was able to get it changed and reprinted. The sticker thing is a bit humiliating.
I'm usually all in favor of multiculturalism. Mostly because its effect on me is minimal, but I'm reminded here of a remarkably politically incorrect quote from a British general in British India. General Napier - "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours"
Wow, I understand culture and tradition, but I get his point. Burning widows is a bit excessive.
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I have a question: were the people hired to kill this young woman black?
Yes they were, apparently they offered him the best "hitman" rate. Blacks are ok when they work for you, after all his daughter in law was a former employee at his hotel, that is how his son met her, but to marry is a big no no.
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Why are Blacks hated so much, I believe that we were the most beautiful inside and out and others never want us to go back there again. You don't hate something you could care less about.
I don't get it either. I don't know exactly what we did to folks. We didn't steal any land, create wars, or enslave a group of people here in America and most other countries, but no matter where we go, we are hated.
Black women created civilization from their womb. Whites,browns,reds, and yellows realize this and are somehow ashamed that the video harlot, porn star, and careless mother now represents where we all came from. Sorry black women but somehow your crown is tarnished. As a black man I am probably partly to blame.
Black women created civilization from their womb. Whites,browns,reds, and yellows realize this and are somehow ashamed that the video harlot, porn star, and careless mother now represents where we all came from. Sorry black women but somehow your crown is tarnished. As a black man I am probably partly to blame.
We are careless mothers, video harlots, and porn stars? Why is it when white women are this, they are not tarnished, but yet we are, and statistically speaking we are not all video harlots, porn stars, or careless mothers, so why is it you are quick to believe in the stereotypes of black women to further demean them?
"Sometimes I think that black women should just colonize islands and hire male prostitutes to reproduce so that we can start a society in which people like black women. It seems there is no where in the world we can be appreciated."
Me too! I need a place besides Africa where I can be apperciated. :)
I hate this country. I need to move. I want to keep my status as the one of the few black women with low blood pressure. Is Canada any nicer?
It's offical. I do not like Indians.
"I don't get it either. I don't know exactly what we did to folks. We didn't steal any land, create wars, or enslave a group of people here in America and most other countries, but no matter where we go, we are hated".
This is a somewhat deep question. You don't have to do something to someone for them to abuse you. I see the hatred of blacks as a form of abuse.
I guess those that have studied anthropology, evolution or psychology may know exactly why blacks are hated.
It is well known that abusers pick on those that they perceive to be weaker than them. They are also coming from a victim state of some sort.
That is why I am convinced that the most racist whites are those that are underdogs in their own society in terms of wealth, genetics and looks. For looks, and maybe status, look no further than Imus.
The other minorities suffer from inferiority complexes that come out of the totem pole order and for the Indians, their Caste system says it all.
Blacks are in a very weak position in the global order so they are the victim of choice for everyone.
When people see a person with a victim status or mentality, they smell blood and they attack.
I am reminded of the Samburu in Kenya who have strict rules about not looking weak in the wild. One guy was attacked by a Lion and his friends ridiculed him because they said he always had a posture that potrayed weakness. Even the Animals sense it.
A classic example is the War in Iraq and the Bush Admin having a hard stance. They never want to be seen as weak. Most people instictively know this.
After the Rwanda genocide, guess who the International community was sympathetic to? The killer group. At the back of the minds in Western society there is the belief in "survival for the Fittest" theory.
In a nut shell, blacks are the perfect victim for every one. question is, for how long?
"It's offical. I do not like Indians".
Not so fast, go to East Africa and you will have more sound reasons.
Why are Blacks hated so much, I believe that we were the most beautiful inside and out and others never want us to go back there again. You don't hate something you could care less about.
Because we are envied that is why, we live in lands lush with riches and we don't realise it. We have beautiful men and women, and we don't realise and despite everything, the other races envy the relationship we have with white people, while they are willing to crawl. Black people don't. That is why we are hated. Whenever you see a black person, you see, where you come from, and the tremendous spirit we have and that scares the hell out of people.
I read lots of books written by South Asian writers and one gets the distinct impression that killing the bride if she's not of the right caste, religion, or gave sufficient dowry is a common practice. Indians also have color issues that rival our own issues as black people. If you go to an Indian shaddi/wedding site you will see a color chart(fair, wheatish, dark)etc. You're dealing with a culture that has had issues stemming from the Aryan invaders from the north eons ago and British Colonialism. Thus civil rights movement and black is beautiful movements can't compete.
Though this story is very sad/depressing I can't bring myself to despise all Indians now unlike some of the other posters. It's really not fair and you wouldn't appreciate it if someone else judged you based on what someone that you don't even know has done.
To add to what Grata said about, why black people are so hated throughout the world?
I believe that white people and other non-blacks know we are weak as a race, due to the fact, we are the least unified minority group. I mean, every other minority group I know, they work together because they know that's the only way they can be strong and not be precieved as weak. The world knows that black people have very little power, no strong leadership and no real sense of unity, as other minority groups have. So, it's easy to pick on us because they know there will be no real consquence when they do. We are the "whipping boy" of the world and other races are just lining up to get their licks in.
Until, black people wake up and stop infighting about who is; acting and talking white, or who is lighter or darker or whatever other nonsense we use to cause separation within our race. We will remain powerless, hated and disrespected by the world because people don't respect those who don't respect themselves or their own. Period.
"We have beautiful men and women, and we don't realise and despite everything, the other races envy the relationship we have with white people, while they are willing to crawl. Black people don't".
Felicity,
Interesting you mention the relationship with white people. I have heard minorities speak disparangily of the link btn blacks and whites. There was a controversial Chinese Oped columist, I think he was in Asia Weekly (or something like that) who was blasting whites for bending over backwards for blacks (like that is true). Then recently Iover at Field Negro's there was this Hispanic who was saying that they are not scared of blacks like the whites are. And some other nonsense to that effect. So it seems like while they want to shit on blacks, someone above them won't encourage it and so they are caught in a difficult position. Their dream is obviously to gain more power so they can properly oppress the black person.
I wonder why Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton didn't march to ensure that this "gentleman" got the death penalty. I'm very upset that a premeditated crime did not ensure that Rai gets the death penalty. If he is worthy to live, what would it take for him to have been sentenced to death? What more could he have done?
There is no love loss between Blacks and Indians. In Canada, my Black relatives CANNOT STAND Indians - ditto the UK. In Jamaica, because they are so outnumbered, they don't try anything stupid. Or they would get a royal beatdown!
African Americans better keep an eye on them, or they may try to overstep their bounds with you all.
African Americans better keep an eye on them, or they may try to overstep their bounds with you all.
I hear you. I don't think Black Americans should assume we have a racial alliance with anyone.
"There is no love loss between Blacks and Indians. In Canada, my Black relatives CANNOT STAND Indians - ditto the UK. In Jamaica, because they are so outnumbered, they don't try anything stupid. Or they would get a royal beatdown!"
African Americans have not experienced Indians. If you think Latinos are bad, observe the Indian in Africa. Those are the worst. No matter how PC you want to be, you can never like them. Basically they try to do the same things to Africans the colonial whites did. The Chinese are alot more respectful.
We had one who made his maid clean the floor by licking it. There was uproar and threats to kill them (the quickest way to justice in Africa).
There are ever growing anti Indian sentiments though they have learnt that they have to work with the natives by getting involved in community programs and improving their image. So they have learnt to kiss up to African ass. This is in one ocuntry though.
Recently I read about the expelled Zimbabwe white farmers that have resettled in other parts in Africa. One thing they agreed on was, it didn't help to build a racist system and given a chance they would do things differently. And they are working much better with the new communities they have settled in.
You can only shit on Africans for so long and you should have an exit strategy.
Obviously I can't speak to the entire population of black women being in the affore mentioned categories. However the more visible ones who fit those categories are all that other races see. Other races don't grow up in a black household with a single mom working two jobs and going to choir rehearsal on saturday, bible study on wednesday, and church all day sunday. Furthermore I don't say white or other women's crowns are tarnished because they are not the mother's of civilization. So they never had a crown to be tarnished.
I'm an Indian woman who doesn't share any of the beliefs that many Indians seem to share about black people. When I saw this story on CNN, I couldn't believe it. I felt sick, nauseous, disgusted by all of it. Chiman Rai deserves to rot in hell for a very long long long time. And I agree with you about his son Ricky. Where the hell is he??? It's disgraceful that after everything, he's abandoned his daughter to start a new life with his Indian wife. Sick.
I saw this story listed somewhere as an "honor killing" and thought to myself oh crap, wow, it is. It's the same psychotic mentality that's behind family members killing their daughters when they feel their "family honor" is under attack. I don't know what the hell is wrong with people that go to such crazy extremes, talking about honor, but killing makes it right?
sigh...
deep breaths...
"I don't see Indians becoming that much of a force, certainly not compared to the Hispanics".
There are about 2 million Indians in the US and they are not picking Lettuce and they have a successful Nuclear program in their homeland and have some of the richest men in the world. I would never underestimate them.
Britain's national dich is now some curry dish. If you go to London you wil know that they mean business. There are entire cities where you may think you are in India. One potential running mate for McCain is Indian.
In short, its not in the numbers but in the intensity.
This is beyond vile-it is inhuman. I was struggling with this story for several days and I was just filled with such sorrow and rage.
What is the point of such senseless killing because you don’t approve of their race? The son impotent --yet justifying his inaction and rationalizing his father’s vile and disgusting actions is even worse—because even he doesn’t see Sparkle or his own DAUGHTER as Human and worth some dignity and love.
I too will never understand the convoluted rationale as to why Blacks are hated so much. What purposes does hating with such impunity that it is better to kill us because you despise our race. As much as I struggle with Whites and racism from other minorities---I don’t know if I can ever truly see other non-Blacks the same way. I’ve never been one to nail my colors with other minorities—but this amply illustrates the unequivocal contempt other races have for Blacks. It is loathsome—it is beyond psychopathic.
I have scoured the net looking for some compassion regarding this story and all I saw was indifference, whites seeing that as proof as minority racism and just cultural relavvitism as part of the honor tradition. No one cares---especially because she was a Black woman. I wonder how different the reaction would be if Sparkle had been White—would people had put in any effort to care then.
As Black women—you have only yourself to protect —I guess being A strong Black woman is really the only way to survive--we really are truly alone.
Dear Siditty,
I was very sorry to hear about this case as I am Indian myself having come to this country when I was 7 years old. I am now 40. Please do not think that every Indian is a dumb racist. My heart goes out to this young lady and to her daughter and her parents.
I agree with all the posts about caste and a sub-culture in India that values a "milky complexion" over all else. Heck they even sell "whitening" (sic) creams in India, totally absurd. I can assure you that day to day contact is what is needed along with dialouge. I have had both good and bad experiences with people of color. Mostly good though. I see everyone as a human being first then anything else.
I know I probably won't change many people's minds but I have to try. I think the world needs to recognize not just White vs. Black Racisim but also Brown (hispanic) vs. Black, Asian (Yellow) vs. Black and yes Indian, Pakistani, etc. vs. Black. Indians can be just as racist as whites or blacks or hispanics. Its based on preception instead of reality.
Totally agree about "Ricky" Rai what a coward and a pussy. Don't worry I believe in Karma, what goes around comes around...
I just want to say how disgusted I am about the whole story. I an not an African American but I do come from a country where 1/2 the majority population is Indian, those whose ancestors were from India.
I know of these people their customs, religion, beliefs and huge colour prejudices.
I will say to African Americans, remember that these people are in your country. A country which you helped build into what it is today. America is what it is today because of your ancestors labour and life blood.
These people are like parasites. They come to the U.S, and enjoy all the priviledges, rights and legal equalities that your ancestors fought for and gave their lives to attain. They use their non-white minority status to access affirmative action initiatives, to help themselves become upwardly mobile. Then they cast scorn and disdain on the same people (African Americans) who have fought for these rights.
Another thing, why are African Americans acting as though they want to be accepted by this group? These people's culture is completely alien and unfamilar. I would think that it makes very little difference or has little impact on African Americans existence whether these people dislike black people or not. Black people should ignore these people and their prejudices. Your response should be indifference. Remember the U.S is your country. Do not let these recent arrivals displace you.
These people are resitant to change and still adhere to a pagan culture. Marriages are still arranged in India and partners are sourced from that country.
Indians use whatever resources they have acquired to build their own community and they do not share very much outside of their ethnic group. The concepts of service and "giving back" is not very well developed. They, in most part view others outside their community with suspicion.
In my view, what Indians would like, is to be viewed as white (white being the ruling elite) and to have their culture accepted, by white people, as having the same high status as Western culture.
Also, remeber the christian value system that most blacks suscribe to, is not the same value system for an Indian. Their religion, which imparts much of their values, is very foreign and in variance to Christianity. It is a totally alien religion with very strange rituals and practices. In Hinduism there are 1 million gods.
Indians have one of the largest immigrant diaporas world wide. What Indians should do is to try and develop India to the standards of the U.S. and also develop the social infrastrucure ( whereby every individual in India is respected and their humanity honoured) before they try and export the irrevelant cast prejudices, which they practice, to America.
Black people (who go back 3 generations or more) must remember that America is first and foremost their country and these people are largely aliens or 1st generation Americans.
Black people remember no one can annihilate God's creation and still "YOU RISE". God Bless America!!!
Lex are you from Trinidad?
In response to Lex's post:
I'm the Indian Girl Anonymous poster from above -
I can't lie, I was initially pretty angered by your post. But I took a few deep breaths and instead of fighting fire w/fire, I come to offer my opinion on your post and correct some statements you made as "facts."
First and foremost, spewing hatred against Indians is the same frame of mind that Chiman Rai (the father) had towards African Americans. It only perpetuates the ignorance towards races & cultures that are not ours, instead of bridging the gaps of communication and understanding. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how cliche that sounds.
Secondly, to uplight and offer inspiration to African Americans is one thing. But to offer such while criticizing, insulting another group is ludricrous to me... especially since you clearly stated that you're not even African American. You don't have to "step on" anyone to lift yourself up.
"These people are like parasites."
So where exactly does your hatred towards Indian stem from?
"The concepts of service and "giving back" is not very well developed."
You're totally wrong here. I don't know where you got this information from, but Indians and Indian Americans donate millions of dollars to ALL causes from political, educational, health care, etc. In my family alone, we're are supporters and contributors of everything from Amnesty International to Feed the Children to the Southern Poverty Law Center. So please, don't let your biased opinions of Indians allow you to spew false statements.
"In my view, what Indians would like, is to be viewed as white (white being the ruling elite) and to have their culture accepted, by white people, as having the same high status as Western culture."
India is an ancient civilization with a history of being invaded by Aryans (Hilter's obsession of the purest race, ring a bell?) in 1000 BC and the white British rule. Yes, it has some deep seeded issues with color that didn't just spring up overnight. It's stemmed in THOUSANDS of years of history.
"In Hinduism there are 1 million gods."
You're wrong here again. In Hinduism, there are 3 main Gods: Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the sustainer; and Shiva, the destroyer (primarily of evil). The "million" gods that you speak of I assume, is your way refering to various MANIFESTATIONS of the 3 main Gods. For example: Ganesh - the God with the elephant head (everyone seems to have this statue in their house, including Russell Simmons) is a manifestation to represent the removal of obstacles to attain prosperity.
No one seemed to mind when Indian music was mixed in w/hip hop to create some of the hottest beats. And might I add that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr followed many of Gandhi's principles. But I digress...
I understand that Sparkle Rai's case has brought about rage and anger in many of US. Myself included. But spewing generalized prejudiced comments towards another race or culture as "retaliation" only perpetuates the hatred that caused her death in the first place. In my opinion, that's a recipe for a neverending, downward spiral of ignorance, isolation and racism.
Me again, Indian Girl Anonymous Poster:
I wasn't going to mention this but I feel the need to. Here's a personal story of tragedy that occured to my family.
My cousin, 25 years old, was living in Jacksonville, Fl about 6 months ago. He went to the ATM at 2pm in the afternoon to withdraw money - $200. Two African American men approached him demanding his money. He said no, refused... thinking he works his ass off, why should he give anyone his hard earned money.
The 2 guys (assholes, animals) struggled with him, forced him into their van and drove him into a wooded area. Took him out of the van and put a GUN INTO HIS MOUTH, and shot him. Then they left. One in a million chance (God was with him), he survived. He managed to stumble onto the main road and dialled 911. But everything in his mouth (teeth, tongue, throat) was shattered. Through GPS, they located him.
SEVERAL surgeries later, he is alive and still recovering. He will NEVER be the same again. Our family will NEVER be the same again.
So based on this VERY PERSONAL experience, should I now refer to ALL African American people as animals, assholes or "these people?" Should I just keep my mouth shut (instead of saying something like I do) when his brother makes a racist comment about African American people because his little brother was nearly killed and permanently injured by 2 of them???
My answer is no. You all come up with your own answers.
No one seemed to mind when Indian music was mixed in w/hip hop to create some of the hottest beats. And might I add that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr followed many of Gandhi's principles. But I digress...
OK I am up, so I had to respond to this little tidbit. I am sorry why should I care if indian beats were mixed in with hip hop, if I am not mistaken both cultures take from each other. This video looks very "Thriller" inspired.
In terms of Gandhi, even though the Western media has lifted and exalted him, he wasn't ever a friend to black people. In matter of fact he was fighting for equality with whites, but felt blacks should stay in a lower status. He wasn't exactly completely peace loving.
I am not saying it is right to degrade and insult an entire race, but it isn't really nice to stereotype blacks as all hip hop lovers. Even though we create the music, we don't buy it or not all of us embrace it.
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, should I now refer to ALL African American people as animals, assholes or "these people?" Should I just keep my mouth shut (instead of saying something like I do) when his brother makes a racist comment about African American people because his little brother was nearly killed and permanently injured by 2 of them???
This story is completely different. The animals that did that to your cousins picked him out not for his race, but rather for money. This man on the other hand had the wife of his own son and his granddaughter he or his son have nothing to do with killed for $10K because her blackness was a shame. I don't understand how we can justify that. Black people are stereotyped as criminals all the time anyway, it wouldn't change if a few more people felt that way. I know that sounds cruel, but it is the truth. That is why even if your parents weren't ok with you dating a white guy and having children with you, they wouldn't kill you, but if you dated and married a black guy all hell would break loose and you would have to go into hiding. I have never heard of an indian family killing a white person their child married for fear of shame. Why is that?
My point in that quick comment about Indian music & hip hop, was not towards you Siddity per se, it was towards the "I hate Indian people" sentiments that have been expressed here. And it wasn't meant to be insulting to say that at least some of the people who made these comments, enjoyed the music that came out of the Indian & hip hop collaborations.
As for Gandhi, I don't consider him a saint. I consider no man a saint, including Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Both had their flaws, the latter being an adulterer. I don't agree with Gandhi's notion of keeping the "natives" down at all. But he wouldn't be the first person to fight solely for his people and his people alone.
"This story is completely different. The animals that did that to your cousins picked him out not for his race, but rather for money."
Acutally it was a combination of race (easy target - "you scrawny Indian kid") and money. But does that justify it any way? No. The end result is still that 2 African American guys nearly killed my cousin and permanently scarred (physically & emotionally) for life.
If you read my first post, I came here with disgust and disgrace for Chiman Rai did. Nowhere did I justify his actions. I was and am appalled & sickened by it. And quite frankly, I'm also disgusted by the fact that the hitmen being African American took Sparkle's life as an African American woman for a mere $10,000. Where's the outrage in that?! I'm thinking DAMN, this part of it is going to stand out for those that already view AA's in an unfavorable light.
"That is why even if your parents weren't ok with you dating a white guy and having children with you, they wouldn't kill you, but if you dated and married a black guy all hell would break loose and you would have to go into hiding. I have never heard of an indian family killing a white person their child married for fear of shame. Why is that?"
Where did you get this from? You're the one stereotyping now. I HAVE dated several black men that my parents knew about and yet I've never had to go into "hiding." My most significant relationship has been w/a black man and my closest friends are black. My parents and all Indians are not psycho like Chiman Rai. That's point you and others who want to equate all Indian people w/the action of 1 animal, seem to be missing.
No.I see where grata and lex are coming from. I really don't care that it offends--since no one cares about how Black people jusge them.
Blacks are NEVER given the benefit of the doubt—by any race. We are already judged and condemned before we even open our mouths—thus the shock of this story for me is not only was a Black women seen as not worthy but the blatant disgust with her race that sealed the deal for me and made me realize how lowly many non-Blacks feel about Blacks and especially Black women.
Blacks are always told that we have to accommodate for and make allowances for the actions of a few as not normal—yet average normal non-Black people are free to stereotype and belittle Blacks until we HAVE to prove to you all that we are worthy of not being considered an animal. We can’t make rash generalization about other groups—no sir-- because how dare BLACK people make any kind of comment about how they are treated in the wider global society when our position in the world hierarchy is beneath contempt.
Everyone has a story about how rotten Black people are—but when we try to tell OUR own stories—as usual we are told to shut up stop generalizing—who are we to talk—look at you on the bottom-who can barely scrap by in the world order.
Indians may have stereotypes—but they are nowhere in the vicinity of this universe that is coated with vitriol, disgust, debasement, contempt, and scorn that are reserved specially for Black people.
It is amazing to me how extraordinary and beyond ordinary an average Black person has to be before they are considered worthy of any kind of space with non-Black people—its just proves to me once again that Black women especially are tasked to walk alone—an d that we cannot rely on community or culture to protect us from the ever increasing litany of visceral contempt.
I was very upset and disturbed by the story. I'm African American I've been dating an Indian man for a year now and we love each other very much. He told me that his family disapproves of him dating a non-Indian person, but we're working through it. His parents are in India and have never been to the US let alone met a non-Indian person before.
My mother called me and told me this story while enroute with my boyfriend to Toronto to meet his brother and other friends from India.
Needless to say, I was scared shitless! I had to maintian my composure. Everyone was so nice to me and I knew that getting his brother's approval would definitely benefit me and my guy in the long run.
After I left Toronto by myself to go back to work, I couldn't stop thinking about poor sparkle and what if that was me.
I still have to entertain my boyfriend's brother for a few more days and at least I will be able to have some alone time with him so I can figure out where his head is at and perhaps his family's and make my decision as to which path I should take.
I know that Indian culture is complex, but I just hope that no one get hurt physically or emotionally if we decide to take our love for each other to the next level.
"Everyone has a story about how rotten Black people are—but when we try to tell OUR own stories—as usual we are told to shut up stop generalizing—who are we to talk—look at you on the bottom-who can barely scrap by in the world order".
Anonymous,
Very well said. When we speak of our experiences as they are, then we are responding to hatred with hatred and two wrongs don't make a right. In otherwords we are expected to suffer silently. How insulting is that?
If I point out the prejudice of the others, am I being prejudiced? This is the non black privilage, to blame the victim but when the victim exclaims then they are being prejudiced themselves. If that is so, then yes, I will be prejudiced and continue to expose the abuse by non black people.
If you read my first post, I came here with disgust and disgrace for Chiman Rai did. Nowhere did I justify his actions. I was and am appalled & sickened by it. And quite frankly, I'm also disgusted by the fact that the hitmen being African American took Sparkle's life as an African American woman for a mere $10,000. Where's the outrage in that?! I'm thinking DAMN, this part of it is going to stand out for those that already view AA's in an unfavorable light.
No one here denied outrage at the fact the people he hired to kill his daughter in law were black. What we are outraged about is the fact this man was so racist that he was willing to go to jail for it, even though he himself is a minority. That once again in this country there are people who are so quick to dislike the black people, who if not for the civil rights movement wouldn't even be here themselves. The outrage is that people do see AAs in an unfavorable light, regardless of the stats that say the majority of us are middle class working folks and not criminals, murderers, gang bangers, and hip hop celebrities.
Where did you get this from?
I got it from the fact I have never heard of a contract killing of a white spouse of an indian person here in this country. I have had indian people tell me they cant date IR and if they did, it better be with a white person and not a black person.
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Blacks are always told that we have to accommodate for and make allowances for the actions of a few as not normal—yet average normal non-Black people are free to stereotype and belittle Blacks until we HAVE to prove to you all that we are worthy of not being considered an animal. We can’t make rash generalization about other groups—no sir-- because how dare BLACK people make any kind of comment about how they are treated in the wider global society when our position in the world hierarchy is beneath contempt.
Nothing but truth there.
Everyone has a story about how rotten Black people are—but when we try to tell OUR own stories—as usual we are told to shut up stop generalizing—who are we to talk—look at you on the bottom-who can barely scrap by in the world order. Indians may have stereotypes—but they are nowhere in the vicinity of this universe that is coated with vitriol, disgust, debasement, contempt, and scorn that are reserved specially for Black people.
You hit the nail right on the head.
Rashida,
You should be fine, I am thinking your boyfriend has a bit more of a backbone than the victim's husband.
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Very well said. When we speak of our experiences as they are, then we are responding to hatred with hatred and two wrongs don't make a right. In otherwords we are expected to suffer silently. How insulting is that?
I don't get that either.
I've also been annoyed by the idea that black people as a group should be morally superior to their detractors at all times -- which I believe is an unforseen product of the Civil Rights movement. However, a lot of the hatred being spewed is based on bad old American prejudice/xenophobia that existed in some black Americans' hearts way before this horrible crime, in a manner akin to the backlash after the Latasha Harlins case. There's also a shrewd pragmatism on both sides, non-black minority and black; the lack of hesitance to throw other minority groups straight under the bus while seeking compromise and equitable co-existence with the dominant majority group, often under the guise of values like tolerance, that ought to be universally applicable to all groups, powerful or not, large or small.
That being said, when I was younger, I had a ton of hope when it came to non-black/non-white groups' perception of blacks. After all, they compose the true majority of people on earth, a lot of them have had negligible contact with blacks, for better or worse, and, like others, I had erroneously concluded that as a non-colonizing people, blacks had the equivalent of a "clean slate." I was disappointed to discover that lack of extended contact with blacks did not prevent them from being sold the standard bill of goods. However, I understand that other groups have unfortunate stereotypes as well -- "fanatical brown honor killers" is one of them, and I refuse to define Indian people by the actions of a select few -- actions that are highlighted by a media that thrives on the sensationalism that cheaply constructed ethnic caricatures provide. I saw the news coverage of the crime -- there was a serious mischaracterization of Indian culture as an impetus for the killing that was obvious to me, an outsider with some basic knowledge, and a sickening self-congratulatory tone strewn throughout that we've all seen before in different guises -- "Oh, look at those ethnic people, aren't they racist/sexist/homophobic/backwards/dysfunctional in comparison to us real Americans?" It was a damn shame what happened, and it's definitely not a good look for the son to bail on his kid like that, but racist nutjob Chinman Rai represents himself alone.
""fanatical brown honor killers" is one of them, and I refuse to define Indian people by the actions of a select few -- actions that are highlighted by a media that thrives on the sensationalism that cheaply constructed ethnic caricatures provide."
Tenacious,
You point is understood. Some of us have more exposure and experience living with Indians so we are not informed by the media. Sometimes the Western media is a convinient scape goat. But if you want to see the true nature of black/Indian relations, you travel to East Africa. My country has 1000s of students that go to Universtiy in India every year because of the cheap tuition. They report the same treatment. I have lots of peers that have spent atleast 5 years in India and on return they want nothing to do with Indians and are irked by their presence in the country.
Is this spreading hate or is it simply noting the reality of their attitude towards blacks especially Africans?
When an African travels to England, they are shocked by the humility of the Indians there because they are faced with discrimination in Europe and know better. So, this is not just coming from one crime that some of us were never even aware of.
Well said tenacious bree. You seem to be among the few here that isn't keen on the knee-jerk, visceral hateful reactions.
I'm not African American but I still found the actions of this man deplorable. However I'm not going to put all Indian people in the same boat based on the actions of this man, or the prejudices that some or many might have.
No one here denied outrage at the fact the people he hired to kill his daughter in law were black.
Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen anyone really express outrage that the men who actually killed Sparkle Rai were also African American.
"I'm not African American but I still found the actions of this man deplorable. However I'm not going to put all Indian people in the same boat based on the actions of this man, or the prejudices that some or many might have".
Maybe you should explain why when a black person points out the treatment they receive from other groups, they are labelled as prejudiced. Is this an attempt to shut us up so the abuse can continue to serve you and the system in which you are comfortable ?
Trying to pretend that prejudice and discriminition against blacks by non black minorities does not exist does not make it non existent. Actually this denial to me is typical of a person that believes in the present racial hierachy only that this is more sinister because you are trying to pass yourself off as very tolerant. And you are the kind that needs to be avoided at all costs, the liberal type that is actually more harmful to black progress.
The men who did the actual killing weren't motivated by her race but by greed. The point of this post was to point out the general animosity that (South)Asians have towards Blacks.
"Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen anyone really express outrage that the men who actually killed Sparkle Rai were also African American".
The men that pulled the trigger where criminals and killed because they were paid money to kill. Any criminal would do that to their own race. We know that with black on black crime.
I guess to you it would be okay for other races to keep killing blacks since they kill themselves! Is that the logic you are going by?
This is a nice attempt to neutralize Indian bigotry but it doesn't hold. The man that paid the men to kill, did so because the victim was black and "beneath" his social level.
His sole motivation to kill was his hatred for her race. Completely different motive from the killers. And in case you hadn't noticed, this forum is about defending black humanity especially from the impacts of racial prejudice.
I am an African American woman married to a Pakistani Man and his parents seem to like me pretty well, however my sister in laws do seem to have a little trouble accepting the fact that I am not "fair". This story hits home for me a little and from my experiances Black people in general are viewed at negativly by the rest of the world by the images projected to the world by the media as drug dealers, whores, and ghetto baby mamas. This is why Obama must be president. Not for what he is going to do for America but what he is going to do for hte image of black people around hte world. *taking a deep breath* We need to do better... we need to show ourselves as better, so that others think of as as more than what we have become.
grata, you seemed to be a hate filled person who wants to fight hate with more hate. black or not, i don't see where anyone was trying to avoid that this man who had his daughter in law killed was an asshole. but hate has you reading into comments what you want. good luck with that.
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