In the blogosphere there is an issue that keeps rearing it's ugly head. African vs. African American or black American. It seems that in the racial hierarchy of America there is a distinction even between those of the same color.
I am going to sound a bit racist, but it seems that white people prefer non American blacks to us native born folks is because they have less hang ups. They work hard and make something of their lives.They don't blame racism for everything. My response to this is usually,is as an African American I don't sit around in my corner depressed and sad, doing nothing while pointing out racism. On C1's blog, a commenter who I assume to be a white person was talking about positive thinking. He felt positive thinking would curb racism, and after all, his Jamaican friend was successful and moved up in corporate America just fine. As if no African Americans have ever accomplished this in the history of America, and every non native born black person is successful and is able to live amongst whites who forget that they are black. What irked me more was the people, of course those who weren't native blacks or native blacks who have not lived in America for years jumping to this man's defense and understanding the concept of positive thinking as a cure to racism.
I've seen whites who feel that non American born blacks are better than regular blacks because of their hard work ethic, which us regular american blacks don't possess and they are easier to date, less hang ups, as they don't see racism, or it doesn't seem to bother them. Which in some cases, I think that to be true.
Then you have the non American born blacks who feel due to their color and their status in the racial hierarchy in this country, feel the need to stereotype how American blacks think, like we are some homogeneous group. We all think the same, do the same things, and have the same issues. We are all complaining, being lazy, and living in squalor, and when we manage to fit outside that stereotype, we are stuck up and classless people.
I've even seen people ask the silly questions of "Why do American blacks.....(insert stereotype here)"
How does one get rid of these perceptions. Why are so many so quick to embrace the non American blacks are better attitude or thought that is prevalent among non black people and non native black americans? It seems that it happens often.
62 comments:
I've heard many white people in private say "you don't have to worry about so and so, they are from Africa" My guess is they think that if someone is here from Africa they must have worked hard to get here and are the cream of the crop. They won't be robbing white folks or anything like that. It's also probably the reason you have so much non black support for Obama, he's not African American, so people look at him differently.
I've heard many white people in private say "you don't have to worry about so and so, they are from Africa"
I've heard that at times from Africans I went to college with. That they were different than me, and therefore whites liked them better than they ever could me because I as an American black was lazy, with no motivation, and whatever other stereotype we have floating about African Americans.
The thing is I am sure many immigrants who come here work hard, but I also know not all of them have broken through corporate America, and that not all have been able to "rise above" racism in each and every case where it occurs. I think that is my complaint because sometimes I think whites and non native blacks believe the hype.
I agree, Obama is where he is because he isn't African American in the traditional term. He is better than a former slave. Much like Colin Powell was a champion of the Republican Party, as he wasn't a "regular" black, he came from hard working immigrant parents, and us regular african americans know nothing of work, even though for centuries we worked and helped build the country for free.
A) That being a reason there is white support for Obama would be valid were it not for the Rev Wright issue. In conservative white circles, that solidified his american Blackness. That, and his wife.
B) As to the question as to why Whites tend to think Africans are OK or safe, thats fairly easy. Speaking generally (I've been getting raosted for my sweeping statements), and in my experiance it is all a factor of white guilt. Most whites assume that all black people hate them. This makes them "scary" socially (this includes dating). It is often assumed that this white hatred is not as strong, or existant among immigrants or non-Americans... hence less scary.
Most white people, or people in general, do not have the gumption or desire to forge through situations where they assume they are not wanted.
Speaking generally (I've been getting raosted for my sweeping statements), and in my experiance it is all a factor of white guilt. Most whites assume that all black people hate them.
Does their white guilt give them the idea that black people hate them, or is it personal experience?
I would say an interpretation of both.
When one assumes anything, it is easy to back it up with your interpretation of your own experiance. That is how you get media biasses, Poor scientific studies, etc. etc.
When a person assumes they are not liked, any interraction that is less than stellar will be logged as proof that the assumption was correct. Especially when interracial interraction is limitted, which it is terribly limitted for the majority of white people, each specific interraction becomes more important and more exaggerated for that individual. They start to collect anecdotal evidence that they then spread to their friends, and on, and on....
That being a reason there is white support for Obama would be valid were it not for the Rev Wright issue. In conservative white circles, that solidified his american Blackness. That, and his wife.
It does seem the Rev. Wright issue made Obama like "the others"
When one assumes anything, it is easy to back it up with your interpretation of your own experiance. That is how you get media biasses, Poor scientific studies, etc. etc.
Very true, you perceptions and assumptions create your reality a lot of the time.
"In conservative white circles, that solidified his american Blackness. That, and his wife."
LOL! I agree. His wife definitely makes him African American. I am amazed how in certain circles they are denying him of being African American. The guy knows nothing of Kenya and has grown up as a black person in America. To me that makes him AA.
"Much like Colin Powell was a champion of the Republican Party, as he wasn't a "regular" black, he came from hard working immigrant parents, and us regular african americans know nothing of work, even though for centuries we worked and helped build the country for free."
Collin Powell is a former slave. I believe Kenya got one of the most oppressive colonial systems and the Luos (of which Obama's father was) lost their land to the British and were turned into quasi slaves. There recent Kenyan conflict between the Kikuyus and the Luos is a result of Luo land being taken and given to the Kikuyus after the British took Kikuyu land. So even on his African side Obama's people were as oppressed as anyone and we are still seeing the after effects.
He grew up in America black, I don't see how much more proof people need.
This reminds me of a discussion I had with my roommates when I was in college at Princeton. There were four us women that lived together. My roomate J. was Chinese American, my roomate R. was white American, my roomate A. was from Singapore, and I am a black American. We were hanging out in our room one evening, and my roommates said that the African students get along better on campus than the African American student because the African students "don't get mad at every little thing."
Of course, I replied that what might seem "little" to one person could be very "big" to another person. Also a response to a "little" incident really could be the culimination of a lifetime of dealing with "little" things. Unfortunately, the rest of discussion wasn't very fruitful. My roommates still maintained their opinion and preference for the African students.
It also seemed to me that all of the International students at Princeton were held up on a pedestal, not just the African ones.
"Most whites assume that all black people hate them. This makes them "scary" socially (this includes dating). It is often assumed that this white hatred is not as strong, or existant among immigrants or non-Americans... hence less scary."
Some White guy I knew told me that. He said he gets on with Africans because he knows they hate him less.
There is white guilt and there is black anger. These two are a terrible combo.
White guilt is interesting, I have met many whites that act charitably because they need to absolve it. It gets quite uncomfortable for me as an African when I realize that, that is what they are doing. Because then I am taking advantage of someone's guilt and secondly, they shouldn't be seeking redemption from me.
This happens alot especially in the work environment. Sometimes I feel that non native blacks do get in the way of America's healing process. When a white person reaches out and helps an African, in their mind, they are mending and bettering race relations yet the real victim has not been addressed.
Most Africans don't understand the real dynamics of race relations and so when they receive such kindness from whites, they see them as the good ones and the native blacks as the difficult ones. One that hasn't grown up in this environment can not understand the nuances of race relations. They judge by their immediate experience.
I however know better because afew times I have been critical of my white relations and I get the same treatment given to black Americans. If you are black and foreign, you are only as good as your sensitivity to race relations.
I can't say I like Much about Rev. Wright at all but I still support Obama. Obama was raised by whites and my guess is he can say things from that perspective as well, it's probably what gave him his ability to appeal to a white and black electorate that are so different.
"We were hanging out in our room one evening, and my roommates said that the African students get along better on campus than the African American student because the African students "don't get mad at every little thing."
That is the biggest mistake people make. Just because someone says something offensive and I don't react does not mean I am not mad.
I know so many Africans getting on with their lives and on the surface it appears like its all good and they are happy and not mad at whatever injustices come to being black.
Most Africans I know are acutely aware but what saves them is their sense of identity. They know from the get go that they can never assimilate into white society and feel no need to. That is one major problem solved right there.
They know that with a good education they can get a career going despite the obstacles and at the end of it know they have a home where they control and own their environment. Those Africans that don't follow that mode of thinking end up extremely frustrated.
Those I know refuse to buy into many Western standards like beauty, social life, spending and entertainment because they know they are different and appreciate the way they are different and therefore have no real need for affirmation from main stream white society.
When someone says something racist in my presence, they are most likely to get little reaction from them because I almost always expect it. I just keep my distance thereafter. To me that is the nature of this society. If they cross a crucial line then I may have to respond and it won't be pretty.
We accept that majority of non black people are racist and are not about to change soon. And besides, look at Africa, racist people are really not a priority given the challenges that we have. If they get in the immediate way of our progress then they can be confronted otherwise the focus is on immediate survival.
If a non black or non black American person ever tells me how to deal with racism I'll cuss them out. That pisses me off.
I don't expect anyone who comes to this country to be on "team black people".
Can't gain assimilation by befriending black Americans. Assimilation is gained it by stepping us.
I get what you are saying. I wasn't made aware of this problem until a few years ago. I was acutally surprised because in America it seems like it doesn't matter were you are from...as long as you look black you are black.
I was born in Nigeria, but was raised in Cali for most of my life. I have black friends and have never thought I was better then them because I was born in another country. I think its crazy that there are people that can come to another country and assume they know the history of a group of people when they don't know sh**.
I don't think that I am treated any differently because I am from another country. People don't usually know I from Nigeria until I tell them. Heck, my parents have some times felt discriminated against by some people.
I will say that some non black americans who have not lived in america for a long time probably will deal with american racism differently simply because they were not raised dealing with it.
I have not personally come across another non american black person who felt like they were better then black americans. But if I ever do, I will call that person out for sounding like a complete idiot.
I really think its unfair to say that non black Americans have some sort of superior complex without looking at the superior complex that some black Americans have towards non black americans.
Not to stray too much from the orininal topic, but I did get made fun of by some black people because I was from Africa. I was asked some crazy questions by many people, black and white, when they found out I was from another country. I remember when I was like 9, some girl got mad at me for something and told me to go back to the country I came from. Some times I also got the impression that being called African was a bad thing. Like "you look African."
I feel think that there is a mutal ignorance among black americans and non black americans due to the lack of exposure.
However, I do think that because of the media non black americans have more of an exposure to black american culture. But when it comes to other black cultures, most black americans are clueless. I don't eat soul food...I eat fufu :)
I think that this whole black vs black is so pathetic and sad. What is the point of fighting each other when we should really be fighting white supremacy. Because to some people an N is an N no matter where they come from.
I think the best way to get rid of these pereceptions is through education.
"I don't expect anyone who comes to this country to be on "team black people".
Not to worry. Not many are that eager anyway.
Maybe white people think African-born blacks are better than those born domestically because of their ideas about Africa? I don't know how well I can articulate this, so bear with me.
A. Most of the current images of Africa presented in America are of starving babies and their dying parents covered in flies, people like Robert Mugabe, or "Hotel Rwanda"-style genocide.
B. In "Western" countries/nations, non-white people in foreign countries are historically presented as needing saving from themselves. Africa's portrait is painted particularly savagely: nothing good came from Africa until Europeans got there and it's gone to hell in a hand basket since they left.
C. We (Americans) for the most part see our country as the "Land of Opportunity." How much opportunity, the quality of that opportunity, and who opportunities are available to are debatable.
...so maybe when Africans come to America and succeed, they are seen as being more "grateful" for the opportunity to "make something" of themselves because their only alternative would involve AIDS, the Janjaweed, bones in the noses, death by hippo/lion/bull shark,etc.?
This renders black Americans the negative foil to their shining example of determination and hard work--the essence of the American/Puritan belief in pulling one's self up by the bootstraps. If we do not achieve the same success, we are seen as not capitalizing on advantages we were born with because we don't appreciate our ancestors being "rescued" from a gentile/primitive/uncivilized lives that were destined to end in certain doom or the advances made during the Civil Rights Era, which we all know fixed everything. There is no "incentive" for us to achieve because we're "spoiled."
The perceived failure is seen as proof of the dumb/lazy stereotype ascribed to us (nevermind that had more to do with the prevalence of hookworm in the south than anything else) and is compounded by what is summarized as "black (American) culture" (gangster rap, BET, etc.)
If Africans have little or no exposure to "black culture," they aren't "tainted" by the negative aspects of it (laziness, ghettofabbalousness, anger at white people, and the like). This puts them more in line with white America than us, so they're better/more likable?
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As for my own personal experience with black Africans, they are limited to:
1. A very mean substitute teacher from Nigeria in elementary school. She was very angry and I think it had little to do with us 4th graders. It was far beyond the "you're working my last nerve" anger.
2. The married Liberian man my cousin's hairdresser (also Liberian) chased away from me while I was sitting under a hair dryer. Apparently, his wife was back home waiting on a visa and he had a thing for "light-skinned, long-haired girls." I wanted to laugh about being called that (I guess fairness and long hair are relative), but I'd already offended her by not eating when I was offered food and she had something hot near my head.
I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to venture a guess on their perspective of the whole thing.
Kala and Grata took the words right out of my mouth. The Africans I know don't come to this country ready to treat American blacks like crap. I think it's their negative experiences with American blacks, and the ignorance on both parts that has lead to this stalemate. Both sides need to be educated about each other. Both sides need to realize their common identity. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
No, Africans see the racism just as much as Afro-Americans do !!! Trust me. White people in the states probably just feel the bagage of slavery when with afro-americans.
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SIDDITY:I've heard that at times from Africans I went to college with. That they were different than me, and therefore whites liked them better than they ever could me because I as an American black was lazy, with no motivation, and whatever other stereotype we have floating about African Americans.
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What kind of African people are saying this ? :-O. All the Africans i know only have good things to say about afro-americans unless they are talking about Rap Music and the "hood". Infact my Mum used to tell me that Afro-Americans did not like Africans because we let them get sold off at slaves. Which completely depressed me as i was && when she told me this.
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TITLE: Just because we share a complexion does not mean we share the same culture
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Yes true but i notice that black people share this kind of "link"...For example: When we are in a place where black people are scarce we tend to acknowledge the other black person in the room ? or when we are walking down the street we give eachother smiles ? Or maybe this is just Belgium !!!
But i notice that we call eachother sisters and brothers. I got called a sister by someone in London and he was from Jamaica !!! And the same thing happened when i was in New York and they didn't seem to care that i was African and not AA. :-D
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BOOM SAID: If a non black or non black American person ever tells me how to deal with racism I'll cuss them out. That pisses me off.
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Yup, that pisses me off too.
Collin Powell is a former slave. I believe Kenya got one of the most oppressive colonial systems and the Luos (of which Obama's father was) lost their land to the British and were turned into quasi slaves. There recent Kenyan conflict between the Kikuyus and the Luos is a result of Luo land being taken and given to the Kikuyus after the British took Kikuyu land. So even on his African side Obama's people were as oppressed as anyone and we are still seeing the after effects.
Colin Powell was born in America, and I thought his parents were Jamaican?
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We were hanging out in our room one evening, and my roommates said that the African students get along better on campus than the African American student because the African students "don't get mad at every little thing."
So your roommates ideals are that American blacks whine and complain for no reason? I don't get that. Maybe other groups or races of people are ok with dealing with stupidity and ignorance, but why should things that upset others be dismissed, simply because they can't or refuse to see it.
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Most Africans don't understand the real dynamics of race relations and so when they receive such kindness from whites, they see them as the good ones and the native blacks as the difficult ones. One that hasn't grown up in this environment can not understand the nuances of race relations. They judge by their immediate experience. I however know better because afew times I have been critical of my white relations and I get the same treatment given to black Americans. If you are black and foreign, you are only as good as your sensitivity to race relations.
Grata,
So I guess it is easier for those with white guilt to reach out to those who have no real idea of race relations because the non american blacks seem to be more open, and less hateful. This is so crazy to me.
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I can't say I like Much about Rev. Wright at all but I still support Obama. Obama was raised by whites and my guess is he can say things from that perspective as well, it's probably what gave him his ability to appeal to a white and black electorate that are so different.
I think Obama makes a good candidate because he is "safe", he understands white people, he doesn't seem to hate them like the "others", plus he had a white woman as a mother, so he is viewed as being less likely to berate and attempt to reverse the racism that has been going on since the country's inception.
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Can't gain assimilation by befriending black Americans. Assimilation is gained it by stepping us.
Very true.
I really think its unfair to say that non black Americans have some sort of superior complex without looking at the superior complex that some black Americans have towards non black americans. Not to stray too much from the orininal topic, but I did get made fun of by some black people because I was from Africa. I was asked some crazy questions by many people, black and white, when they found out I was from another country. I remember when I was like 9, some girl got mad at me for something and told me to go back to the country I came from. Some times I also got the impression that being called African was a bad thing. Like "you look African."
Kala,
I am going by my personal experiences and the blogosphere. The "non American blacks are better" stereotype runs amuck online, on many of the blogs I read. Someone asked why american blacks were so rude and mean to each other and were non American blacks in their home country similar. Heck there was someone just yesterday talking about how"bourgeois" American blacks are online and in real life.
I have seen white men on some blogs blatantly say they prefer to date non American black women because they have "less hang ups", and I have seen many non American blacks concur with that evaluation, and saying they are better for white men to date than American blacks.
I was told to go back to Africa growing up on a consistent basis by white kids. I would then proceed to tell them to go back to Europe they had issues with me, as I was born in America. Being called "african" to some is a bad thing because anything that is less white, even in the black community is seen as a negative. Our perceptions of Africa come from National Geographic. I grew up thinking Africa was some vast desert and jungle with nothing but a bunch of primitive tribes, in which no one has been exposed to the "outside" world and all the woman ran around topless. "The God's Must Be Crazy" sealed the deal for a lot of Americans, regardless of race. Here in America , in the black community light skinned and good hair is praised, the less "african" you look, the prettier you are.
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...so maybe when Africans come to America and succeed, they are seen as being more "grateful" for the opportunity to "make something" of themselves because their only alternative would involve AIDS, the Janjaweed, bones in the noses, death by hippo/lion/bull shark,etc.? This renders black Americans the negative foil to their shining example of determination and hard work--the essence of the American/Puritan belief in pulling one's self up by the bootstraps. If we do not achieve the same success, we are seen as not capitalizing on advantages we were born with because we don't appreciate our ancestors being "rescued" from a gentile/primitive/uncivilized lives that were destined to end in certain doom or the advances made during the Civil Rights Era, which we all know fixed everything. There is no "incentive" for us to achieve because we're "spoiled."
You definitely made some interesting points. I hate the whole "pick yourselves up by the bootstrap" mentality so many people tend to have. It denies the concept of white privilege and seems to pretend the history of this country with race and racism does not exist. That and the dumb/lazy stereotype. There was a time that black people in this country could get killed for knowing how to read and education was limited to going to Christian church on Sundays, as school was forbidden. I hate also it is insinuated that slavery saved us and allowed us to be born American vs. African. As if America is so superior. I think many people believe in Pat Buchanan's view of slavery in this country. It was an opportunity, not a human rights violation. Again we should put a positive spin on things, and dwell on the negative.
2. The married Liberian man my cousin's hairdresser (also Liberian) chased away from me while I was sitting under a hair dryer. Apparently, his wife was back home waiting on a visa and he had a thing for "light-skinned, long-haired girls." I wanted to laugh about being called that (I guess fairness and long hair are relative), but I'd already offended her by not eating when I was offered food and she had something hot near my head.
I experienced this as well, this man I used to work with would steady hit on me and call me beautiful and say I look more indian than black, and talk about how he had needs, and even though he had a wife back home, he needed companionship while he was in the process of trying to bring her over. I also at this same company worked with a white woman who had two kids from an African guy who was married to an African woman, she was so sure he was going to leave his wife for her, and she worked hard to keep him, she went broke funding his lifestyle while she was struggling and living a in trailer.
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No, Africans see the racism just as much as Afro-Americans do !!! Trust me. White people in the states probably just feel the bagage of slavery when with afro-americans
That could very well be the case, or like Grata said, they might not react to a racist situation, but they still get mad, they just keep their distance from the person who said or did such things.
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What kind of African people are saying this ? :-O. All the Africans i know only have good things to say about afro-americans unless they are talking about Rap Music and the "hood". Infact my Mum used to tell me that Afro-Americans did not like Africans because we let them get sold off at slaves. Which completely depressed me as i was && when she told me this.
The first person who told me this was Ethiopian.The others who told me this were I believe from Nigeria. I can't remember to be honest, I was just floored. I honestly had this idea that they were black like me, I should be inclusive. I think my line of reasoning for thinking they thought like me was completely flawed. I was wrong for thinking black people are one big homogeneous group, with the same views and thoughts on racism.
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Yes true but i notice that black people share this kind of "link"...For example: When we are in a place where black people are scarce we tend to acknowledge the other black person in the room ? or when we are walking down the street we give eachother smiles ? Or maybe this is just Belgium !!!
We do that here too, not so much in Dallas, which many black people are critical of, but in other areas, if you see another black person you are supposed to nod and wave. My husband used to joke about this all the time. He felt it was so strange, as he didn't feel the need to connect with random white strangers, like I did with other blacks. Of course it could be I see so few at times I just get excited to see someone who looks like me.
Colin Powell is of Jamaican descent.
I worry that blacks who think that because they are from Africa or Caribbean so they are better -those types are on a wrong path.
for one thing, they are promoting the white supremist system whether they know it or not.
for another, they are destroying a potential alliance that could be more truer than say the alliance between a white "boss" type of person to a non-Amer. black.
Its just divide and conquer all over again.
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BTW -Siditty, I hope I didn't offend you with my comments at C-1s blog.
What you said:
"Very true, you perceptions and assumptions create your reality a lot of the time."
was what I was trying to convey. And it doesn't work all the time and to all people, i know.
Kala,
"I am going by my personal experiences and the blogosphere. The "non American blacks are better" stereotype runs amuck online, on many of the blogs I read. Someone asked why american blacks were so rude and mean to each other and were non American blacks in their home country similar. Heck there was someone just yesterday talking about how"bourgeois" American blacks are online and in real life.
I have seen white men on some blogs blatantly say they prefer to date non American black women because they have "less hang ups", and I have seen many non American blacks concur with that evaluation, and saying they are better for white men to date than American blacks.
I was told to go back to Africa growing up on a consistent basis by white kids. I would then proceed to tell them to go back to Europe they had issues with me, as I was born in America. Being called "african" to some is a bad thing because anything that is less white, even in the black community is seen as a negative. Our perceptions of Africa come from National Geographic. I grew up thinking Africa was some vast desert and jungle with nothing but a bunch of primitive tribes, in which no one has been exposed to the "outside" world and all the woman ran around topless. "The God's Must Be Crazy" sealed the deal for a lot of Americans, regardless of race. Here in America , in the black community light skinned and good hair is praised, the less "african" you look, the prettier you are."
For any non american black person to really come to america and then bitch about how lazy say other stupid stereotypes is just crazy. Its called the Civil Rights Movement. To just ignore the positve aspects of black people in America is ignorant. They probably wouldn't even be able to get an education in this country had it not been for the black people in the past.
Even for someone that does not live in america to make borad generalizations about the people that live here is just ignorant.
BUT, the generalizations come from BOTH sides. You hit in right on the nail with how africa was presented to you. Just like black american people can be frustrated that people will assume they are uneducated lazy bums...non black american people from africa can be just as frustrated by people thinking they are uncivilized, live in huts, run around naked, and all speak swahili.
Oh, and I love The Gods Must Be Crazy :) :) but I never saw it as a representation of africans. I have no idea why some people thought they could speak in "clicks" after seeing the movie. LOL.
To go back to the perceptions some non black amerians have about black americans, I really do think many of the people making assumptions are just speaking out of ignorance because of their lack of exposure to non black americans.
Due to the media representaions of black americans, which is viewed by many around the world, many non black americans will proabably have a skewed and narrowed view of black americans. But the same can be said about the meida representation about africa.
I really do think that both black americans and non black amerians need to educate each other about their culture as opposed to thinking they know everything
about each other.
And when it comes to some white men saying they prefer non black american women than black american women...I usually don't care about the preferences people have...as long as people don't bash what they do not prefer.
I don't know if the preference for non black american women by some white men can be because some think that they are just more culturally compatible with non black americans.
Many black american women are still aprehensive about getting in an IR. And I still hear many black women say that culure is a big reason for why they do not think they could ever be with white men.
However, for those who are opened to IR, its really unfair to assume that those black women are going to have "hang ups." I have a feeling the white men who say that just don't want black people to remind them of their white priviledge so they won't have white guilt.
It's clear the people of the negro persuasion are NOT the same culturally. You have Black Amerian, Black Afrian, Black people from Latin America, Black people in Europe, Black people from Canada, Black people from the Carribean, etc....yet some how according to some people we're all the same.............
Non-American blacks dont have impressively strong work ethics - immigrants across the board do. When's the last time you ever heard tell of a lazy immigrant of ANY color? I'm sure 'the old country' be it in the West Indies and Africa has plenty of lazy Negroes in it.
You've inspired me to blog about this, I hope I have the patience to untangle it even more...
@ brohammas:
I don't hate white people! Some of my best friends are white people!
I kid, I kid.
But for real, I don't let my white friends pull that "white guilt" crap with me. You either drink/dance/talk noise/bowl/hang out with me or kick rocks. I'm no magical Negro and am not here to be a source on Black people.
If they want to talk race and actually attempt to understand and learn something, then I'm cool with that.
"A. Most of the current images of Africa presented in America are of starving babies and their dying parents covered in flies, people like Robert Mugabe, or "Hotel Rwanda"-style genocide.
B. In "Western" countries/nations, non-white people in foreign countries are historically presented as needing saving from themselves. Africa's portrait is painted particularly savagely: nothing good came from Africa until Europeans got there and it's gone to hell in a hand basket since they left."
AAs who believe in this image of Africa treat Africans poorly.
Why wouldn't White Americans treat these wretches the same? Just quetioning that particular premise about Africans being more likeable because of the dire conditions they come from.
And by the way from personal expericence, I have found whites to have a much more realistic picture of Africa than African Americans. Its the media that carries those images but your average white person is much more informed. The most ignorant things are said by non whites. Its the extreme white racists that may hang onto the bone in the nose type of things for their purpose. Sensible and educated whites no much better.
And surprise, I don't know of an African tribe that has bones in their noses. Not that they don't exist, I just don't know of any. The people who do this are New Guineans located North of Australia.
"TITLE: Just because we share a complexion does not mean we share the same culture"
I think Africans know this more than anyone. In any given country there are numerous cultures and hence we have tribalism. Skin color means nothing in Africa in terms of bonding. Its beginning to feel the same for me in America.
I've read this post and others like it and my response is first of all, who cares what white people think. I know that I don't. I think that there are some non American born blacks who are and snotty toward African Americans but I think that this stems from ignorance more than anything else. People also have to realize that sometimes the only exposure that people from other cultures have of African Americans is through television and music. The images of black people in the MSM are largely negative. Also, alot of times African Americans can be very ignorant about other cultures, particularly in regards to Africa. I know when I was a growing up, all I heard about Africa was negative stuff. It was only through reading that I found out the truth. I think that the divisions between American blacks and native Africans and Caribbeans is stupid. It's foolish for us to be fighting each other for some crumbs off the white man's (and woman's) table. For those of you who disagree with me, I ask you this: Did being born outside of America help Amadou Diallo or Abner Louima? No, it did not because in America black skin is all that is required in the end to garner you life threatening injuries or 40 bullets simply for breathing. Just my take on the situation.
"Colin Powell was born in America, and I thought his parents were Jamaican"
Kenya was in reference to Obama. My sentences were screwed.
"So I guess it is easier for those with white guilt to reach out to those who have no real idea of race relations because the non american blacks seem to be more open, and less hateful. This is so crazy to me".
It makes perfect sense. Why deal with someone that is angry. No one wants to deal with an angry person.
I myself have learnt to avoid people based on an anger vibe I get. When I first came I went out of my way and got burnt afew times. I was once blasted by a black girl at the bus stop when I asked her for the time. I have had a few real angry blacks confront me for trivial things. Once it was a postal worker that went crazy on me because he gave me tape to use and later wanted me to pay for it. I thought it was postal tape for public use. He wouldn't reason at all and he started yelling. There was only one other person. I doubt he would have treated a female of another race the same way. After such and other countless ones, I don't initiate conversations just to avoid drama.
Just today I was picking up my sister from the Airport and was ripped off by those shared vans people. And this is the second time. First time the guy charged me $35 instead of 11. I found out later the real price. Today they charged both of us $40 total and I know for sure the price hasn't gone up by 9 bucks. I doubt they rip the European tourists the same way because its from them I get the right price. SO such experiences do make even an African extremely cautious when dealing with AAs. ANd I do have good AA workmates turned friends but you have to understand that many Africans are going through this kind of stuff and its what shapes their views. Just like you wouldn't trust your personal information with a Nigerian because of the internet scams. SO Africans are not just being as racist but may be basing their attitudes from real personal experiences.
My parents are from West Indies and they never ever believed the stereotypes about black Americans. The longer they've lived here, the more they learned about American race relations and white supremacy. So whoever thinks that black foreigners are somehow more easygoing is delusional and only serves to pacify white guilt.
I have to agree with what Grata said, that the only thing that has help immigrants survive such as my parents is our culture and sense of identity, and the fact that we have a homeland to fall back on.
Siditty Asks
How does one get rid of these perceptions. Why are so many so quick to embrace the non American blacks are better attitude or thought that is prevalent among non black people and non native black Americans? It seems that it happens often.
Ehav's Response
Some of it could be that the most mouth pieces for African Americans are creating a picture of a American black monolith that is made up of these things.
1) Slavery
2) Poverty
3) Crime
4) Racism
5) Anger
6) Light skinned vs Dark skin issues
7) Gangster or Pimp rap
8) Video Vixens
9) Football, Basketball, track
So essentially, because this is how some blacks who have the most vocal access to media portray the "black American" experience this is what is on the minds of people who keep up with the media.
If I had never met an African American before, and I simply knew about them based on what I see in the media that is the impression I would get. Another issue is the whole idea that all African Americans are the same idea. I.e. when people who are black talk as if all American blacks have the same culture, and that their history starts at American slavery. For example, I never understood why "some" African Americans feel like they have to accept responsibility for blacks who do evil things, like gang members, drug dealers, pimps, etc.
Living over seas I can tell you that this is the perception I get. This even though I grew up in America. I grew up in a closed off community so we considered ANYTHING outside of neighborhood to be outside of our culture. I was shown as a kid that I should only relate to those people and things that match my own morality, and anyone who doesn't I stay away from. I also don't allow people to make conclusions about me. They can internally believe what they want, but the minute they say it I rebuke their false concepts. I don't allow ANYONE to come to incorrect conclusions about me, and I will fight them tooth and nail on it till I win. I am my own man and I make my own destiny, and to date no one has been able to stop me. That is in part because my family taught me how, and I learned on my own how.
If more African Americans formed physical communities, and shielded those communities from outside influences this would change some things. If said communities then developed their own culture, and utilized a language i.e. lets say they spoke Swahili, as an example, and said traditions were passed on to their children this would change another aspect of it. If said children went out and recreated said physical communities by marrying and moving in close proximity to like mind people, this would change another aspect. If African Americans who have lots of money, and are doing the above, used that money to take over and create their own media reflecting their own reality, this would change another part of it.
Essentially, change like this only happens when like minded people are living out and promoting the reality that they desire.
I agree with the things Grata has been saying on this. I think also having a language, separate from English and a country that is your home country is a part of the identity issue.
When I lived in the US I was considered different by both Euro-Americans and some African Americans because I spoke Hebrew and English, and when I was kid also French. I also traveled overseas and everyone knew I was eventually going to move permanently here to Israel. My family, on my father's side was always considered different because of how they lived and they were multi-lingual. They also lived in a Turkish and Latin environment until my father was a teen.
Siddity Wrote:
The first person who told me this was Ethiopian.The others who told me this were I believe from Nigeria. I honestly had this idea that they were black like me, I should be inclusive. I think my line of reasoning for thinking they thought like me was completely flawed. I was wrong for thinking black people are one big homogeneous group, with the same views and thoughts on racism.
Ehav's Response:
Consider this. There are about 50 different ethnic groups in Ethiopia. Each with a different language, that the others would not automatically understand. Each ethnic group has different culture, often different religions, etc.
It was only under certain Kingdoms that said groups were somewhat united. For example, Aximite, Kushite, etc. A similar situation exists in Nigeria. So already you have a difference that cannot be linked by the word "black" because the word "black" in the above contexts is meaningless.
So this is most likely where the people you mentioned above are coming from. They come from places where their are visible and cultural divides that distinguish people even when they have a similar skin tone. Just consider what happened during the Biafra War when the Igbos and several other Nigerian ethnic groups tried to break off from Nigeria.
So you are right you and them are not the same people. UNLESS, I stress UNLESS. You all CHOOSE to form a cultural alliance and you CHOOSE to link yourselves in a common destiny. Then as you intermarry, live, and share culture you can BECOME one people. Yet, even within ethnic groups there are familiar and continued ethnic divisions.
Wow !!! I do not even know where to begin. I am an African and black and identify with ALL BLACK people irregardless of country of origin. You accuse white people of making sweeping assumptions of race and culture but funny enough u turn around and commit the same harsh stereotypes yourself. I am hurt that black solidarity is amiss here and lets be honest has never existed between African Americans and non African and thats the real issue here. Grata there is no team black people more like "team African Americans" Our cultures are different but our histories with white people are the same trust me. Have u ever heard of "colonialism" it happened to Africa and white people do not love us.
Hopefully, I can join in on this conversation and not make a fool of myself. I think the problem stems from a conservative mentality that states, "pull yourself up by your boot straps." This is flawed, and it's non-sense. I do believe that American Blacks are more prone to notice "code language" and "slights" that non-American Blacks do not. For example, when a white person is overly "playful" we address. Having fun is ok, but being disrespectful is not. If we are to be idle then we let whomever take control of situations and black people can't have that happen. I do think that American Blacks have a reason to be "funny" or "different." Our sisters and brothers in other cultures are not reminded they are different everyday.
I think the biggest problem is about "comfort." For example, I suffered a spinal-cord injury when I was 13. At 21, I walk with a cane. White people have said things to me, (and yea I laughed) that they would not say to someone who was more "threatening" and hence, the "comfort." But I don't think that White people in America are bad. They just find ways to shine the light of shame on America Blacks and they do so by using non-America Blacks.
BUT, the generalizations come from BOTH sides. You hit in right on the nail with how africa was presented to you. Just like black american people can be frustrated that people will assume they are uneducated lazy bums...non black american people from africa can be just as frustrated by people thinking they are uncivilized, live in huts, run around naked, and all speak swahili.
Oh, and I love The Gods Must Be Crazy :) :) but I never saw it as a representation of africans. I have no idea why some people thought they could speak in "clicks" after seeing the movie. LOL.
Kala,
That is how I think most black folks grew up. They assumed this to be true, like Africa had not evolved and there were no metropolitan areas, and if they were, it was because of white people, and white people alone that these cities prospered.
As a child watching that movie, I thought that clicking was talking. I was going around thinking I could click. It was really kind of sad.
Due to the media representaions of black americans, which is viewed by many around the world, many non black americans will proabably have a skewed and narrowed view of black americans. But the same can be said about the meida representation about africa.
Very true.
I don't know if the preference for non black american women by some white men can be because some think that they are just more culturally compatible with non black americans.
I don't think it is being culturally compatible. I think two Americans would be more culturally compatible than two people from completely different continents. I think that men who usually have this preference are the guys who believe american blacks are inferior on average. Remember most white people's exposure to blacks in this country is from the same media that goes out to the world.
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Non-American blacks dont have impressively strong work ethics - immigrants across the board do. When's the last time you ever heard tell of a lazy immigrant of ANY color? I'm sure 'the old country' be it in the West Indies and Africa has plenty of lazy Negroes in it.
Thembi,
That is what I was always told immigrants who came over here legally, had to work hard to get over here. We aren't seeing the lazy of that culture or race because the lazy ones are still at home.
I look forward to the blog about it.
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But for real, I don't let my white friends pull that "white guilt" crap with me. You either drink/dance/talk noise/bowl/hang out with me or kick rocks. I'm no magical Negro and am not here to be a source on Black people.
You ain't never lied. I had a white person tell me that was selfish not to be open to divulge information on my culture, I kept explaining that I alone could not account for all of black culture. I can only tell them my views of things, nothing more, nothing less.
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And by the way from personal expericence, I have found whites to have a much more realistic picture of Africa than African Americans. Its the media that carries those images but your average white person is much more informed. The most ignorant things are said by non whites. Its the extreme white racists that may hang onto the bone in the nose type of things for their purpose. Sensible and educated whites no much better.
My views or exposure to Africans came from National Geographic, which I believe is part of white media. I don't think the whites you ran into were much more cultured, just less scared to ask the questions. Remember they grew up with American blacks getting cursed out asking questions. They are apprehensive. American blacks aren't. We've never had to ask questions about white people, they were presented to us daily in real life and in the media.
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It's foolish for us to be fighting each other for some crumbs off the white man's (and woman's) table. For those of you who disagree with me, I ask you this: Did being born outside of America help Amadou Diallo or Abner Louima? No, it did not because in America black skin is all that is required in the end to garner you life threatening injuries or 40 bullets simply for breathing. Just my take on the situation.
It is foolish. I think my frustration comes from this, the fact that these stereotypes emerge over and over in the blogosphere. Not from whites, but blacks themselves. I don't think I could ever be an expert on Africa or African people's, but I know better than to lump all of them into a huge group. I think you are on point in this country, until you open your mouth, to many people we are all the same, just black, they don't care where we come from.
It makes perfect sense. Why deal with someone that is angry. No one wants to deal with an angry person
But why is the assumption most black folks are angry, and that we will project all our anger on every white person we see. That is what I don't get, I feel the anger is from white guilt, not actually from black people themselves. Also if we are angry is that anger not justified?
Do those negative experiences with AA's represent all AA's has every single AA treated you that way?
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when people who are black talk as if all American blacks have the same culture, and that their history starts at American slavery.
Ehav,
For most of us, that is all we know. We have no way to really trace our ancestry beyond slavery. I can tell you who owned my family, but I can't tell you what part of Africa I am from. I can tell you all about my Native American and even some of my caucasian ancestry, but I can't tell you anything about my African ancestry except that I know I come from slaves.
I never understood why "some" African Americans feel like they have to accept responsibility for blacks who do evil things, like gang members, drug dealers, pimps, etc.
This is why I get frustrated with SOME white people when they would ask me growing up and now why black people commit so much crime, or do drugs, or join gangs. I have never done any of those things (ok sometimes I speed in my car), but I can't relate to crime, poverty, gangs, or drug use personally. I can't be held accountable for those people, but the media and many white people want me to. I used to get all the time why is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton my leaders as a black person. I honestly don't know, I didn't think we had a black folks meeting to determine if Jesse or Al represented all of us, I always assumed they were opportunists who the media comes running too anytime anything "racial" happens. I grew up in all white neighborhoods the majority of my life, I didn't know much about the black community outside of my family until college. It still didn't stop people from asking me if I had a favorite hip hop or r&b song. Or keep white folks from calling me "sista" jokingly.
If African Americans who have lots of money, and are doing the above, used that money to take over and create their own media reflecting their own reality, this would change another part of it.
We supposedly did that with BET. I think things are changing, we do have more media outlets, mostly ignored by most people, including black people, but we do.
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I am an African and black and identify with ALL BLACK people irregardless of country of origin. You accuse white people of making sweeping assumptions of race and culture but funny enough u turn around and commit the same harsh stereotypes yourself. I am hurt that black solidarity is amiss here and lets be honest has never existed between African Americans and non African and thats the real issue here.
I don't think I did, I didn't say all Africans think that way, what I am trying to do is get an understanding of why these people say the things they do, and why they feel they have mainstreamed themselves more in America than I have.
I am going to be honest in the African American community there lacks solidarity, so it isn't a stretch that there isn't solidarity between black americans and non AAs. My exposure to black people outside my family was limited and what I was exposed to was very negative. I was teased and tormented by black people because they thought I thought I was better than them be it because of the way I talked, my hair, or that I wasn't poor. As I said before college was my eye opening experience to the black experience in America, and even that was limited to college educated black people, and even then I was still treated harshly by those who felt I wasn't "black enough". There is a strong divide due to class in the AA community. Poor blacks feel those who made it, left them behind, and middle class and higher blacks who feel they were picked on for "going against the grain". My father and mother grew up poor, and to this day still have family that chides them and insults them. My grandfather told my mother she was too uppity, and to white people she was still "nothing but a n*gger". She is ok with that, she is used to it, and even my parents as I grew up made fun of me because of the way I talked, I would tell them I would get teased and they told me to assimilate more. I have vowed that if I ever have kids I would not raise them in an all white environment because I don't want them to have the awkward feeling I have had my whole life. I fit in with no one. If I hang out with whites I am constantly reminded I am black, if I hang out with blacks I am constantly reminded I am different.
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I do think that American Blacks have a reason to be "funny" or "different." Our sisters and brothers in other cultures are not reminded they are different everyday.
You hit the nail right on the head with that one. In this country, you are reminded day in and day out you are different. Even by those who say they like you so much they don't think of you as a color. I cringe every time I hear that mess.
But I don't think that White people in America are bad. They just find ways to shine the light of shame on America Blacks and they do so by using non-America Blacks.
Very true in many cases.
Why wouldn't White Americans treat these wretches the same? Just quetioning that particular premise about Africans being more likeable because of the dire conditions they come from.
@grata:
I apologize for the length in advance: I'm trying to make sure I answer your question.
I set those forth as variables that needed to be addressed because, all of them taken together as a whole rather than individually, may explain how people come to feel about the topic of discussion.
In my personal experience, which is obviously different from yours, there is a preference for African-born blacks because they seem to have overcome more to be succesful and don't complain. Conversely, American-born blacks are seen as ungrateful (IE for not having to deal with the same conditions many native Africans are assumed to have been born in to) and less hard-working (whether this is true or not) if they have not "assimilated" into the mainstream culture and moved up from where they started.
As I was trying to convey it, I don't think it's a matter of likability based on pity/dire straits as much as it is "they can't/don't blame The Man for holding them down and don't expect a handout or meaningful apology for anything, so they're okay in our book." It's almost like a riff on the "magic negro" thing: being African allows for the liking of the individual rather than the group (blacks, which would include those born in the U.S.) as a whole.
Whereas the influence of A is more easily mitigated by cracking a book, visiting the continent, or talking to people, B is tougher to lessen the impact of.
I feel this is the result of how the school system in the U.S. tends to work. Like any other school system, we learn things in stages and we learn the biases of our culture early on. We like to think of ourselves as the best, a city upon a hill, despite our present size. If you are coming to America, you are coming because you want to be better in some way. The Puritans came to be better in how they practiced their faith and wanted to do so without restriction. People came through Ellis Island because they wanted better lives than what was available to them in the "old country." We are taught to believe that people risk life and limb to come to America because there is something inherently wrong with what their government is doing.
We learn very little in-depth about things that don't involve Europeans, settlers, the Founding Fathers, or people that look like them. People that have been "othered" don't occupy as much space in the curriculum and are limited to months or weeks. Black History month is all about abolition, the Underground Railroad, and the Civil Rights Era, as if there are no other blacks or history to speak of. Occasionally, there's a little bit about Nelson Mandela. Any mention of Latinos is usually relegated to Cesar Chavez and most of the history involving people from Asia is about wars we've fought.
Balance and truth aren't necessarily a priority--no one ever wants to admit their country fucked up or did something shady. It's easier to tell children that the natives and Pilgrims were friends who wanted to help each other than it is to talk about stolen land, raped women, and disease-infested blankets sent with hugs and kisses from President Jackson. The latter, which has more truth to it, you don't learn until at least high school and is often glossed over or ignored completely.
In the news about Mugabe, I noticed that the media tended to focus on two things: the white people who were displaced and insinuating that nearby African leaders condoned his actions. There was little about how the people within his country were being affected until the violence targeting opposition groups erupted. It was back to "look at those crazy black people" coverage at that point. With so little to counter-balance the "Feed the Children" commercials at night and mainstream news stories that revolve around what's "wrong" with other nations, a person can end up with a very limited or narrow understanding of people from Africa.
Where you are located in the U.S. geographically also dictates what you learn and what images are reinforced. Further in from the coasts, you're more likely to find people that believe there are Africans with bones in their noses because they're isolated and don't or choose not to know any better. This is also true when you put more distance between yourself and major cities.
At the same time, a "quality" education is not guaranteed to change that. Not two weeks ago, I had a coworker/schoolmate arguing with me and one of our bosses, who is half Native American, about why indian schools "weren't so bad" because they were "teaching people to survive." This girl went to a prestigious private school, has well-educated parents, and gets good grades.
In a humanities class I had here, the Battle of Rorke's Drift (fictionalized in the movie "Zulu," which the teacher used as an aid) was more or less being taught as proof of African savagery. Absolutely nothing about why they might've reacted that way or what happened before the ass-whooping commenced, just poor white people and uncivilized black folks. The lecture was written and presented by the teacher, himself a very liberal Ivy League grad.
The image of the black welfare queen was invented by Ronald Reagan; she simply did not exist at that time. Which images are we subjected to most often: the 70% of blacks in America that are not on welfare and live above the poverty line, the 30% that aren't as affluent, or those that comprise the fraction of either group that are considered ghetto? That last image is precisely what 95% of the students in my split-level criminal justice class drew from when asked to imagine how their lives would be different if they were poor, underprivliged, or another group considered not to be normal by the middle class......except these educated people used the assignment to rant about all the stereotypes they knew about non-white people. The topic was pulled by the professor only when I expressed apprehension at being expected to participate in that when he himself wasn't bothering to moderate or keep people on topic. I've also heard the "why do we need to talk about racial profiling? everyone knows minorities commit most crimes anyway.." in the halls of academia.
My point with all of that is that although these people have received educations that would point to how well-informed they are, some things die hard if they ever die at all. Not everyone ever sees the disparity in what they've learned and what images they are presented with. Often, people don't think about what's being shown to them. If it's on the news or in the paper, it's true.
I never said I believed the images that I referenced in my original post to be truth. If my attempt at hyperbole was unclear, I'm sorry. I was trying to point out just how absurd some of the ideas that still linger in American society as a whole, rather than with the individual, are.
Siddity Wrote
For most of us, that is all we know. We have no way to really trace our ancestry beyond slavery. I can tell you who owned my family, but I can't tell you what part of Africa I am from. I can tell you all about my Native American and even some of my Caucasian ancestry, but I can't tell you anything about my African ancestry except that I know I come from slaves.
Ehav's Response
There is a simple way to beat that though. It is as simple as going to talk to all the elderly African Americans you can find. You may find that the history, as many African Americans have been taught to accept is not that accurate.
For example, a few years ago I was doing a research project for Phi Beta Sigma to try and find all of the oldest Sigmas and get their stories. In this project we got a view of the fraternity that completely changed the accepted view we had of our fraternity. We had been taught that no one knew about this or that, or this piece of info or that didn't exist. We went across the country talking to elder Sigmas and they had ready access to things we were told didn't exist.
In the course of this research I met African American Sigmas who told us that their grandparents and a parents knew a lot of things about the world, and that many of them were multi-lingual. We spoke with one elder who was in nursing home and remembered things from the first 20 years of the fraternity. When we left he cried because no one had ever come to talk to him about the fraternity and he was so happy that someone did.
One of my uncles confirmed that during his time there were a large number of African Americans who were very knowledgeable about their acestry and who were multi-lingual.
In short what I am saying is that, you may not personally be able to say what area your family came from. Yet, knowing exactly where your family came can be just an empty of thing as not knowing. There are some dead beat people who know exactly where their families come from, and that information does not change them.
The other issue is that history does not stop, just as it has no real beginning. How many African Americans are documenting their families exploits for the last 100 years? How many are recording their own lives right now, so that future generations know what this time period was like? Enter the blog as a way to do this.
Yet, as I mentioned before the BIGGER problem for AA, as I see it. There is going to be a need for LIKE MINDED AA's to form PHYSICAL communities, and start families. As children from those communities grow up together and are exposed to a community culture they must be taught to go forth and repeat the process. It may be necessary for said AA communities to also learn a second or 3rd language and teach it to their kids. A spread out hand is no where near as strong as a balled up fist.
While I was growing most of my friends were not born in the United States and I didn't experience anything odd within my friendships until I was in my early 20's. I have a good friend who was born in the Ivory Coast and I'll never forget the first time we met because she thought I was also born outside of the United States too so she went on and on about how rude, greedy, fat, loud, lazy, and ungrateful African American (black people) are...I won't go on because I think you get the point. I was shocked to be honest and let her know that I definitely born here in the United States as were both of my parents too! She then apologized, but when I met her parents what they said about African Americans was even worse! I was shocked by what they actually had the courage to say out loud. My friend tried to tell her parents that I was an American, but before she could get the sentence out they started in on African Americans too. The look on their faces was priceless though when I told them that I was born in Iowa! :) Over the years I've had similar experiences while working for a large companies too. For years now I've been constantly told that I don't look or act American or African-American either. This one is a bit confusing for me and when I asked my parents about it they didn't have an explanation for me.
It was too many times of my co-workers who were Indian, Japanese, Chinese, African, and you name it all telling me how they really felt about African American (black people)whenever they got upset about something that involved an African American (black person). It was definitely some very nasty comments and they were all said because it was assumed that I was not born here in the United States. I'm always very saddened and disappointed when these situations occur (very often) in my case, but I try to use myself as an example of how every person is different and unique regardless of what their race is and where they were born.
This is what I am talking about. Honestly she is mad at one person she is mad at, who happens to be jamaican, and goes off on a rant about african americans. I am tired of it. Seriously the civil rights movement is a big reason why many immigrants of color even exist here, why is it is perfectly fine to stereotype and insult the people who helped you get here?
Hey there!
Thank you for raising this issue!
I do believe that some non-American blacks who come to this country tend to think of American blacks as a homogenous group. Then, they find out that there are VERY DIFFERENT black Americans who have not had the same experiences or the same upbringing due to class differences.
Many non-American blacks think that nearly ALL blacks in this country are in the lower socioeconomic class.
Yes.
This has been my experience.
They are floored to learn of books like Lawrence Otis Graham's in which he writes about the black elite in this country.
I also have noticed in my travels in African countries that white Americans are placed on pedastals and catered to while black Americans traveling through Africa are often encountering indifference.
There is also jealousy of American citizenry by blacks who are in this country and are not American citizens.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Hey there!
Thank you for raising this issue!
I do believe that some non-American blacks who come to this country tend to think of American blacks as a homogenous group. Then, they find out that there are VERY DIFFERENT black Americans who have not had the same experiences or the same upbringing due to class differences.
Many non-American blacks think that nearly ALL blacks in this country are in the lower socioeconomic class.
Yes.
This has been my experience.
They are floored to learn of books like Lawrence Otis Graham's in which he writes about the black elite in this country.
I also have noticed in my travels in African countries that white Americans are placed on pedastals and catered to while black Americans traveling through Africa are often encountering indifference.
There is also jealousy of American citizenry by blacks who are in this country and are not American citizens.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Whenever I think about this African American v. Africans/Afro Carribeans, I recall this article from the NYT that floored me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/26/us/26nannies.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=39807a571757caeb&ex=1324789200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
I wasn't really aware of the divisions until I read that high income African-americans can't hire nannys of any color, and non-American blacks were unwilling to work for an African American family. I've also befriended a few women from various backgrounds (Ehtiopian, Haitian, and Barbados) who confirm the desire Afro immigrants have to distance themselves from us African Americans.
we are floored? by your authors?
Really? by your black elite? really?
I mean, you do know that your black elite actually tend to travel quite a bit..right? So we have encountered many of them and some of them are our hereos as well
You know, every single time someone raises this issue, the stereotyping of us Africans flies just as far out of your mouths as the very people you accuse of stereotyping you?.
Why would you expect to be treated any differently or put on a pedestal when you travel through Africa? Are you not black like me?.
Why should I not treat you like I treat everyone else?. why do you want special treatment?
It's bad enough that white people want and expect it.
Do Africans expect to be placed on a pedestal when they come to the USA?.
So some bad Africans berate you and are ignorant.. so what?.
Do you think there aren't any bad americans who berate africans and are ignorant?.
You talk of civil rights and what opportunities it gave... okay I urge you to go and look through the history of the UN and see which countries stood up for the plight of African Americans and requested damn near demanded that they be treated equally. And all this, taking place just some of us Africans just got our own independece in the late 50's and early 60's.
It's notlike we were living free in our own countries.
I can name countless times when I've been treated ignorantly and abused by African Americans for being African. But what would the point of that be?
Even in your comedy, you make fun of us, 'I want 'alf eddie'! 'give us our free' e.t.c.
So what?.
We 'chest' it. Take it and keep it moving.
I was friends with an African American woman, who noticed I had flat feet, she couldn't get over it and kept going on about my African feet. When I told her that our mutual African American friend also had flat feet.. it didn't register.
She actually came to me the next day and said..
'oh I told my mom about your African feet.. I've never seen an Africans foot before, so that's how y'all feet are?'
This from a 30'something college educated, forward thinking, liberal woman. Does this make me think all African Americans are silly. urm nope. Just that one.
From time to time she would bring it up for discussion when in a group setting... she'd say.. show them your African feet and giggle and laugh.
do I expect any other African American person to apologise for her silliness on her behalf. erm. no. That's her, not you.
I've been friends with African Americans who couldn't believe that I didn't live in a tree or play with monkeys who couldn't believe that we had banks, TV's! companies, universities back home.
When I tell them that I never took the bus until I started travelling around the world, they figured we were too poor to be able to afford it.
until I mentioned that, the driver took me everywhere and my family are NOT diplomats and were simply an average working class African family.
This whole bollocks swings both ways. I and my friends new of laurance Dunbar sojorner truth, harriet tubman and malcolm X, we know about sororities (we just call them cults back home lol) We know because we read. and we followed the strugle on TV, or in the UN, or by joining protests and forming organisations and donating scholarships, and donating land, or do you forget the offer Ghana made to the US citizens.
I could give a rats ass what white people say. In general, white people are always playing some divisionary bollocks tactic amongst us.
They get to choose who becomes the 'special negro' and we keep buying it.
Today, it's ohh. the Africans are cool, they are more whatever than African Americans... tomorrow they say something different.
Why are we even considering what the heck they are saying?.
isn't it enough that we see the way some of them (please I know there ae white people who don't act like this.. and I'll state here that I'm generalising and talking about the elite)they treat and divide African Americans in general?
And then let's not even bring men into it. All men will say any damn thing to get in them panties. I've been on dates with African American men who have said..
'oh that's why I like you, you are different from the African American women around here, they are simply gold diggers non adventurous blah blah blah'.
Right there and then, I knew that the dude was a worthless piece of trash. and it wouldn't be long before he downs me to some African American woman.
I simply finish the date, delete the number and move on. I don't date people who abuse women.
I've got the same thing from African men! who say...'oh your soo different from the other 'African' or African American or Black British, or European black' (depending on what they think I am).
I do the same thing with them. I finish dinner, finish the date and delete that number.
I've had african men say on a date with me...
'oh Black women don't do it like white women, so I'm just giving you a chance'. lol
I've had white men say they've never known anyone like me.. goshyour skin is soo...
They are all just spitting game! They say the same thing to all the girls, and I don't believe the hype.
i know I've typed up a bunch, I guess I had a little time to day.
I will not apologise for any other African who has behaved negatively. Just as I do not expect you to apologise for any other African American.
However, if you feel you must judge all Africans by the standard of a few.. then cool. more power to you.
I simply brush that shit off my shoulder and keep it move towards positive people.
oh one more thing..
I think it is thoroughly disgraceful that a whit eguy comes on here to tell you that Barack obama is not African American thus he is getting more support.
ABSOLUTE BOLLOCKS!
As if White people like Africans anymore..
Do you forget that to most white people, we are disease ridden, Aids infected, beggers who can't do anything for ourselves unless it is done for us.
They think all of Africa is starving, poor, malnourished, dying or diseased or savage and animal like. They think we are not but big penises and open pussies for them to use for their pleasure.
since when and on what planet did white people ever value Africans?
i call BS!
Baracks father was from Kenya, his mother is from the US... what else could he be BUT African American?
Did he grow up in Africa? erm no.
Yeah white people are willing to vote for him not because he's doing a good job! oh no.. but because he is African!. the whole muslim thing... oh no that doesn't get in the way..
this is crazy
As if White people like Africans anymore..
Do you forget that to most white people, we are disease ridden, Aids infected, beggers who can't do anything for ourselves unless it is done for us
__
Wow is that what we think? Thank you for letting me know.
I am not one to excuse ignorance, nor am I one to excuse racism and deny it's existance. But is this what MOST of us think? How do you know this? Scientific poll? Anecdotal evidence? did you talk to MOST of us or have some run in with us?
We whites provide the world with plenty of knuckleheads and lots of biggots, but to assume you know most of us is very presumptious.
@brohammas..
There was a time when I would really be game to debate this with you, part of me is even inclined right now.. But most of me doesn;t have the time nor inclination to do so within this particular post.
It's diverting the thread from the original issue and I'm sure by now you would have guessed that the original issue is much more important to me, than addressing the new one you've proposed.
Regards
Fair enough.
I wasn't really aware of the divisions until I read that high income African-americans can't hire nannys of any color, and non-American blacks were unwilling to work for an African American family. I've also befriended a few women from various backgrounds (Ehtiopian, Haitian, and Barbados) who confirm the desire Afro immigrants have to distance themselves from us African Americans.
There is a lot of animosity towards american blacks who have made it, not just from immigrants, but from other african americans. It is like the worst of the worst is to get out of poverty or the ghetto, or worse yet, to have never lived there.
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You know, every single time someone raises this issue, the stereotyping of us Africans flies just as far out of your mouths as the very people you accuse of stereotyping you?.
It seems to go both ways.
Why would you expect to be treated any differently or put on a pedestal when you travel through Africa? Are you not black like me?. Why should I not treat you like I treat everyone else?. why do you want special treatment? It's bad enough that white people want and expect it.
I think what she is saying, is that there is a difference in treatment between how you treat white americans vs. black americans. I once knew a woman from the Caribbean who told me she hated having black customers at the hotel she worked at, because they didn't tip like the white people. I then asked her could it be she treated them differently than she did the white people, her response to that was of course they were treated better, they usually tipped better, so she put more emphasize on providing service to them. Seems to be a vicious cycle doesn't it? I hear that rationale a lot with waiters of all hues here in America too.
So some bad Africans berate you and are ignorant.. so what?. Do you think there aren't any bad americans who berate africans and are ignorant?.
Has this not been said in this whole conversation?
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You talk of civil rights and what opportunities it gave... okay I urge you to go and look through the history of the UN and see which countries stood up for the plight of African Americans and requested damn near demanded that they be treated equally. And all this, taking place just some of us Africans just got our own independece in the late 50's and early 60's. It's notlike we were living free in our own countries.
When I mention the civil rights movement, I am looking at those who like to label us all as lazy, unmotivated, and criminally minded, and look at immigration policies prior to the civil rights movement. If not for that movement, the immigrants who feel the need to stereotype and insult us, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us lazy, ungrateful american blacks. I think sometimes folks forget that.
Even in your comedy, you make fun of us, 'I want 'alf eddie'! 'give us our free' e.t.c. So what?. We 'chest' it. Take it and keep it moving.
"Give Us Free" is in reference to Amistad the movie. Not to Africans in general.
I was friends with an African American woman, who noticed I had flat feet, she couldn't get over it and kept going on about my African feet. When I told her that our mutual African American friend also had flat feet.. it didn't register. She actually came to me the next day and said.. 'oh I told my mom about your African feet.. I've never seen an Africans foot before, so that's how y'all feet are?'
You ran into an ignorant woman. People of any race or nationality can have flat feet. Hell I have flat feet and I have never set foot in Africa.
I've been friends with African Americans who couldn't believe that I didn't live in a tree or play with monkeys who couldn't believe that we had banks, TV's! companies, universities back home.
Again ignorance. But remember this ignorance is not limited to African Americans, and in this country, that same ignorance is spread to African Americans from whites, and others who have lived in this country all their lives.
In matter of fact white people think that you guys are way better than us, as you don't take "hand outs" like we apparently all do.
In regards to Ghana, isn't it only recently they have welcomed African Americans to come "home", and remember that invite wasn't well known here. Our media doesn't cover such things as it is more European and white centered.
I could give a rats ass what white people say. In general, white people are always playing some divisionary bollocks tactic amongst us. They get to choose who becomes the 'special negro' and we keep buying it.
Very true, and many people do buy it, and that is the core issue at hand.
I've had african men say on a date with me... 'oh Black women don't do it like white women, so I'm just giving you a chance'. lol
I would have cursed that man out.
I will not apologise for any other African who has behaved negatively. Just as I do not expect you to apologise for any other African American.
I don't think anyone has done nothing should apologize, I just want to put it out there it happens. I was raised as a child that black people need to stick together, but I know that, at least here in America it is not the case, the issue is the division of blacks by class and by nationality.
However, if you feel you must judge all Africans by the standard of a few.. then cool. more power to you.
I don't think I do that, I would hope if anything people would have open conversation about it.
Hi siddity..
I'm going to address 2 things first using Ghana as an example.
Firstly, Kwame Nkrumah made an offer in the late 50's early 60's for Africans in the diaspora to come home, many African Americnas did, and many in the civil rights movement actually lived in ghana.
you said:
When I mention the civil rights movement, I am looking at those who like to label us all as lazy, unmotivated, and criminally minded, and look at immigration policies prior to the civil rights movement. If not for that movement, the immigrants who feel the need to stereotype and insult us, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us lazy, ungrateful american blacks. I think sometimes folks forget that.
unfortunately, this is simply not true. Africans have been travelling and studying in the USA from way back, the 20's , the 30's, the 40's. We've been doing so since even before our own independence. And actually before slavery.
Again when you mention the civil rights, you neglect to mention the role that many Africans held in not only inspiring civil rights leaders like WB Dubois, MLK, Malcolm X amongst others.. but also in helping them formulate plans of action and organisation.
Again, I'll use Ghana and Kwame Nkrumah as an example.
Kwame Nkrumah (Ghana's first indigenous post colonialism president) got his first degree in University of Pennsylvania in the 1930's (or late 20s). (he also got degrees from london at the london school of economics amongst others)
He was not unique. Many AFrican's and Europeans studied in universities abroad at the time. (remember, universities were not 2 a penny in those days, like they are now) LSE, Oxford, Harvard.. these were some of the most recognised institutes of higher learning and that's where people all over the world went.
Ghana was the first nation to gain indepence from colonial rule in 1957. Let's remember this, we weren't settling our own affairs in most African countries until the 1960's!. And even then and till now we still haven't been able to unravel the gross and rampant mongrelisation of the continent that the colonials left behind. They created and still maintain chaos!. (bit I digress).
anyway, Kwame invited those who were willing to come home (he was a pan-Africanist afterall).
It was because of him that W.E.B Dubois moved to live in Ghana.
Malcolm X, Martin Luther King all consulted with him and spent time in Ghana, as well as in other African countries and amongst other African movement leaders who were just getting to grips with evicting the colonials from our land.
African grass roots and pan-africanism became the movement for Africans at home and in every single diaspora.
Why are they not teaching this more..I don't know?
I thought it was common knowledge that the civil rights movement got it's influence from pan africanism and liased closely with these new African movements founded by Azikiwe, Awolowo, Garvey (west Indian), Nkrumah, Julius Nyerere, patrice Lamumba.. e.t.c.,
Siddity, Ghana has the largest African American community in Africa (probable bar liberia) But then Liberia is a whole nother issue.
I could go on Siddity. But the information is there... we largely seem to have forgotten it, whilst we are being pitted against each other, for the role of who is supposed to be the 'noble savage'.
I'm sorry, i disagree that 'white people think we are better than you'.
Look at how the white main media portray us Africans.
And when they are not being patronising, look at how we are fetisized. Their 'liking' is largely patronising and simply two-faced. nobody who genuinely likes you, will say they like you because 'you are better than that other person'.. what does that have to do with you? nothing.
I don't believe that crap and I don't buy it.
Many see us as 'starving, broken, Aids infected, disease ridden, savages. If we are not that... then we are the 'noble negros' the magic negroes who have no need for money and only believe in honour, we place no value on material things and live off the earth with no desire for materialistic endeavours... What a load of crap lol
Does this sound familiar to you?. Does it remind you of how the Native Americans were portrayed?.. or how many white young people who have taken a class on 'African American Studies' talk about hte oog old days when African Americans were simply 'honorable' and fought for a cause.
It's game.. it's talk and it's divisive. i've said it time without number, many white people simply set one group against the other.
I stopped blogging but I'll temp. give myself the name I used to go by.. which is
'soul.
unfortunately, this is simply not true. Africans have been travelling and studying in the USA from way back, the 20's , the 30's, the 40's. We've been doing so since even before our own independence. And actually before slavery.
Prior to 1965 there were quotas in place that favored countries in the Western Hemisphere. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 got rid of the preference for European Countries vs. those countries from the Eastern Hemisphere. So yes even though prior to 1965 there were immigrants from Africa coming here, this Act allowed for MORE immigrants from Africa and Asia to enter the country.
In terms of the African American exodus to Ghana, it is estimated that only 5,000 African Americans live in Ghana.
Again when you mention the civil rights, you neglect to mention the role that many Africans held in not only inspiring civil rights leaders like WB Dubois, MLK, Malcolm X amongst others.. but also in helping them formulate plans of action and organisation.
No one even mentioned this, no one is acknowledging that the pan africanism did not assist in the Civil Rights movement. I would say that the NOI and other groups (not the new NOU, but old school, Elijjah Muhammad, NOI) is very heavily influenced by pan africanism. But if you look at the leaders as well know them of this movement, I would say many were American. No one has denied that non Americans did not have an influence on the civil rights movement, but there is no need to downplay the American influence either.
Siddity.
you mentioned it..
If not for that movement, the immigrants who feel the need to stereotype and insult us, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us lazy, ungrateful american blacks. I think sometimes folks forget that.
I simply addressed it. I am not downplaying anything. And if you can point out where or how I downplayed it. I'd be most pleased to take it back and apologise.
was the 'The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965' born out of the civil rights movement?
I only mentioned pan africanilism as a part of what Nkrumah was involved in. It was not the only leading influence here.
It was not the only movement and it was not the only interaction that AFrican' have with the civil rights movement and civil rights leaders.
It seems you are largely doing a lot of downplaying and then turning around and accuse me of it.
Again, point out where I have done so and I'll correct it.
I am very aware of the work of civil rights leaders... no one could have done more than the very people who lived under Jim Crow, than African Americans.. you were living it in the disapora. we were living it back home.
once again, I'll reiterate, I simply pointed out that we weren't just sitting around looking at our own people in the disapora from afar..
We weren't just sitting there watching you be brutalised. We joined in, we lended assistance, we lended an ear and we tried to provide safe havens even before we had sorted out the mess which we rested from the colonilials.
That alone is my point. I wish you would read it like that.
how could I ever, even begin to imply that the some AFricans, many of who were still living under colonial rule whilst you had gained some (not all) civil liberties were instrumental in liberating you.
i didn't say that. I didn't imply that and if you have read it as that, then I implore you to look at it in a different manner.
-soul
you mentioned it.. If not for that movement, the immigrants who feel the need to stereotype and insult us, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us lazy, ungrateful american blacks. I think sometimes folks forget that. I simply addressed it. I am not downplaying anything. And if you can point out where or how I downplayed it. I'd be most pleased to take it back and apologise.
Again you forget to mention I am not mentioning ALL immigrants, but there seems to be a trend for SOME, which is who I am mentioning in the quote you just provided who feel that american blacks in general are lazy and ungrateful.
was the 'The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965' born out of the civil rights movement?
YES. It was actually seen as a symbolic act to extend civil rights sentiments globally. Please go Here, here.
It seems you are largely doing a lot of downplaying and then turning around and accuse me of it. Again, point out where I have done so and I'll correct it.
I am not downplaying anything. My point is this, if people feel the need to come to America and tell me how I am as a black person is, or generalize and stereotype me, I have no need to associate with them. To me it is insulting for people to come here and accuse me of being a criminal, uneducated, and everything else under the sun, and it is even more insulting coming from someone who is of the same hue as me, because in reality, until you open your mouth, those of other races will see you, like they see us "regular old American" blacks.
The civil rights movement here in America was largely led by African Americans. Yes, they had influences from those outside the States, but for the most part, it was an American thing. People tend to fight for their own personal interests do they not?
"That is what I don't get, I feel the anger is from white guilt, not actually from black people themselves. Also if we are angry is that anger not justified?"
Ofcourse the anger is justified, Its a catch 22.
"Do those negative experiences with AA's represent all AA's has every single AA treated you that way?"
The negative experiences don't reflect on all AAs but like you keep blogging on this subject, If you experience the same behaior over and over again your opinions on a group of people get formed. And yes I have experienced one on one more negative experiences than good ones and that is why I am cautious on interracting on a one on one level. I do avoid close relatives that do the same thing. With AAs I have felt the anger and animosity so real to be able to sense it a mile away. After being in blogosphere for long one can attach the mindsets to those angry reactions therefore making one even more careful.
So when you see people like Africans being cautious, sometimes its not the media but rather their experiences.
Grata,
The reason this is being bought up over and over again, is because it seems that people love to say really condescending things about AAs and start in on how they perceive us to be, over and over again on various blogs, and either others jump in and agree or remain silent. So yeah I call it out now. I don't feel it is necessary to tear down another group of people to make myself feel better but obviously other people do.
""Give Us Free" is in reference to Amistad the movie. Not to Africans in general".
Yeah, just like Shirley Q represents that rare ghetto sterotypical AA woman.
"In regards to Ghana, isn't it only recently they have welcomed African Americans to come "home", and remember that invite wasn't well known here. Our media doesn't cover such things as it is more European and white centered".
Overtures towards African Americans go way back into the the 60s. Infact they ran parallel with the Civil Rights movement. There was an OAU proposal for reparations to Africans and African Americans, a formal apology for slavery to Africans and African Americans and colonialism. You don't hear much about it. Britain's recent apology did have a history of pressure from the Africans. There were West Indians that played a crucial role in the independence of African Nations and the development of Pan African Thought. People tend to think that most black progress was achieved with the Civil Rights movement and this is not true.
There is alot of uncovered back and forth between the two groups.
This whole Civil Rights movement helping immigrants sounds like the other non American blacks are just takers and did little to further the black cause. This is a part of Black History that is not told. SO be careful with the "our struggles benefitted you guys" line.
"No one has denied that non Americans did not have an influence on the civil rights movement, but there is no need to downplay the American influence either".
Your statements about immigrants gaining from American black achievement don't seem to recognize their own contributions.
"In terms of the African American exodus to Ghana, it is estimated that only 5,000 African Americans live in Ghana".
You call 5000 only? Isn't that testament to the fact that atleast some African governments have reached out and some AAs have responded? So all in all its not just Black Americans that have created openings for other blacks.
"and it is even more insulting coming from someone who is of the same hue as me, because in reality, until you open your mouth, those of other races will see you, like they see us "regular old American" blacks".
Africans raised in Africa never forget who they are to non Africans. So they don't need to be reminded that they are black. That seems to be a concern more for AAs.
Didn't read the entire thread of comments before commenting so i hope what i am saying now hasn't already been settled. I get the idea that many of those commenting here have the idea that blacks who aren't born in the US don't understand racism and have never been oppressed because of their race. For example, that comment that obama and colin powell are 'better than former slaves'. But that's not true because many, in fact most, non-african americans know about slavery and were affected by it in some way or have slave ancestors. colin powell for example has Jamaican parents, Slavery existed in Jamaica until it was abolished in 1838 or thereabouts, i know this because i'm Jamaican. I think that's the mistake a lot of black americans make, thinking their history was more oppressive than other blacks'
What you are saying implies that black americans don't know about other cultures. My problem with people like you is that you believe that racism began and ended with slavery in America. Slavery ended in America after Jamaica, and after that we had Jim Crowe until the 1960s. No we aren't the only oppressed people in this history, but it irks me to no end that people come here to tell me that I am beneath them because they watched BET and determined it is a documentary of the plight and current situation of black people in America.
Yes, I am implying that many black Americans do not know other people's cultures...note 'a lot', i didn't say all.
What I am not implying though is that racism only occurred during slavery. I think I have acknowledged, on your own blog, in a post about your experience of racism in school, that the American experience regarding race relations is quite unique. My only concern is that i believe there may be some who think that just because someone isn't from the US they don't know what it is to be looked down on because of race. Yes Jamaica is predominantly black, and people would assume that this would make things easier for blacks here. But this is a country where importation of skin bleaching creams is illegal, yet it is sold openly on the streets of the capital city, with people risking skin cancer to look like Michael Jackson. This is also a country where the more Caucasian you look, the more likely you are to get certain jobs. Every country that ever had slavery still have deep scars from the experience, that's all i want acknowledged.
For the record, I don't watch BET, I hardly think most blacks would think the content represents them.
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