Yes! I saw that one on the convention, excellent counterpunch to the trivialization of community organizers. I also like the point I've been hearing, that the much vaunted "founding fathers" were among our first community organizers (and the repugs would NEVER dump on them). Though come to think of it, I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own.
I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own.
The break with the crown and the establishing of democratic principles has probably had one of the most profound affect on the world than nearly anything in history. The world would very likely still be locked In imperial dynasty and dictaorship without the fathers.
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear"
Thomas Jefferson
"The countries the most famous and the most respected of antiquity are those which distinguished themselves by promoting and patronizing science, and on the contrary those which neglected or discouraged it are universally denominated rude and barbarous. The patronage which Britain has shown to Arts, Science and Literature has given her a better established and lasting rank in the world than she ever acquired by her arms."
I agree, I know they were belting for Obama, but didn't they insult the community organizers of their own party. That made no sense, and I never could figure out why it is bad t be a community organizer, it is better than joining a political organization that wanted to secede from the Union. How are you going to be the VP of a country you tried to leave?
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I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own
Very true,they had their stake in the country, they were trying to get their piece just like everyone else.
The break with the crown and the establishing of democratic principles has probably had one of the most profound affect on the world than nearly anything in history. The world would very likely still be locked In imperial dynasty and dictaorship without the fathers.
Very true. But hopefully like other countries if that was the case we would be like Canada, of course my fear is no country remains on top forever and will this country eventually succumb to the same fate?
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
I thought a big basis of this country was founded on religious freedom, not just Christian, NRA freedom. I think some have forgotten that. Heck even Benjamin Franklin was an atheist.
I see what you're saying, Siditty. I guess "community organizer" isn't the label they'd use for members of their own party doing that kind of work. After all, "community" sounds a lot like . . . "communism"!
classical one, you seem to have quite a nostalgic view of the founding fathers. Where, for one, are the founding mothers in that picture? And aside from their sexism, what about their rampant racism and classism?
Many of those "fathers" enslaved, beat, overworked, and sold other people, including some of their own children. They provoked a "revolution" largely because their business interests were being curtailed--their profits. And they used the whole idea of race and a vaunted fiction of whiteness to divide and conquer the classes below them.
The nostalgic vision of the beginnings of "the greatest country on earth" was inspiring when we were in junior high school (especially if we were white boys), and yes, that story did inspire other countries into semblances of democracy. However, we should remember the largely forgotten mess that's closer to the "true character of the founding fathers." Maybe then we'd see more clearly that times haven't really changed all that much.
Maybe then we'd see more clearly that times haven't really changed all that much.
Let's see what has changed since then.
1. Europe is now filled with democracies, then it was filled with monarchies with huge inequality and massive suffering.
2. Great works like Thomas Paine "The Rights of Man" and the imperfect, though brilliant constitution have inspired countries the world over to copy what was done here in America and the democracy the Fathers put in effect has spread around the world.
The very fact that we can even have this conversation springs from the democracy that was created here. If America was never founded the European empires would have swallowed America and monarchial and dictatorial rule would likely still be in effect the world over. It is now in vogue to condemn the founding fathers but where would we be without them?
classical one, your refusal to see that what you call a democracy has always been instead a plutocracy makes this conversation fruitless. Enjoy your rosy visions. Or, if you'd rather wake up, try some books by Howard Zinn, Theodore Allen, James Loewen, David Roediger, or Ronald Takaki.
classical one, your refusal to see that what you call a democracy has always been instead a plutocracy
America is a plutocracy but this is a very recent phenomenon. The more appropriate model is now western Europe, which enjoys a higher quality of life overall than most places in the states. However it's only the theories that allowed the start of the American revolution that enabled Europe to eventually become democratic.
Howard Zinn and most of his kind are Marxists and it's hard to think of a more ridiculous theory than Marxism which has been responsible for some of the worst regimes in history, some solution.
One last word--although Zinn has identified with Marxism, dismissing his clear-eyed, ground-level, anti-authoritarian view of history for that reason, and lumping him together with the others I mentioned as that "kind," are both ridiculous. Oh, and one more word--just because the American empire has managed to outdo others doesn't make it a better one.
I see what you're saying, Siditty. I guess "community organizer" isn't the label they'd use for members of their own party doing that kind of work. After all, "community" sounds a lot like . . . "communism"!
To some, anything that doesn't agree with their stance is seen as communism :)
classical one, you seem to have quite a nostalgic view of the founding fathers. Where, for one, are the founding mothers in that picture? And aside from their sexism, what about their rampant racism and classism?
I don't think C1 was saying they were not without faults(please correct me if I am wrong). There is no doubt in my mind those founders had their own agendas, but the founding principles of this country have been widely emulated and did inspire many. The government set up for that time was completely radical. I do think other nations would have eventually came up with a similar model, with or without inspiration for America, but I do think that since the U.S. started it, it should get credit for it. Now in terms of the racism and sexism of our founding fathers, I don't think anyone will deny that. It can't be denied, it happened.
I think many times people want to see things black or white, not gray, and it is important to point out both the strengths and weaknesses of these individuals to gain an understanding of how America is today.
I do love J Smooth!! Thanks for posting that Sidity!!!
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
I believe that they are afraid of change as much as they say that they are the "Real" change the country needs and they continue to harp on experience. Instead of discussing the real issues that affect the people, they fall back on the same stale tactics that they always have. And you are right about the founding fathers, they were revolutionaries and in order to be a revolutionary, you have to do things differently. Personal attacks, cronyism and double standards are all that I see when I look at McCain and Palin because that's all they have. Certainly no substance to actually be in touch with the people they "claim" they want to help. "Community Organizer" should not be used as a dirty word and Palin was wrong for demonizing it as such. BTW, what does Deism mean to you, C-1?? I actually looked it up and it sounds a lot like being agnostic.
14 comments:
Yes! I saw that one on the convention, excellent counterpunch to the trivialization of community organizers. I also like the point I've been hearing, that the much vaunted "founding fathers" were among our first community organizers (and the repugs would NEVER dump on them). Though come to think of it, I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own.
I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own.
The break with the crown and the establishing of democratic principles has probably had one of the most profound affect on the world than nearly anything in history. The world would very likely still be locked In imperial dynasty and dictaorship without the fathers.
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear"
Thomas Jefferson
"The countries the most famous and the most respected of antiquity are those which distinguished themselves by promoting and patronizing science, and on the contrary those which neglected or discouraged it are universally denominated rude and barbarous. The patronage which Britain has shown to Arts, Science and Literature has given her a better established and lasting rank in the world than she ever acquired by her arms."
Thomas Paine
both videos are the same
I fixed it SueSue
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Macon,
I agree, I know they were belting for Obama, but didn't they insult the community organizers of their own party. That made no sense, and I never could figure out why it is bad t be a community organizer, it is better than joining a political organization that wanted to secede from the Union. How are you going to be the VP of a country you tried to leave?
---------
I'm not sure the organizing the founding fathers did was in the interest of "the community," as much as it was in their own
Very true,they had their stake in the country, they were trying to get their piece just like everyone else.
The break with the crown and the establishing of democratic principles has probably had one of the most profound affect on the world than nearly anything in history. The world would very likely still be locked In imperial dynasty and dictaorship without the fathers.
Very true. But hopefully like other countries if that was the case we would be like Canada, of course my fear is no country remains on top forever and will this country eventually succumb to the same fate?
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
I thought a big basis of this country was founded on religious freedom, not just Christian, NRA freedom. I think some have forgotten that. Heck even Benjamin Franklin was an atheist.
I see what you're saying, Siditty. I guess "community organizer" isn't the label they'd use for members of their own party doing that kind of work. After all, "community" sounds a lot like . . . "communism"!
classical one, you seem to have quite a nostalgic view of the founding fathers. Where, for one, are the founding mothers in that picture? And aside from their sexism, what about their rampant racism and classism?
Many of those "fathers" enslaved, beat, overworked, and sold other people, including some of their own children. They provoked a "revolution" largely because their business interests were being curtailed--their profits. And they used the whole idea of race and a vaunted fiction of whiteness to divide and conquer the classes below them.
The nostalgic vision of the beginnings of "the greatest country on earth" was inspiring when we were in junior high school (especially if we were white boys), and yes, that story did inspire other countries into semblances of democracy. However, we should remember the largely forgotten mess that's closer to the "true character of the founding fathers." Maybe then we'd see more clearly that times haven't really changed all that much.
Maybe then we'd see more clearly that times haven't really changed all that much.
Let's see what has changed since then.
1. Europe is now filled with democracies, then it was filled with monarchies with huge inequality and massive suffering.
2. Great works like Thomas Paine "The Rights of Man" and the imperfect, though brilliant constitution have inspired countries the world over to copy what was done here in America and the democracy the Fathers put in effect has spread around the world.
The very fact that we can even have this conversation springs from the democracy that was created here. If America was never founded the European empires would have swallowed America and monarchial and dictatorial rule would likely still be in effect the world over. It is now in vogue to condemn the founding fathers but where would we be without them?
classical one, your refusal to see that what you call a democracy has always been instead a plutocracy makes this conversation fruitless. Enjoy your rosy visions. Or, if you'd rather wake up, try some books by Howard Zinn, Theodore Allen, James Loewen, David Roediger, or Ronald Takaki.
classical one, your refusal to see that what you call a democracy has always been instead a plutocracy
America is a plutocracy but this is a very recent phenomenon. The more appropriate model is now western Europe, which enjoys a higher quality of life overall than most places in the states. However it's only the theories that allowed the start of the American revolution that enabled Europe to eventually become democratic.
Howard Zinn and most of his kind are Marxists and it's hard to think of a more ridiculous theory than Marxism which has been responsible for some of the worst regimes in history, some solution.
One last word--although Zinn has identified with Marxism, dismissing his clear-eyed, ground-level, anti-authoritarian view of history for that reason, and lumping him together with the others I mentioned as that "kind," are both ridiculous. Oh, and one more word--just because the American empire has managed to outdo others doesn't make it a better one.
I see what you're saying, Siditty. I guess "community organizer" isn't the label they'd use for members of their own party doing that kind of work. After all, "community" sounds a lot like . . . "communism"!
To some, anything that doesn't agree with their stance is seen as communism :)
classical one, you seem to have quite a nostalgic view of the founding fathers. Where, for one, are the founding mothers in that picture? And aside from their sexism, what about their rampant racism and classism?
I don't think C1 was saying they were not without faults(please correct me if I am wrong). There is no doubt in my mind those founders had their own agendas, but the founding principles of this country have been widely emulated and did inspire many. The government set up for that time was completely radical. I do think other nations would have eventually came up with a similar model, with or without inspiration for America, but I do think that since the U.S. started it, it should get credit for it. Now in terms of the racism and sexism of our founding fathers, I don't think anyone will deny that. It can't be denied, it happened.
I think many times people want to see things black or white, not gray, and it is important to point out both the strengths and weaknesses of these individuals to gain an understanding of how America is today.
I do love J Smooth!! Thanks for posting that Sidity!!!
What the republicans forget in their orgy of fear mongering in St. Paul is the true character of the father's. Their right wing Christian character and belief in force of arms and militarism over science and reason flys in the face of the words of the fathers; they were not Christians but Deists and not militarists but revolutionaries.
I believe that they are afraid of change as much as they say that they are the "Real" change the country needs and they continue to harp on experience. Instead of discussing the real issues that affect the people, they fall back on the same stale tactics that they always have. And you are right about the founding fathers, they were revolutionaries and in order to be a revolutionary, you have to do things differently. Personal attacks, cronyism and double standards are all that I see when I look at McCain and Palin because that's all they have. Certainly no substance to actually be in touch with the people they "claim" they want to help. "Community Organizer" should not be used as a dirty word and Palin was wrong for demonizing it as such. BTW, what does Deism mean to you, C-1?? I actually looked it up and it sounds a lot like being agnostic.
This guy is a genius!
So, just thought I'd let ya know that my school is hosting one of the VP debates...
we'll see how that one goes!
-Lanna
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