I find it funny his satire doesn't extend to Jewish people.
Some background on this guy:
Ari Shaffir
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ari Shaffir (born 1974) is a Jewish-American comedian, writer and actor currently living in Los Angeles, California. Shaffir received a B.A. in English from the University Of Maryland, College Park in 1999 and he also attended Yeshiva University.[1].
He has performed live at The Comedy Store in Los Angeles, California and has featured on two National Lampoon DVDs: Lost Reality and Lost Reality 2.
The Amazing Racist
Amongst other work, Shaffir is probably most well known for a series of comedy works entitled The Amazing Racist (the title is a play on that of reality television show The Amazing Race). In these shorts the Amazing Racist is seen acting in a manner which is overtly racist. Shaffir filmed many of his offensive encounters for the DVD, National Lampoon's Lost Reality.
Shaffir has been accused of promoting more racial hate through his videos. In an article by the Southern Poverty Law Center, hate group members are quoted about how they can actually use some of Shaffir's ideas then expand and "run with" those ideas. [2] On July 13th One of his videos has appeared on Tarrant on TV in the UK.
44 comments:
Not funny at all. I have found many Jewish comedians to be particularly offensive. I think they assume they have that right since they had the holocaust. That seems to give them a pass to indirectly insult minorities especially blacks. To me this is Jewish racism that no one is supposed to talk about. If you do then you are anti semitic. So they continue to have that free pass.
Why doesn't a Black comedian make some "jokes" targeting the Jewish community and see what happens? Why haven't any of the Black comedians (Chris Rock, Steve Harvey, etc.) confront this dude? Why are Black people tolerating this kind of foolishness in 2008?
I have no problem with free speech, but I know quite well that certain people cannot and will not tolerate free speech directed against them.
Let's keep in real.
One of the most important aspects of good modern satire is for the satire itself to actually be funny. Maybe its just me, but I didn't laugh at this guys antics!
This is the thing with jewish people they tend to think the holocaust gives them permission to make fun of everyone !I don't get it. They also seem to embrace their stereotypes i notice.
HOWEVER i'm sorry but i think it's stupid that the word Oriental is racist ! In the UK it is not a racist word. And not all asians in america are asian american the same as not all blacks in america are african-american.
Okay wait i just watched the rest of one of his video's: THIS GUY IS HORRIBLE its not funny he is just plain racist :-O !!!!!!!!!!!
That faux-comedian is an idiot. A real comedian who excels at satire is Sasha Cohen who starred in the movie Borat.
That was horrifying. To believe a
powerful white male would torture people for pleasure is an abomination.
That he is Jewish, is also outrageous. Much like Sarah Silverman, too many Jewish comics believe they are 'edgy' when they're racist.
At some point, they've got to be called on this shit.
The conundrum, is that Jews as a group are so powerful, you could really ruin your chance at a livelihood, if you did.
I am not going to say this is a trait of Jewish comedians, but I will say, that if he was truly concerned about humor and satire, why has he not focused his aim on satire of the Jewish community. I am really uncomfortable with the racial slurs he uses so freely in the name of humor. The worst part is, it isn't even funny.
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One of the most important aspects of good modern satire is for the satire itself to actually be funny. Maybe its just me, but I didn't laugh at this guys antics!
I agree
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That he is Jewish, is also outrageous. Much like Sarah Silverman, too many Jewish comics believe they are 'edgy' when they're racist.
I don't understand why edgy in this day and age equates to being just straight up annoying and offensive. Is the act of being offensive funny in itself? There are tons of comedians who are able to do edgy and funny. He is not one of them.
These types of Jewish comedians are hardcore racists but have found humor to express themselves.
The holocaust took away their ability for them to be directly oppressive, atleast in the US, so now to let it out they use
"entertainment". I don't buy Jewish racial satire at all. Its a veil for the real racism they harbor. But since they took part in the Civil rights movement they can't be racist, can they ?
As for Sarah Silverman, she makes me sick. I can watch her for a minute.
"The holocaust took away their ability for them to be directly oppressive, atleast in the US,"
I don't even know what to say to that...
Sarah Silverman annoys me soo much. Because her shows sell-out and i keep wondering what kind of humour does she actually have tht people like?who goes to her shows??? i think i laughed at oe joke once. What is most annoying is that she is actually quiet pretty too...ergh
From my experience, from when I lived in various Jewish community in America, there is more than 1 type of Jewish community.
1) Assimilated Jews, mostly from Europe, who see themselves as "white."
2) Religious Jews who separate themselves from American society, yet still take on some of the social norms of said society.
3) Israelis, and Jews who are just average people in said society.
I have found that the use of the type of humor, as the person in this video uses, is not based on anything doing with the Holocaust. You have to remember that not all Jews were directly affected by the Holocaust. So there are a lot of Jews who don't have a direct link to the after affects of the Holocaust. I attribute this kind of humor to 2 things.
1) A rejection of real traditional Judaism.
2) The desire to be accepted into mainstream "white" Western society.
I think what you will find about "Western" Ashkenazi Jewish humor when it comes to race is that Jews who have accepted Westernization view themselves as White. That being said those who fall in that category of tending to take on "white" modes of thinking and acting in order to almost validate themselves in "Western" society.
Jews who tend to be prejudice, yet are outwardly religious looking, tend to steer away from overly public displays of prejudice. Jews who are prejudice and not religious tend to be very public about their racial issues, as mentioned before because they see themselves a part of the white "ruling class" so to speak. That is until they are reminded by said class that they are not really a part of it.
I have found that the best way to confront these types of Jews, i.e. the assimilated ones like the guy doing these videos, is to point out strongly, and even harshly that they are not even living by a standard that can "traditionally" define themselves as Jewish. There is a simple reason why.
There is a Jewish concept called Avodah Zara, which dictates the types of behavior that a Jew is supposed to stay away from and not imitate, because it is the way of the pagans. How one talks, acts, and portrays others is a part of this, but is often ignored by assimilated Jews, or Jews who accept Western concepts. I have confronted a number of assimilated Jews who act, speak, or talk like racists that they are acting like pagens, i.e. anti-Jewish.
It changes the entire level of the conversation since Jewish religious and legal texts say that a REAL Jew is one who rejects the ways of the pagans i.e. Avodah Zara. Racism is paganism in a form, so that is the argument I use against them.
Take a look at 99% of Jewish comedians in the west and you will see that they reject Judaism, even though they will claim to be ethnically Jewish they are simply and plain trying to act "white."
You can go down the list, and I can show you how they reject Judaism in how they act and in who they are really trying to entertain. I.e. what they are saying is. White people, look at us we are not "really" Jewish we are "white" just like you guys. See we can talk about race the same way you do. etc.
In terms of Black Comedians targeting the Jewish community. I personally think that there would be no problem with it, BUT if I were a non-Jewish Black comedian I would target the assimilated Jews in the west who want to be considered white so bad. There are a number of things that can be said on that, that can't be protested because they are said within Jewish communities all over the place. It is just a matter of knowing the right jokes that are about assimilated Jews, and western Jews.
One correction I would make. I don't think he is Ashkenazi i.e. a European descended Jew. Based on his last name. So it is more than possible his family never first hand experienced the Holocaust. I still believe that, based on what he considers satire, that his humor is derived from trying to fit into the way that certain elements of "white" Western society talks. Just my humble opinion.
Saw some of his other videos on Youtube and yeah.. not funny. I really think white comedians (Jewish Europeans included) should avoid racial humor if at all possible. I'm not trying to be politically incorrect but there are better issues that are more appropriate for them to be covering.
"The holocaust took away their ability for them to be directly oppressive, atleast in the US,"
I don't even know what to say to that..."
Well its my personal opinion. I have encountered real Jewish racism and know afew Africans who have. I don't know about AAs. Keep in mind I am speaking of the experiences here in America and not in Israel. Though I have heard horror stories from there too. The most recent being that black guy that was ordered to dance at the Airport.
"You have to remember that not all Jews were directly affected by the Holocaust. So there are a lot of Jews who don't have a direct link to the after affects of the Holocaust. I attribute this kind of humor to 2 things".
The argument that there are jews that are not directly affected by the holocaust and therefore not likely to be influenced by it in this way is wanting. That is the story of American Jews. The holocaust, as per media and those you encounter on a daily bases, one has to be constantly reminded of it. Infact here in L.A there is abit of friction between Almenians and Jews because the former believe the Jews have monopolized genocide victimhood.
Its not a secret that there is a holocaust card just like there is a race card and I have seen this at play.
I remember one time we had a debate in class and there were those with conservative views on homosexuality. Personally I am not liberal about it but not an extreme conservative about it either, and I expressed my right of center views and so did others, the instructor then had to tell us about the holocaust story etc, himself being a Jew. The discussion ended right there once the holocaust came up.
Just because I happen to have slightly conservative views does not mean I want to round up gays and kill them. A human being is a human being first and foremost, I may not agree with their lifestyle and I express it but I shouldn't be silenced because the holocaust happened.
But no, you can't say that here because its anti-semitic.
Like I have said before, I have heard some of the most vile things said by Jews (in America) about blacks especially AAs. Its simply because of their history that their attitudes can not be turned into real practical hatred, judging from the ones I have encountered atleast. Its constant threats of anti-semitism that keeps them defending blacks and reaching out to them.
Otherwise if they had nothing to gain out of the relationship, the Jews(white Jews in America) would be like everyone else, looking down and spitting on blacks.
I have directly experienced this phenomenon from two class mates who would not even acknowledge my presence, then when they got into an argument with our Hispanic instructor regarding Jews, they managed to deflect the argument to the African American struggle in this country. At this point they never even knew that I was not AA but where trying to get my backup after all we are both oppressed. Aren't we?
I know this doesn't sound good to you as a Jew but this is my experience that has formed my opinion and I am just expressing it.
Lastly, the Jews I have met get tongue tied when I tell them that one of my countries is Rwanda.
I had to drop a class because the instructor who happened to be Jewish felt uncomfortable pulling the holocaust card since I was from Rwanda. This woman was talking incessantly about the holocaust. The nature of the class was that she could do that. It was the type of class that you could come in or do your work from home. Of all people that were flexing their time, she took issue with me and got me reported to the Administration. I didn't realize what was going on until another student that was Jewish too told me what was going on. He could not stand her for some reason and he wanted me to report her.
Its my belief that its the holocaust and Anti-Semitism in the states that checks Jewish racism.
"Take a look at 99% of Jewish comedians in the west and you will see that they reject Judaism, even though they will claim to be ethnically Jewish they are simply and plain trying to act "white.""
I think we have a problem of definition. We over here see the Jews as the ones you define as the Westernized assimilated ones. And my experiences are primarily with this type. Other than yourself and Miriam ofcourse.
But keep in mind these Jews do not entirely break away from Jewishness. So they may attempt to assimilate to whiteness but they still enjoy Jewish privilage part of which is the holocaust card and some Jewish heritage. These are the same Jews that won't vote for an American President that won't support Israel. So in many ways they are still part of the Jewish structure no matter how assimilated they appear and they can never completely break away. Inotherwords they hold the banner for you guys out here.
Sarah Silverman anyone? She's not funny and beats down everyone and everything she jokes about.
I get the fact that he's attempting to be funny, but he is failing miserably at it. He's trying too hard to be Sascha Baron Cohen(Borat). This guy's "Satire" seems to be really mean spirited and not very funny at all. I totally agree that Sarah Silverman is a prime example of mean-spirited. Lisa Lampagnella is another one-- she's horrible. The thing with Sascha(Borat), though is that he pokes fun at everybody, even the Jews--his people. I remember the heat he took about Borat from Jewish groups. But this guy-- I'm not so sure about. He seems to be a real racist who is trying to cover it up by passing himself off as a comedian.
I want to be clear that being a Jewish comedian doesn't automatically render you racist, or for that matter, even Jewish.
It's just that way more Jewish comedians take shots (that can't be returned) that are painful and ugly.
We have a HUGE number of black comedians who do unfunny harm, with their "white people do this" and "black people do this" schtick. It just hurts my feelings, when Jewish comedians do it for the cheap.
That said: just be funny. Don't base it upon your lineage, unless it's actually funny. "White people do it this way, and black people do it THAT way" is some tired nonsense.
Using hurtful stereotypes, words, and monolithic generalizations hurt everyone. Even when they don't know it.
Bring the funny, and leave your baggage in the dumpster.
That said, the racist joker in the video, driving the undocumented workers to the INS wasn't funny. He was just cruel.
The world could do with a whole lot less of him, than people looking for slave-wage work.
One correction I would make. I don't think he is Ashkenazi i.e. a European descended Jew. Based on his last name. So it is more than possible his family never first hand experienced the Holocaust. I still believe that, based on what he considers satire, that his humor is derived from trying to fit into the way that certain elements of "white" Western society talks. Just my humble opinion.
I so definitely agree.Off topic, I cried a little bit watching the Prairie View Grambling game. It was a bit hurtful. But the bands rocked!!!!!
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Saw some of his other videos on Youtube and yeah.. not funny. I really think white comedians (Jewish Europeans included) should avoid racial humor if at all possible. I'm not trying to be politically incorrect but there are better issues that are more appropriate for them to be covering.
I just want them to be funny when they do use racial humor and not just annoying.
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Well its my personal opinion. I have encountered real Jewish racism and know afew Africans who have. I don't know about AAs. Keep in mind I am speaking of the experiences here in America and not in Israel. Though I have heard horror stories from there too. The most recent being that black guy that was ordered to dance at the Airport.
I can say my exposure to Jewish people is very limited. My husband's aunt and uncle are converts to Jews for Jesus, but I don't count them as such because they have some warped views of their adopted religion.
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I get the fact that he's attempting to be funny, but he is failing miserably at it. He's trying too hard to be Sascha Baron Cohen(Borat). This guy's "Satire" seems to be really mean spirited and not very funny at all. I totally agree that Sarah Silverman is a prime example of mean-spirited. Lisa Lampagnella is another one-- she's horrible. The thing with Sascha(Borat), though is that he pokes fun at everybody, even the Jews--his people. I remember the heat he took about Borat from Jewish groups. But this guy-- I'm not so sure about. He seems to be a real racist who is trying to cover it up by passing himself off as a comedian.
Sascha Baron Cohen is funny and cute, it works well for him, but he makes fun of everyone, which is why I like him so.
Grata, I was actually objecting to your use of the phrase 'took away.' Jews have not had, in the recent past (IE past 500 years) outside of Israel, the ability to oppress people, outside of individual actions like the ones you use to generalize about Jews and Jewishness.
The fact that conversations are shut down by accusations of anti-semitism is unfortunate and it's something I see complained about a lot, but I rarely see any actual conversations shut down. If I had accused you of anti-semitism would you have scampered off, frightened away from this blog? Would Siditty have shut this page down for comments, terrified of the "Great Jewish Conspiracy" (TM) descending upon her website and shutting it down? I doubt it.
It seems to me that this is quite like the spector of voter fraud, a much discussed menace which in reality occurs only rarely and is ineffective when it does occur.
Grata Wrote
I think we have a problem of definition. We over here see the Jews as the ones you define as the Westernized assimilated ones. And my experiences are primarily with this type. Other than yourself and Miriam of course.
But keep in mind these Jews do not entirely break away from Jewishness. So they may attempt to assimilate to whiteness but they still enjoy Jewish privilege part of which is the holocaust card and some Jewish heritage. These are the same Jews that won't vote for an American President that won't support Israel. So in many ways they are still part of the Jewish structure no matter how assimilated they appear and they can never completely break away. Inotherwords they hold the banner for you guys out here.
Ehav's Response
Greetings Grata. The "definition" issue is why I am pointing out that there are "cultural" differences between Jews; Religious vs. Assimilated, Religious Racists vs. Religious non-Racists, European vs. Non-European, Westernized vs. Non-Westernized, Sephardic vs. Ashknazi, Israeli vs. non-Israelis, etc. All kinds of mindsets and morals exist depending on what group a Jew falls into. For example, I can tell by the comments of yourself and others that you are talking about a "particular" group of Jews. Your description of their words, actions, and their use of the "Holocaust" card points out to me several things.
1) The majority of the people you are talking about are assimilated Jews, based on the definition I gave earlier.
2) A fraction of the Jews you are talking about, are primarily seeking white privilege, while at the same time seeking to define themselves as Jewish.
3) The Jews you are talking about are predominately of European Jewish descent.
4) A fraction of them are Jews of North African and Middle Eastern, who can pass for white or something close to it.
I can tell all these things because of as I mentioned before Jews who are assimilated act a certain way. This has been true throughout Jewish history. For example, about 2,500 or so years ago there were a number of Jews who had assimilated into Greek culture by way of Helenization. They spoke, lived, and breathed Helenization yet they wanted to try and pull out the Jewish card when it was personally advantageous. They on some level hated Judaism, thus their acceptance of Helenization, and they were hated by religious Jews. Why were they hated by religious Jews? Because as I mentioned before a religious Jew rejects the ways of the pagans. There were a lot of religious Jews during that time who would not even learn Greek, even if they lived in a Greek society because they rejected the idea of talking like the pagans. The only thing that changed that situation was when the Helenized Assyrians attacked both the Helenized Jews and the Religious Jews. After that point the Helenized Jews disappeared, at least until the enlightenment in Europe began when certain European Jews again were doing anything they could to be accepted by European society, just like the Helanized Jews several thousand years before them.
So just as one can find philosophical, historical, and cultural differences between African Americans one can also find the same amongst Jews. It is no different than all the gangster rappers, video vixens, etc. who play the African American unity card when it is to their personal advantage, yet they do things that hurt African Americans. You can find these kind of people ALL OVER the world. That is just how some people are they want to reject the CORE of something while trying to use the outer edges of it when it is to their personal advantage. The whole point of assimilating is for some level of advantage. Jews who assimilated prior to WW1 and WWII were partially doing so because they felt they could be accepted as European by rejected the religious elements of Judaism, while clinging on to elements of the culture.
Siddity once made an very good argument on a blog of a Jewish girl from America who wanted so badly to be called white. Siddity asked her why "white" privilege was so important to her. That to me is the best question for an assimilated Jew, especially seeing how the history of assimilated Jews has been that eventually the people they are working so hard to please will eventually reject them because of the heritage that they "the assimilated Jew" rejects. Assimilated Jews also disappear at a certain point because their children and grandchildren either all out reject a Jewish connection, or their children or grandchildren long to be Jewish and become religious. One of the growing fears in the US amongst a number of Jews, before I left was all the Jews who are assimilated and disappearing from the Jewish fold. There are whole movements in America, and in Asia, to try to bring assimilated Jews back to Judaism.
I recently started receiving messages on my YouTube account from a guy in America, who claimed to be Jewish, saying all kind of racist things. For about a week and a half we went back and forth, with him calling me all kind of names and such. Yet, as soon as I challenged his knowledge of Judaism as well as his understanding of Judaism, and whether he even lives as a Jew his arguments became shorter and shorter. He at one point had to acknowledge that I know a LOT more about Judaism than he does. Then I told him I would educate him on what he obviously was never taught. So every time he sent me something negative I sent him a lost of Jewish laws concerning things that by his words and rejection of religious Judaism, that made him essentially a pagan and not a Jew, based on what I posted above and also in my previous comment. I kept that up for two days and then he stopped emailing me. I told him at the start that he was going to have to decide how much time he was willing to spend on such a debate, since I have more time and I have more on my side, as well as I won't stop hitting the fact that he was a assimilated Jew trying to appease the pagans.
So back to the point, if you REALLY want to get at the core of an assimilated Jew, then attack the core issue. They are assimilated and they reject the ONLY thing that REALLY makes them Jewish, i.e. they reject the Torah simple and plain. There is a section of the Talmud that states that a REAL Jew is one who rejects Avodah Zara i.e. the ways of the pagans, and accepts the Torah. As I mentioned before racism is one the ways of the pagans, and as soon as a Jew starts talking like a pagan, he/she is rejecting something in the basic core of Judaism. For example, there are some religious Jews who believe that the Holocaust happened because of all of the assimilated Jews in Europe who wanted to be European so bad. I know Jews who believe another Holocoust may happen because of all the assimilation, not just in America but even here in Israel. Whether this is true or not is up for debate, but maybe there is a point to it. The idea of the Haskala i.e. elightenment movement was that they could be European 1st and on the side culturally Jewish. That is why the Reform and Reconstrutionist Jewish movements for the most part reject the majority of Judaism as a religion, and accept the things that will keep them just Jewish enough to claim it as a culture. There is a belief that the most dangerous people against Judaism and Jews alike are assimilated Jews. The reason is because they will say and do anything in order to either pass themselves as pagans, including for some doing what they can to destroy Jews who follow Judaism.
Grata Wrote:
The argument that there are jews that are not directly affected by the holocaust and therefore not likely to be influenced by it in this way is wanting. That is the story of American Jews. The holocaust, as per media and those you encounter on a daily bases, one has to be constantly reminded of it. Infact here in L.A there is abit of friction between Armenians and Jews because the former believe the Jews have monopolized genocide victimhood. Its not a secret that there is a holocaust card just like there is a race card and I have seen this at play.
Ehav's Response
I think you missed my point. The Holocaust is just a cover for the real issue. I.e. Jews who want to be white or accepted by "Americans" and Europeans so bad. For those kind of assimilated Jews, the Holocaust is only a cover for the real problem. It is a bit complex, but I will try to explain what I mean. Lets use this Ari Shariff guy for a moment. As I mentioned before Shariff is not a common last name for a European Jew. That leads me to believe that Ari Shariff is the descendant of Mizrihi Jews, i.e. Jews from some part of the Middle East. It is possible, with the last name Shariff, that his family could have been Syrian Jews, Persian Jews, or Iraqi Jews who left those areas and settled in America within the last 60 to 70 years.
There is an entirely different history of what the Jews of Syrian, Iran, Iraq, etc. experienced that MOST Jews never learn. Most Jewish schools do a thorough treatment of European Jewish history, but very little is ever taught on Middle Eastern, African, or Asian Jewish history. So what happens in the west is that Jews who aren't even European are taught to think like Europeans. Most Jewish schools in the West, even the religious ones, predominately teach from a European Jewish mindset or curriculum. When I lived in the states I was considered an Encyclopedia of Jewish history, since I knew almost every Jewish community's history, but that is because I did a lot of outside study and I spent time in as many Jewish communities as I could. I also never considered myself a "Western Jew," in fact I didn't consider myself American so I didn't have the whole Euro-Jewish mindset. I had a number of friends in the US that I wanted to just grad them and shake them saying, Wake up! Your parents were from Algeria/Yemen/Morocco/Iran/Syria/Iraq man, not from Poland. Why are you acting lik you are from Europe?
That being said, the Holocaust in Europe did not directly affect the Jews in Syria, Iran, Iraq, North Africa, Yemen, etc. Although the Nazis were making plans up to spread their efforts to the Middle East and Africa. We also know that the Thus that is why even those of us who are not Ashkenazi Jews, take the Holocaust very seriously. So even though, it didn't start out as something to destroy my family the Nazis had plans on getting to the rest of us in the future. Yet, I would be hard pressed to try and use the Holocaust card, because visibly people would know I was not from Europe. Yet, there are some Jews, those who are of lighter complexion, who even if they are not from Europe, think like they are from Europe i.e. Hey look at me, I am not really a Jew and I am not from the Middle East or Africa. I am really white like you guys. Please accept me, please, please, please. While on the side they put on their kippa at Jewish events and try to say, Look at me I am still Jewish. See I can make a few jokes about being Jewish, and I can put on a kippa. The whole point of assimilation, at least for Jews, is to try to play whatever card is the safest or the most advantages. Not which one is the moral or right card to play.
Okay, so lets take a look at that. If I know the above to be true, and if I know that the racists who formed most of the current racist thinking and ideology against Africans and African Americans were also antisemites it would be completely illogical for me to accept said racist thinking and ideology. So if I were to call out a fellow Jew on racism I would use the following argument.
"How can you accept such racist nonsense? Why is it so important for you to gain white privilege? The entire point of Judaism is to reject incorrect assertions, mythologies, mindsets, untruths, incorrect ways of speaking, dressing, and acting. Yet, you have accepted things that were rejected by many of your so called ancestors. With all the things that the antisemites have done to your people how can you now stand here and talk in the same way as those same antisemites? You can run around all day long talking about the Holocaust, but you can't claim to reject antisemitism and yet accept racism. They are the same thing, and the people who created the racists ideologies you spout would be just as eager to lynch you. Just as they said when they lynched a Jew by the name of Lee Frank in 1915, "put Jew Libertines on notice. The next Jew who does what Frank did is going to get exactly the same thing we give the Negro." Yet, the bigger issue is your rejection of what your own religion teaches. Your religion teaches against the racism you have accepted, but then again when you reject Judaism you become a pagan, so now I guess you enjoy talking like the pagans. The Nazis were pagans, the skin-heads are pagans, the KKK are pagans, and now you talk just like them because you want to be accepted as white so bad. By accepting racism, you are in affect rejecting your own Judaism, and if that is the case God help you. You are a disgrace to the people you claim are your ancestors. You are NOTHING like what has been written about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Of course there are a whole slew of Hebrew terms I would throw in there, but I think you get the point that I make to such people.
I once spoke like this to an old Ashkenazi man at a Reform Jewish Passover Seder, because he said some things about Israelis that I didn't like. Even though did not grow up here or experience things that average Israelis experience. When I confronted him on this he told me that to him I sounded like an antisemite. Of course, the conversation that started the whole thing was between me and some other people. He decided to butt in and interrupt, so I gave him a piece of my mind. Of course he is in America living his fantasy life, while I am in Israel dealing with the reality. This is one of the reasons I don't like being around assimilated Jews, that much. They will say anything and do everything, and I can't reason with most of them. With a religious Jew, or a semi-religious Jew I can at least try to bring them back to the table of Judaism. I can at least make a valid point, that he/she, may listen to based on our common beliefs. With a completely assimilated Jew they reject that kind of reasoning because it is more convient to reject Judaism, than to accept it.
Another problem I remember from my time in America was almost a competition between CERTAIN Jews and CERTAIN African Americans about who had it worse. American slavery vs. the Holocaust. Personally, I have always felt like this was one of the DUMBEST debates I have ever heard. To me this was/is a pointless debate, which has helped to create a number of frictions between American Jews and African Americans. As far as I am concerned American Slavery and the Holocaust are NOT in any way the same thing. They are different situations, and the only thing they have in common is that the individuals who perpetuated them were sick and evil bastards whose names will be erased out of the book of life. The other thing they have in common is that both situations killed, hurt, maimed, scarred, and traumatized millions of people and their descendants. Other than that they are not the same and are not comparable. There is is no reason for a Jew or an African American to sit down and argue over who got the worst whipping. Both sides took a lot of bad hits from the two situations and on some level a guy getting lynched and a guy being gassed are simply two MEN being killed by inhuman scum (inhuman scum being Nazis, KKK, etc.)
I find it mildly amusing, Ehav, that you seem to view assimilation into the majority culture (at least here in the States) as a negative, but assimilation/conversion into or back to Judaism as a good thing.
"They spoke, lived, and breathed Helenization yet they wanted to try and pull out the Jewish card when it was personally advantageous [I assume you mean when dealing with other Jews]. They on some level hated Judaism, thus their acceptance of Helenization,"
You don't have to hate Judaism to recognize that there are some parts of Hellenism that are good and should be adopted. An entirely unrealistic example: having watched the Persians getting their asses roundly kicked by phalanxes, should Jews have stuck with the old "we get all together and throw stuff at them, then charge screaming at them" battle plan?
"Assimilated Jews also disappear at a certain point because their children and grandchildren either all out reject a Jewish connection, or their children or grandchildren long to be Jewish and become religious."
I'm not sure I agree here either. As the grandson of an assimilated Jew, I don't have any particular interest in doing serious study of the Torah, but neither do I reject that part of me. And now, having done what I chided Grata for doing (extrapolating from personal experience to a larger theory) I scamper away.
Even Wrote:
I find it mildly amusing, Ehav, that you seem to view assimilation into the majority culture (at least here in the States) as a negative, but assimilation/conversion into or back to Judaism as a good thing.
Ehav Wrote:
Greetings Evan. I am always glad to amuse. (smile) In terms of assimilation/conversion into Judaism. I don't remember stating for one to assimilate or convert into Judaism. I definitely didn't say ANYTHING about people converting to Judaism. A can't assimilate into Judaism, as far as I am concerned. That is something that is Jewish to begin with, so a person who is Jewish doesn't assimilate into something that is his/her culture to begin with.
If someone who is Jewish claims that the culture of their ancestors is something foreign, then that is a different story all together. We are dealing with a situation where someone who claims to be Jewish, has issues with antisemitism, yet is a racist. To me that spells assimilation and rejection of the very things that makes someone Jewish, outside of the legal status of being Jewish. I.e. Jewish mother or conversion.
If someone is Jewish they are Jewish simple and plain. The traditions of Judaism belongs to all Jews, whether they accept it or reject it. If they reject fine. If they accept it fine. My issue is with Jews who assimilate so they can become "white" in the sense of this conversation and in their rejection of Judaism they, which as is the tone of this conversation, they also assimilate racists concepts and theories.
Once again, we are talking about a situation of said Jews who are simple striving to be American Jews, or Jews living in America. We are talking about Jews who take on "white" racist ideas and concepts while at the same time playing the Jewish card. I am saying playing it out that way is a form of Avodah Zara i.e. a rejection of Judaism i.e. assimilation.
Evan Wrote:
You don't have to hate Judaism to recognize that there are some parts of Hellenism that are good and should be adopted. An entirely unrealistic example: having watched the Persians getting their asses roundly kicked by phalanxes, should Jews have stuck with the old "we get all together and throw stuff at them, then charge screaming at them" battle plan?
Ehav's Responnse
Greetings Even. From a purely Torah sense I disagree that Hellenism provided anything that was needed in Judaism. Using your example on battle tactics. I don't agree that understanding the tactics of your enemies is a part of assimilating into their culture. Understanding enemy tactics is a part of warfare.
Using the technology of the day is one thing as compared to assimilating into culture. That happens all the time. For example, I train in a Jewish martial Abir, but I also watch how other martial arts work. Not to learn them as an insider, but to know what I may potentially be up against it. Yet, I won't take classes in foreign martial arts because most them are based on Avodah Zara. The ones that are not would be okay, but in Abir I have everything I need to adjust my tactics if need be.
In terms of your statement having watched the Persians getting their asses roundly kicked by phalanxes, should Jews have stuck with the old "we get all together and throw stuff at them, then charge screaming at them" battle plan?
I know that you are being a bit sarcastic, but I don't know of any "Jewish" any such battle plan as throwing stuff at them. I do know of a Jewish battle of using one's terrain as a weapon against phalanx style of armies. I also know of a Jewish battle tactic of attacking larger armies from multiple positions. I also know of Jewish battle tactics of night time raids, that are set up to make the enemy thing he is being attacked by a larger force. I also know of the Jewish battle tactic of using smaller and lighter infantry. All of these I learned by way of the Sefer Ha-Yashar and the Seferim Hitzununim. So I don't believe that there was anything in Hellenism that was needed in Judaism.
Evan Wrote:
I'm not sure I agree here either. As the grandson of an assimilated Jew, I don't have any particular interest in doing serious study of the Torah, but neither do I reject that part of me. And now, having done what I chided Grata for doing (extrapolating from personal experience to a larger theory) I scamper away.
Ehav's Response
The issue with the modern assimilation is that it isn't a finished story yet. I personally, only start the modern assimilation within the last 70 to 80 years. Even though the Haskalah movement started earlier, not having a state of Israel, I believe, kept it at a certain level. I find it interesting that for the most part in Mizrahi and Maghrebi Jewish cultures there were a number of Jews who had no problem using the technology/knowledge of their day without assimilating into the majority culture. That may have been because in the Middle East and Africa there was no such thing as assimilating and still being Jewish. Assimilating in the Middle East and Africa meant only one thing, you were Muslim not Jewish anymore. There was no in between for the most part.
We have also not had a major upheaval, as with previous assimilations. We currently also have an independent state of Israel at this point. Which, like the previous assimilations keeps some elements of it at check.
There is a good book you should read if you get the chance called Sephardic Responses to Modernity.
The fact that conversations are shut down by accusations of anti-semitism is unfortunate and it's something I see complained about a lot, but I rarely see any actual conversations shut down. If I had accused you of anti-semitism would you have scampered off, frightened away from this blog? Would Siditty have shut this page down for comments, terrified of the "Great Jewish Conspiracy" (TM) descending upon her website and shutting it down? I doubt it.
I'm removing this post, I am scared of the Great Jewish Conspiracy. OK not really. I just wanted to lighten the mood. I am not scared of Jews nor do I think they are all out to get me. I just think this guy The Amazing Racist is an idiot.
Ehav: "I know that you are being a bit sarcastic, but I don't know of any "Jewish" any such battle plan as throwing stuff at them. I do know of a Jewish battle of using one's terrain as a weapon against phalanx style of armies. I also know of a Jewish battle tactic of attacking larger armies from multiple positions. I also know of Jewish battle tactics of night time raids, that are set up to make the enemy thing he is being attacked by a larger force. I also know of the Jewish battle tactic of using smaller and lighter infantry. All of these I learned by way of the Sefer Ha-Yashar and the Seferim Hitzununim. So I don't believe that there was anything in Hellenism that was needed in Judaism."
Me: Obviously, I was being facetious with my battle plan, but the point I was trying to make is that there's a reason Alexander was able to conquer Persia and Judea (which was of course part of Persia at this point) a lot of that was him, but as much was superior equipment, training and tactics on the part of the Macedonians and Greeks in general. And, yes, bits of that were adopted all over the place, because it worked. To use your martial arts example (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm way outside my expertise zone here) don't martial arts evolve as they interact with other styles? Aren't bits of them incorporated into each other, within certain limits of course.
Oh, and maybe I'm wrong, but my impression was basically every battle in antiquity started by skirmishers on both sides throwing spears at one another. And that's not even mentioning slingers, javilineers or archers (okay, so I'm accepting a loose definition of 'throwing').
"Only teach thy sons the bow and all weapons of war, in order that they may fight the battles of their brother who will rule over his enemies." Jasher 56-9
Ehav: "If someone is Jewish they are Jewish simple and plain. The traditions of Judaism belongs to all Jews, whether they accept it or reject it. If they reject fine. If they accept it fine. My issue is with Jews who assimilate so they can become "white" in the sense of this conversation and in their rejection of Judaism they, which as is the tone of this conversation, they also assimilate racists concepts and theories."
Me again: I can certainly understand that, but I'm not sure how you would, or could tell what they're motives are. How do you tell the difference between someone with a crisis of faith and someone shedding their faith like a snake, seeking advantage?
And let's be fair, it's entirely possible for a Jew to be racist without rejecting Judaism and assimilating into 'white' culture.
It seems, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, as if you're avoiding the question of Jewish racism by defining a Jew (at least in part) as someone who is not racist. Therefore there is no problem with Jewish racism, there is just a problem with people who aren't true Jews calling themselves Jews.
Ehav: "There is a Jewish concept called Avodah Zara, which dictates the types of behavior that a Jew is supposed to stay away from and not imitate, because it is the way of the pagans. How one talks, acts, and portrays others is a part of this, but is often ignored by assimilated Jews, or Jews who accept Western concepts. I have confronted a number of assimilated Jews who act, speak, or talk like racists that they are acting like pagens, i.e. anti-Jewish."
Me again: Racism, as opposed to institutional racism is something that people, including Jewish people learn, imbibe and absorb from very early on in life. From the larger culture, from friends, from family. To say it is banned in Avodah Zara is to imagine that Jews are somehow superior to the rest of the world. Racism is not innate in anyone, but we all pick up some little bits of it. It's not the way of the pagans, it's the way of the world.
Well, that was a depressing response...
"I'm removing this post, I am scared of the Great Jewish Conspiracy. OK not really. I just wanted to lighten the mood. I am not scared of Jews nor do I think they are all out to get me. I just think this guy The Amazing Racist is an idiot."
You forgot the TM! It must be "Great Jewish Conspiracy" (TM)! Quick, to the lawyermobile!
And yes, the guy's an idiot and a jackass.
Sorry to drag you into the crossfire here. I've got to remember to pick my human shields more carefully.
Hey Siddity,
Don't close it down or I will have to get my lawyers on you. lol Evan is right, if we Jews have a conspiracy it is trade marked. lol
I completely agree with you that Ari Shaffir is an idiot. I looked at his My Space page, and it was really weird.
Evan Wrote
Obviously, I was being facetious with my battle plan, but the point I was trying to make is that there's a reason Alexander was able to conquer Persia and Judea (which was of course part of Persia at this point) a lot of that was him, but as much was superior equipment, training and tactics on the part of the Macedonians and Greeks in general. And, yes, bits of that were adopted all over the place, because it worked. To use your martial arts example (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm way outside my expertise zone here) don't martial arts evolve as they interact with other styles? Aren't bits of them incorporated into each other, within certain limits of course.
Ehav’s Response
I know you were being facetious, that was the word I was looking for earlier, but your point also helped me with my point. There is a difference in assimilating into a culture, and accepting the norms and values of said culture and studying how to properly defeat an army, as well as already have the abilities needed to defeat an opponent. When it comes to warfare, there is a difference in fighting an invading war vs. a defensive war to maintain ground.
Evan Wrote
Oh, and maybe I'm wrong, but my impression was basically every battle in antiquity started by skirmishers on both sides throwing spears at one another. And that's not even mentioning slingers, javilineers or archers (okay, so I'm accepting a loose definition of 'throwing').
Ehav’s Response
Not exactly. It depends on the army, where, and why they were fighting. No one EXACTLY knows what ancient combat consisted of outside of what the various wall paintings of the societies that recorded what they did show. There are a number of societies that have left us nothing about HOW they fought. Sometimes battles are over romanticized in movies and the like, but more than likely ancient wars consisted of a lot of charging, some throwing, some stealth maneuvers, some subterfuge, etc. Armies that used only one tactic, more than likely did not survive to tell the tale. A good example is how Shaka the Zulu monarch changed the face of Zulu fighting when he innovated the spears that his unit were using, as well as changing their tactics based on problems he saw with it. Many of the armies he faced were whiped off the map because he innovated something already existed in his army.
The Sefer Ha-Yashar states that Avraham’s father Terach was the warlord for Nimrod, king of Bavel. During that time history shows us that Bavel was starting to develop the use of trained standing armies. On a different note, when we get to Yaaqov (Jacob) and his sons they were often working off of smaller forces with faster striking capabilities. There are a number of Jewish texts that talk about the tactics that the ancient Ivrim (Hebrews) were using, and how they differed from some of the conventions of the time. Yosef (Josef), for example, is said to have led his own special unit when he was in Egyptian official. It is also stated that he and his family separate from most of Egyptian society to the point where Menashe and Shimon got into a fight, before it was know that Yosef was Yosef, and that Menashe hit Shimon in a way that immediately Shimon states that there is no way that this was something that came from the Egyptians and that it only could have come from the house of Yaaqov. Yehudah also mentions something similar in another situation of a test of strength against Menashe. Now of course Jewish writ also states that the Levites stayed away from Egyptian society and built their own city in Goshen. It states that the Levites never took part in the slavery that the rest of the Israelites were forced into because it. So as you can see the history of combat is a bit more complex, at least when we get the stage in history we are talking about.
Evan Wrote:
Me again: I can certainly understand that, but I'm not sure how you would, or could tell what they're motives are. How do you tell the difference between someone with a crisis of faith and someone shedding their faith like a snake, seeking advantage?
Ehav’s Response
A crisis in faith normally doesn’t turn into racism. So for example, I don’t believe that racism that comes from Jews is derived from a crisis in faith. I believe, especially in modern times, there is enough out there that people who use reason would know that 99% of racist ideals are founded on untrue or false notions.
To the bigger heart of your question, there is nothing anti-Judaic, about having a crisis in faith. These things happen, and they are a reality. There are numerous stories in Judaism with Jews and non-Jews having a crisis in faith. Job was not a Jew and he had a big crisis in faith. Yethro was not a Jew and he had a big crisis of faith. Moses had several crisis of faith. That is the reality that we live in, and according to real Judaism Hashem (G-d) understands that. Yet, at some a person, for better or worse, has to deal with the crisis. Some people deal with it and some people turn away. Another way of dealing with it in a realistic and Judaic mannor. Just look at Yonah. Yet, to become a racist because of a crisis of faith is illogical and unreasonable. Especially, if you are in a position where you should be able to understand the feelings and physical hurt that racism causes those who are the victims of it.
This is especially, when one lives in a situation or in a time where people are not willing to use reason. A Jew who has questions about Judaism is a Jew with questions. A Jew who rejects Torah because he/she has not received a satifying answers is still a Jew who didn't get the right answer. There is not anti-Torah about having questions. The Tanakh is full of Israelites and Jews with questions, some of which don’t receive an official answer. Yet, to become racist out of the rejection, is illogical and unreasonable.
That is how I know the difference. A Jew who simple rejects Judaism is easy to spot. A racist Jew, is also easy to spot because he/she is rejecting Jewish reasoning. That is whether he/she is religious or not. If he/she is not religious then he/she is rejecting more and it is harder or even impossible to bring them back to the table. I assume that Ari Shaffir is one those types. He seems to revel, on his my space page, in the death threats he gets because of his act. From what I have seen of his TYPE of comedy he would not listen to reason. That is my opinion, and I hope I am wrong.
Evan Wrote:
And let's be fair, it's entirely possible for a Jew to be racist without rejecting Judaism and assimilating into 'white' culture.
Ehav's Response
Yes, and I wrote about that type of Jew. He/she can be confronted using Torah and reason. See my comments below. If they refuse Torah and reason they are in turn accepting Avodah Zara since the racism they have accepted comes from an outside source. I.e. it is not a valid Torah source. Also, see my response below on why. I learned that from a Sephardic Rabbi who taught that Jews who accept racism, even if they are rabbis or sages are rejecting things in Torah and accepting Avodah Zara.
Evan Wrote:
It seems, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, as if you're avoiding the question of Jewish racism by defining a Jew (at least in part) as someone who is not racist. Therefore there is no problem with Jewish racism, there is just a problem with people who aren't true Jews calling themselves Jews.
Ehav’s Response:
Actually, I am using what Jewish sources say about HOW a Jew is supposed to live I.E. a rejection of false assertions with no basis in Torah and Musar (ethics). Racism is based on false ideals ans assertions. It is also illogical and immoral. With all the advances in science and DNA to accept racism is foolish. I am defining a Torah observant, and even a semi-Torah observant Jew as someone who is either not racist OR can be brought out of the confines of racist ideologies using Torah and reason. Because he/she would have to recognize that, based on the Talmud, his job as an observant Jew is to reject Avodah Zara.
In part, a Jew, in a legal sense is one whose mother is Jewish or someone who converts to Judaism. Yet, there is a bigger issue, which requires Torah, ethics, and reason. The Rambam, for example, says that when the Torah says that Hashem (G-d) created humanity in His image what this means is that he gave humans the ability to use reason. One can claim being Jewish as a status till the sun goes down, but by itself it is only a status and thats all. Whether one accepts that the Har Sinai experience is real not, i.e. the whole God part of it, one can't deny that something happened several thousand years ago that caused a group of people to come out of the desert calling themselves Yisraelim (Israelites) and later Yehudim (Jews) proclaiming a text called the Torah to be their banner. The creation of a Jewish identify came after the creation of a religious identify. One rests on the other, not the other way around. If Har Sinai, in terms of locatin and founding, never took place there would be Jewish indentify. Something created it and it was the religion first and the culture last.
So if one chooses to accept Avodah Zara i.e. false truths, etc. Jewish sources say that a Jew who accepts Avodah Zara is not acting like a Jew. I.e. they have the heritage but that is ALL they have. They reject what created the heritage.
Once they accept Avodah Zara, the Jews who reject Avodah Zara are no longer responsible for them or their actions, unless they come back to the table. A Jew who is racist is rejecting something that is at the core Torah and Halakhah and that is reason and truth. What this means is that a Jew can easily be racist, the same way a non-Jew can be racist. Both have to simply reject REASON and TRUTH and there you have it. Being raised to reject REASON/TRUTH and making a willing choice to reject the reason/truth have the same result a rejection of reason/truth.
Judaism teaches that we Jews are no different than any other people on the planet, we can reject truth just as much anyone else. The truth of the matter is that racism is Avodah Zara, i.e. work foreign to Torah. I use the word paganism in English in order to amplify it a bit for people who don’t understand what Avodah Zara is. Yet, Avodah Zara is more than just the western concept of paganism. It covers a number of other things.
One example is the Hamaitc Myth. The first known account of it comes from Syrian Christian named Saint Ephrem who lived in the 3rd cent. Much of what he supposibly wrote on it was accepted by the church fathers. It shows up in CERTIAN Islamic texts in the 7th to 8th cent. It starts to show up in CERTAIN Jewish sources after about the 9th cent. It was also rejected by a number of Jewish sources.
It is worthy to note that earlier Jewish sources say that man cannot curse what Hashem (G-d) has already blessed. I.e. Hashem blessed all of Noach’s sons long before Noach uttered his curse of Canaan, not Ham. Yet, the later Jewish sources that accept the Hamatic Myth as truth did so because they accepted a foreign concept as a Jewish one. We also know that a number of Jewish texts were censured by certain European Christians, with certain things being inserted. Such as the prayer to the one who will not be named.
Even with the Hamatic Myth, is that each situation the words they used to describe said cursed people changed, and it did not always mean sub-Saharan Africans as a whole. I.e. they were often talking about a specific group of Sub-Saharan Africans and not all of them. Yet, over time it began to be applied as if the intent was Sub-Saharan Africans. Now, you have some people running around accepting later sources as if they were the originals. A classic example of assimilation and how accepting Avodah Zara is hurting Jews who accept the foreign or false views, because they were never taught to reason on them. It also hurts Jews who reject it because then they are being counted amongst those who reject reason.
Evan Wrote:
Me again: Racism, as opposed to institutional racism is something that people, including Jewish people learn, imbibe and absorb from very early on in life. From the larger culture, from friends, from family. To say it is banned in Avodah Zara is to imagine that Jews are somehow superior to the rest of the world. Racism is not innate in anyone, but we all pick up some little bits of it. It's not the way of the pagans, it's the way of the world.
Ehav’s Response
I don’t agree with the second part of your assertion, I agree with the part that SOME people learn racism. I believe that others accept it. Going back to the Rambam in the Guide to the Perplexed he teaches that ALL humans were given reason, not just some of them, not just the Jewish segment, but ALL humans have reason. So that means that all humans, from the so called 70 Nations have the ability to reason. It is what Hashem (G-d) gave all humans that make us in His image. So that being said, all humans who use reason have the ability to work past the false ideals of racism. For some people it is a pretty quick thing to do. All they have to do is walk outside and talk to their friends and their neighbors and they can know that racism is unreasonable. Some people need a little more than that, some people need to travel a bit further. According to traditional Judaism Hashem provided a way for all humans to be able to use their reason to work through incorrect ideologies, all we have to do is choose. As Jews were given a different mission, but at some in future history all points come back together AGAIN as one. I.e. the Jewish concept is that at some TRUTH reveals itself to all humanity in a way that all humans can see it for what it is easily choose it or reject it.
People learn all kinds of things, but that doesn’t mean that it has a reasonable source. For example, as I mentioned before there are a number of things that people pass off as ancient and Jewish, and it is not. That is like someone claiming that baggles and lox are an ancient Jewish food. That can easily be proven wrong with the right kind of investigation. That is a food product that evolved out of some element of European/American Jewish culture. I.e. it is recent. It only takes a little bit of reason to investigate, and in the Tanakh there are many sources that encourage all humanity to investigate and question.
Everything I just mentioned comes from Jewish musar. Yet, it something that can be found in a number of human cultures, because it has reason behind it. For example, most non-Jews would 100% agree with most of the Noachide Laws i.e. the Laws in the Torah that are considered to apply to non-Jews. For example, most rationale people would consider stealing wrong. According to Judaism that is because humans are rationale, it is a matter if they use their reason or not. The word didn’t need Jews or the Torah to figure that out, it was already in the programming so to speak.
Racism is the same way. Most humans who use reason, would not end up racist. Yet, the minute they turn off their reason they can come up with all kind of wild and crazy ideas about a concept that is known to not be real. This goes back to people rejecting conventional wisdom, and for Jews the Torah is the wisdom that received. So, as I pointed out before. If the Torah was what our culture received, and a Jew decides to ignore the parts that implore them to use their Hashem given reason when it comes to race well the affects can be.
1) He/she rejects that the Torah teaches that all of humanity has a blessing from Hashem.
2) Jews and non-Jews are built from the same stuff, the difference is in our responsibilities. Torah for Jews – Commandments of Noach for non-Jews.
3) There are a number of culture that converted to Judaism and became Jews. They didn’t have to, they already had a blessing from Hashem. Yet, if they were able to convert their race does not imbue something with it just because.
4) Solomon married women from various cultures, including a number of women from Africa, and had children from them. Joseph married an Egyptian women and had children by her. Shimon married a Canaanite woman. Boaz married Ruth a Moabite. In Yemen, North Africa, and Khazar whole tribes converted to Judaism. A bit hard to be a reasonable racist when ancient Israelites and Jews were legally (per Jewish law) marrying people from other cultures.
See what I mean a Jew has to reject a LOT of Jewish reasoning to try and become a racist. Which goes back to my point. They have to accept some Avodah Zara to do it, or else they can’t explain the above and many more things. There are religious and non-religious Jews alike who accept Avodah Zara. The difference is that a religious can be reasoned with based a common Torah standard. He can be reasoned with using Rambam, etc. A semi-religious Jew can also be reasoned in the same way, more than likely using history more than religion. A Jew who rejects it all, can say and do anything and never be brought back to the table of reason. He/she doesn’t have to accept it, especially if he/she wants to be white so bad and has accepted the Avodah Zara of the racists. If they have accepted the Avodah Zara of racists they are lost.
Evan Wrote:
Racism is not innate in anyone, but we all pick up some little bits of it. It's not the way of the pagans, it's the way of the world.
Ehav's Response
I actually agree with you. I don't think racism is innate. I believe that there are people who create something, they get the ball rolling with some momentum, and then they spread it like a disease. Racism, to me, come from another source. I.e. people who choose to not exercise reason. When I was a kid I got to see the world, so it was hard for me to believe that race is a realistic thing. I believe more in culture, language, and location. Do I have prejudices, yes. But, they stem from things that were passed down to me from situation or another, one experience or another. I wasn't born with them. I picked them up along the way and I work, using my reason to deal with them and see them for what they are. Useless Avodah Zara that I picked up from unreasonable sources.
For example, racism towards African Americans was created for a reason. It was set in motion and the ball has been rolling for a long time. It is the way of the pagans, IF we use the classical Jewish definition of what a pagan is. A person who has accepted unreasonable, untruthful, illogical, ideals, and concepts. Pagan is simply an English word I emply to fellow Jews to push the point in way they would understand. Some Jews don't know what Avodah Zara is because have never studied how it is defined.
A person who has accepted unreasonable, untruthful, illogical, ideals, and concepts
Sounds allot like religion to me. Racism like religion is not rooted in science or any kind of intellectual proof but people believe anyway. It's passed down from generation to generation and people believe because their parents or community believe.
Did you see Jesse is back on the "Jews control everything" band wagon?
http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/jackson-zionists-will-lose-influence-under-obama/
C1 Wrote:
Sounds allot like religion to me. Racism like religion is not rooted in science or any kind of intellectual proof but people believe anyway. It's passed down from generation to generation and people believe because their parents or community believe.
Ehav's Response
I agree and disagree with you. That depends on HOW one defines religion. Religion can be anything based on what people make it out to be. It is man made hows on the road to seeking truth with a capital T. Science can be a religion, if someone chooses it to be so. For example, if people decided to worship the Big Bang since it started the evolutionary process that caused the Universe to exist, and if their holy book were books on Physics, Relativity, and String theory then they could consider themselves a religion of those particular elements of science.
There are religions out there that root themselves 100% in science. Rabbi Mosheh ben Maimon (Rambam) was one of those types. Science also can have subjective elements that future generations prove incorrect, or clarify based on having better technology or methods to understand the reality that humanity lives in. Especially, when one gets into defining how one measures an event. Measurements can easily be subjective. Kind of like the debate about whether 2+2 really equals 4. There is a formally when applied a certain way that supposibly makes it possible for 2+2 to not equal 4.
The theory behind the above is in measurement in science, the number of significant digits is usually encoded in the way a number is written. That is, under certain conditions, "2" has only one significant digit, which means it represents a measurement with a margin of error of 1, which means the actual value may lie between 1.0... and 3.0. When adding such measurements together, the margins of error are also added in quadrature, so (2±1) + (2±1) = 4 ± (1.0^2 + 1.0^2)^1/2 = 4 ± 1. And since "5" actually means 5 ± 1, these margins clearly overlap and one could jokingly argue that the numbers are the same. A popular phrasing of this statement is "2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2 or small values of 5". When adding more precise measurements, for example 2.0 + 2.0, the margin of error is smaller and the maximum number that could be "reached" would in this case be 4.1.
Back to my previous point. Also, it depends on whether not said science is universally accepted. Some elements of science are understand from one or two perspectives. There may be other perspectives out there that give it a more complete view, or prove it wrong. There are a number of things in science that are also unprovable concepts. That is based on the limitation of the current scientific method.
Where I see a difference between racism and religion is that there are religions out there that encourage self exploration, rather than simply accepting something that was passed down. There are some that like racism discourage self investigation, but is only a subset of what could be called "religion."
Yet, because religions are man-made attempts at truth, whether correct or false, time proves them incorrect and invalid if they do not really represent truth. People who actually seek truth, irregardless of where it leads them, don't have to keep a constant.
Yet, in order for racists views to hold ignorance MUST ALWAYS be a constant. For example, it is hard to maintain that a group of people are monkeys when you line up a monkey and said human and analysis both of them seeking a REAL conclusion if they are the same or not. By like token it is hard to say that an entire race smells like dogs when they get wet when you compare the smell of a wet dog and the smell of people from said race when they are wet. Maybe it is possible for a KKK person for example, prior to seeing an African American to have read books that claim that AA were derived from monkeys. Maybe, if he saw movies like Birth of a Nation, he could hold such a theory. Yet, when he actually sees an African American who doesn't look anything like a monkey. When he sees evidence that all human DNA is basically the same with MINOR differences. When he has a one on one conversation with an African American, at some unless he is a blithering idiot or brain dead. When he sees that monkeys have only a 2% genetic difference with ALL humans, at some point his racist views either fold on themselves, or he has to isolate himself intellectually and logically.
The same goes for the other situation I stated in terms of the supposed wet dog theory. The same can be true for keeping people from QUESTIONING a religion. YET, because religion can be anything people, who have freedom of movement can search it out. Racist are not encouraged to reason at all, when it comes to the areas of their racism. If they were, they would have a hard time maintaining their racism because it falls short when you meet a large majority of people who don't fit into the confines of a particular type of racism.
I once had a person tell me that white people smell like dogs when they get wet. That worked when I never was around a wet white person. As soon as I searched out and encountered wet white people and they didn't smell like dogs that whole theory had to go out the window.
So in order to maintain racism, one must have some form of ISOLATION. Whether physical, intellectual, or psychological. A religion can be ANYTHING so it can line up 100% with current accepted science and reason. Depending on what the particulars of said religion are.
C1 Wrote:
Did you see Jesse is back on the "Jews control everything" band wagon?
Ehav Writes
I guess he has to do something to try and stay relevant. I personally hope he is right, about policy changes concerning the US's connection here in Israel. I wrote a post on my blog a while back on how I believe that to many of our policies here in Israel are tied up in American interests here in the Middle East and that is hurting our country and the Middle East. A long and complex story.
Did you see Jesse is back on the "Jews control everything" band wagon?
He completely lost me after his "Hymie Town" comment. Anything he says about Jews after making a comment like that, I really find difficult to take seriously. I found it just as offensive as the "N" word.He certainly would be protesting if a Jew called him that, but apparently it's ok for him to use the word. He is such a hypocrite and his credibility is nearly non-existent right now.
Sounds allot like religion to me. Racism like religion is not rooted in science or any kind of intellectual proof but people believe anyway. It's passed down from generation to generation and people believe because their parents or community believe.
I gotta post coming on religion soon. I hope I don't scare off people.
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Did you see Jesse is back on the "Jews control everything" band wagon? http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/jackson-zionists-will-lose-influence-under-obama/
Jesse Jackson needs to sit down somewhere and be quiet. We already know how he feels about Obama. That and his "Hymie Town" comment should have had him shut up about Israel a long time ago.
This guy will get a pass because of heritage and it won't be seen as racism because he is a part of a minority that is discriminated against. Its no different than the homosexual guy who does his Shirley Q. Liquer impersonation. Because he is a homosexual, the fact that he is a white male who dresses in black face and does a routine as a welfare queen is null. Oh well, people like these come a dime a dozen.
Okay, my last two cents before I scamper away.
Ehav: I guess my problem with what you seem to be writing (and I apologize if I'm mistaken) is that you get to say who is a Jew. To put it differently (and turn one of the more asinine questions of this election slightly) who is Jewish enough?
Do I have to be Orthodox? Haredi? What about Reform or Liberal? What if I don't keep kosher, or work on the sabbath? What about something smaller, like not practicing the Kapparos ritual?
I know you write that you're taking your cues from the Torah, but given the debate between rabbis and the world in general on this subject, I don't think it's nearly as cut and dried as you want it to be.
Classical One:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
Science has been used, like religion to justify racism since the very beginning, even unto the present day.
Now, because I'm fleeing, I'm going to answer what I think will be your counter-argument: that it's not real science, that they aren't following the principles/ideals of science, that the people who do this aren't real scientists. Which is exactly what I argue Ehav's doing, only with religion.
Ehav and Classical: It is possible to be genuinely religious (including Jewish) and racist. It is possible to be a genuine scientist and racist.
*Scampers back to his blog to avoid the fireworks*
Evan Wrote:
Ehav: I guess my problem with what you seem to be writing (and I apologize if I'm mistaken) is that you get to say who is a Jew. To put it differently (and turn one of the more asinine questions of this election slightly) who is Jewish enough?
Ehav's Response
Greetings Evan. No need to run off, I don't get offended by VERY valid questions. You can ask both Grata and Siddity, I have no problem rationally discussing issues. I also have no intention of offending anyone also.
Actually, it is not whether "I" define what being Jewish is. I am sorry if it sounds like "I" am defining it. These are definitions that existed long before I was born. Lets just start from this point, somewhere there is a definition of what a Jew is and what a Jew is not. If there is no such definition than the whole world could be Jewish. Maybe the whole world is Jewish and they just don't know it, but because of the world doesn't define itself as Jewish, that means that somewhere there is a definition. The question then becomes where did ANY of the definitions come from? Just as you say your grandfather was Jewish, but you say that based on SOMETHING that made him Jewish, right? Otherwise how could you say he was a Jew?
For example, the Reform movement has a definition of who is a Jew. Yet, they didn't just pull it out of the sky. They based it on things they found in ancient Jewish texts. The same goes for the Orthodox, Reconstructionist, Conservative, etc. For example, there are those who say that ANYONE, whether they have the ancestry or not, who decides one day they are Jewish is Jewish. There are a lot people who would gasp at such a thing. How can someone just one day decide they are Jewish? This concept comes from two sources. One is a source in the Talmud that talks about a non-Jew who converted himself to Judaism without any witnesses. He just simply stood up one day said, "I'm a Jew" and began living like a Jew. It is said that his conversation was valid. In the book of Esther, near the end, it mentions that after the Jews won the wars to defend themselves that a number of non-Jews saw it and "made themselves Jewish." Not that they converted, not that they went and lived with the Jews and learned from them. The Hebrew word used isמתיהדים a self causative word meaning they made themselves into Jews without anyone converting them.
Evan Wrote
Do I have to be Orthodox? Haredi? What about Reform or Liberal? What if I don't keep kosher, or work on the sabbath? What about something smaller, like not practicing the Kapparos ritual?
Ehav's Response
In terms of Orthodox, Haredi, Reform, or Liberal. No such words exist in any ancient Jewish text nothing in the Torah, Talmud, Midrashim, etc. use such words so there is no requirement to go by any of them. Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews didn't originally use such terms. Those are simple modern terms that come out of the battle in Europe over the Enlightenment. So those titles are meaningless in defining who is a Jew. There are Jews who fall into all of them.
For example, in the Talmud it states that even if a Jew chooses is is forced not to live as a Jew, legally he/she is still a Jew. They are simply not living as a Jew. By like token if a Jew, or their progeny were to return to the table it is said that they must immediately be accepted as they are and brought back under the wings of the Jewish community.
In terms of Kosher, Sabbath. There is nothing in Jewish writ that rejects someone as a Jew who don't keep these. They are simply a Jew who doesn't keep the Kosher and the Sabbath. In terms of Kapparos, there are a LOT of Jews who don't do that. There is no tradition in the Middle East and Africa to do such things. I definitely don't do it. There is no requirement to do, and there are those who say that it is not something that should be done to begin with. A Jew swinging a chicken over their head is a Jew swinging a chicken over their head. A Jew who doesn't is simply a Jew. The definitions I am using on this are all of the foundation definitions that established all Jewish sects, i.e. that is what Jewish sources say.
Evan Wrote:
I know you write that you're taking your cues from the Torah, but given the debate between rabbis and the world in general on this subject, I don't think it's nearly as cut and dried as you want it to be.
Ehav Wrote:
Which debates between rabbis and the world in general? On the who is a Jew issue, racism, etc? I believe I am not making it cut and dry. As I said the whole concept is that coming to a correct and logical conclusion on something can take a lifetime for individuals. Some people use their reason to reach, and some don't. I think that is a part of the major problem. Just because I use try my best to use reason doesn't mean my cousin will. His actions, not using reason can affect me simply because he is my cousin. My actions in terms of trying to use reason, could affect him simply because we are related.
Evan Wrote:
Ehav and Classical: It is possible to be genuinely religious (including Jewish) and racist. It is possible to be a genuine scientist and racist.
Ehav Wrote:
I would say that it depends on what the religion says. If there is a religion out there that promotes racism as a valid method of reason then yes. The same goes for science. If there is a scientific method that promotes and accepts racism as a scientific method then yes it is.
I still believe that most people are rational, so I believe that most people would reject such a religion and such a science. But that is me.
The main difference between religion and Science is religion is completely faith based. Science (not pseudo science) requires observation and experimentation with a hypothesis that can be tested.
Hey C1,
I still thing it depends on HOW one defines religion. Religion can be ANYTHING people create it to be including things that are considered proven fact. It depends on what people call religion. That word is pretty wide open. It also depends on what people define as "religious" actions.
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