2008-10-19
Black Republicans
That clip, no matter how unfair it seems, is my view of MOST black republicans. I have respect for some. I've always had the utmost respect for Colin Powell. I was excited to find out he actually backed Barack Obama in this election and it shows me that he isn't the typical stereotype I have of black republicans. I think black republicans let their white friends tell racist jokes to them, the people who feel special when white people tell them "they're not like the others", they are the people who say "I don't date black men/women because .......", and they are the folks who want to distance themselves from anything black as much as possible. They are the people I envision who believe weave, perm, and color contacts are the only true way to be beautiful, and for a woman to not do so is shameful.
I also to a certain extent have much respect for Condoleezza Rice, because I know she isn't the stereotype either. She served as a foreign policy advisor to Gary Hart, even though she had switched parties. I know her father became a Republican after being refused the right to vote by a Democratic Register in Jim Crow Alabama. I don't agree with her views of Affirmative Action, but I respect her position and find her to be the one ounce of intelligence in the current administration.
I am going to take my issue with black republicans point by point, so people don't assume I just dislike or stereotype folks just for the sake of it.
The argument of the black republicans is typically that the democrats are who kept black people in slavery and Jim Crow and that the Republican party was founded by abolitionists. This is true, but when it came time to end Jim Crow many of those Democrats of yesteryear, the dixiecrats switched to the Republican party who was in favor of state rights, and who felt that segregation was a state rights issue, not a federal issue. If we waited for certain states to come around on the concept of Jim Crow, we would be still utilizing Jim Crow, in fact Jim Crow is implemented in not a so overt manner in many neighborhoods, social organizations, and schools. The republicans of today are not the republicans of yesteryear, same could be said of the democrats. Blacks pretty much until Roosevelt's New Deal voted republican.
Many black republicans tend to believe that education and professional excellence is all it takes to get ahead in society. In white society yes, but they tend to forget the racial inequalities, and just because some make it, doesn't mean all will make it. Not to mention, I think most rational blacks believe in advancing their education and getting a job, but in some cases the resources aren't in place and the knowledge isn't there on how to do such things. My mother didn't know about how to get in and pay for college, her parents didn't either. She had to go to her aunt, who had been to college to learn. What if no one in your family had ever been to college and what if you parents wouldn't or couldn't help you on how to figure it all out? If you are going to an inner city school where the turnover of teachers is on a regular basis and you don't have a computer lab, or guidance counselor who actually cares about their job, and you have parents who can't help you, what are you options in knowing and learning how to advance? This is really a class issue versus race issue, but honestly I can't deny white privilege, call me racist if you want.
I think many black republicans are under the belief that the black community treats criminals like victims. I don't think the "liberal" black community does, but what they do is note and point out the difference in how black criminals are treated versus white criminals, and if race is truly not an issue, why do we not look at the discrepancies and remedy them? Why is it wrong to get upset because Tyrone gets two years of jail time for the same crime Brad committed, and Brad only got community service, and they both had the same judge. In Paris, TX we had Shaquanda Cotton as a prime example of this. Seven years in prison for pushing a hall monitor with no prior record vs. a girl getting probation for burning down her family's house to me says that there is an issue with how our justice system is carried out. Don't get me started on Dallas County's false conviction rate.
Black republicans are under the impression that black americans aren't patriotic. I think black americans are some of the most patriotic people there are. We have fought in every war of this country since it's beginnings, and some fought knowing they would return to a country that didn't treat them as a whole citizen. So I don't get how blacks aren't perceived as patriotic unless they go republican.
They believe in independence and self help. Who doesn't but really who doesn't need help at one time, and aren't we are glad that there are safety nets in the country for those hard economic times to protect people. I don't think most black people believe in sitting on their butts and getting a check every month. Even Rush Limbaugh has been on public assistance, even though he is vehemently against it. Of course I have issues with anyone black who would align with that man. Of course I don't understand how you can align yourselves with people who think like this either:
They want free enterprise, but let's get real, if you open up a business in a crime infested, poverty stricken neighborhood, how are you going to generate money, and how will you get people from outside the neighborhood to frequent it if it has a bad reputation, and let's say you do end up with a bunch of successful businesses in the neighborhood, and you start to build it up. You know have to deal with gentrification, and how and what do we do with those who can no longer afford the neighborhoods and taxes on the up and coming neighborhoods. We didn't fix poverty and crime, you just swept it under the rug and moved those people elsewhere.
I do agree with republicans on one thing. The welfare system did eliminate the role of the black father in the black community, but I won't deny that welfare is needed, not as a lifetime option, but a temporary option. Job assistance, and education is key to getting off of welfare, and if we continue to cut these programs, like this current administration has done, you will do nothing to end welfare.
Now I will go on to the most favorite topic. Affirmative Action, many black republicans are against it. I say it is needed, and what irks me even more is the amount of black republicans who are probably recipients of such programs are now so opposed. The perception of black people in America is that we are crime prone, less intelligent, and unable to be in positions of authority in corporate America. That is just the cold hard truth, and if you do manage to disprove folks wrong, you are the exception and not the rule. I think many black people who are republicans get this treatment and believe, they want to prove how different they are and they want to believe that the others didn't get ahead because they all sat on their tails waiting for a welfare check. I am going to tell folks a secret, MOST BLACK PEOPLE AREN'T ON WELFARE, and if we look at sheer numbers the biggest recipient of welfare benefits are white women. My husband after his parents divorce was on welfare for a short time. His mother brags that when they were on welfare they ate better than any other time in their lives. Steaks, lobster, and everything else was common when the welfare check came. My grandmother was a divorcee who raised three boys, and never once was on welfare, she instead worked three jobs at a time. If people were to put both women side by side, who would they most likely assume to be on welfare? Affirmative Action is needed and the proof is in the unemployment rates and the income discrepancies between races in this country.
Now this goes along the lines of my last non entertainment post. I disagree with conservatives that the principles of this country were founded on religion. I always don't think this nation should be a Christian nation, it should be based upon religious freedom, which is what I think this country was founded on. Not all the founding fathers were Christian, some were deists. I found it crazy that it is socially acceptable to assume most muslims supported 9/11 or Al Queda, that Jews are going to hell, and that children, regardless of religion should be forced to pray in school. As I say this, I do think the majority of black Christians tend to be very conservative because the black church is somewhat conservative in terms of social issues such as abortion, sex before marriage, and homosexuality.
Overall I think the that black republicans don't get it, and if they do "get it" they tend to turn their backs on others, and like the idea of being the exception, not the rule. They want to believe the media portrayal of black people, it makes their star shine brighter.
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37 comments:
I tend to think that foreign born blacks are most likely to become Republicans. And that may explain alot about Collin Powell and Condy.
When I first came and didn't understand US history and race relations, I was more inclined to Republican values. You will find that many African Cultures will actually be closer to Repiblican values than Democratic.
Where I am from cultures are largely conservative and there is a strong encouragement for self reliance. Your welfare is your immediate community. The State in no way ever helps in your day to day life. I grew up with no free education. You only got if if you made to the only University in the country that could only take about 4000 students from a pool of hundreds of thousands. So when an African like myself makes their way here, they can't understand why there are people not utilizing the free education and taking the odd jobs until they make it through school. I was bagging groceries about 5 years ago. With a little education since then, I have a well paying job (atleast for now).
But I now know that it is very simplistic to apply those values or use that standard to analyze the African American situation.
So Rice and Powell probably come from backgrounds that relate more to Republican values than Democratic values and their political affiliation doesn't surprise me.
As for AAs that are republicans, I have always suspected that these are people that have a deep seated hatred for being on the "weak" or losing side. There are people that have an intense hatred for weakness and in many ways Democrats are seen as weak. To be democratic to them is to accept the position of a victim (being black) and they loathe that more than anything. They want to associate with those that they see as strong and have no tolerance for weakness.
That is why they hate Affirmative Action programs because they are a crutch for those in a weak position.
I personally, I am for affirmative action but don't want to be a beneficiary, though I may not be able to help that given the system we are in.
One argument against it is that is sups drive, and this may be true for some. Personally I get a kick out of being underestimated and it drives me to outperform myself and others. If I get a break then I can't fulfill my own potential. But that is just me. There are others who are not fighters but are very talented. They don't need unnecessary obstacles in the way (Especially at a young age). What affirmative action does is remove those obstacles so they can too meet their potential.
Manytimes I have worked with a white severely disabled worker (some even mentally) and I can't help wonder if a black person with the same disability would be able to land that position.
Affirmative action merely wants to get able bodied blacks into the mainstream, I doubt it will ever go far enough to get severely disabled into the same positions their white counterparts are able to get.
On there other hand, there are some blacks that will be much better off without it.
This post is actually about six posts.
As you state, most Blacks are conservative (they're just not usually Republican). Wasn't M.L.K. a Republican? I know, you explain that it was a different party back then.
Grata,
I believe Condy is an American born black, her family has strong roots here in America.
Race relations here does skew perception. If I were raised elsewhere, I might not be so jaded.
In terms of disabled workers, I think that is one group that is severely discriminated against. The treatment and views of disability are slow to change here in America. People don't necessarily hire on skills, but rather personality. My brother will have a hard time finding a job with his autism, because it is assumed he has a low IQ, and people aren't aware of the autism spectrum, and that some very intelligent people are considered autistic.
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This post is actually about six posts.
As you state, most Blacks are conservative (they're just not usually Republican). Wasn't M.L.K. a Republican? I know, you explain that it was a different party back then.
M.L.K. was a republican, and I just noticed how incredibly long this post was. I just figured I would touch on a few points, but I do need to work on my stereotypes of black republicans.
I would say that many blacks I've met are as socially conservative as white Republicans but they vote Democrat due to the Democratic Party's heritage since the Great Society. If it wasn't for the race angle many of these folks would be on the same side.
I would say that many blacks I've met are as socially conservative as white Republicans but they vote Democrat due to the Democratic Party's heritage since the Great Society. If it wasn't for the race angle many of these folks would be on the same side.
I would say many in my family are like this. I once had an aunt ask "why do people come to this country, and then want to keep their old religion?" Uuuhhhmmm hello!!! Religious freedom. Then once someone pointed this out to her, she said, "I guess"
Umm..not. I'm a black republican, have very few white friends and would never even let my black friends crack racist jokes. My few white friends would never even dream of coming out of their mouth with foolishness.
Please stop generalizing black republicans.
Sandy,
I just said in the beginning of the post I was generalizing and stereotyping. Please tell me why I can't post my opinion on the topic. I was inspired to do this post, by watching this video, where a black republican was hoping for the "Bradley effect" to take place in the polls. Why would someone hope for people to be more racist?
Condelezza's family is from the deep south- Alabama. They went Republican b/c the Dixiecrats wouldn't let her father register with their party.
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Grata,
I agree with some of what you said. Certainly I have noticed that among some Black Republicans- that raging desire to distance themselves from "the losing team", aka blacks. I am not even going to get started on Aff Action and how Uncle (Clarence)Thomas wouldn't be where he is today without it but now that he's got his, it needs to be done away with it.
I'm sorry, but I have not seen much, I have not seen anything that counters my experience of black republicans as typically being ashamed of blackness and overly eager to prove how "unblack", and therefore superior, they are. And what's more "unblack" than being a Republican?
What is your opinion on the 1960's era Moynihan report which talked about the future collapse of the black family structure? Republicans have pointed to the liberal policies of that era as having led to the destruction of the black family unit, what say you?
I agree with the report. The black family has crumbled. Look at the current marriage rates of both black men and black women, they are dismally low. The welfare system, like any other government system is flawed. It penalized poor families when there were two adults in the home. A working man living with a working woman with multiple children, equalled less benefits, and even if both were working, they were unable to make ends meet. This made it become logical to those who were living in the vicious cycle of poverty and welfare to encourage single family homes.
I will say this, we need a welfare system, we need a safety net, especially for economic times we are about to face, so I don't think the system needs to be abolished, it needs to be overhauled. Instead of cutting work and educations programs, they should be expanded, not penalize two parent homes for those who can't make ends meet. We need to encourage sex education outside of abstinence only programs because teenagers have sex, and teenage moms often more times than not living in poverty and having to utilize welfare or other government programs to help them and their children survive.
I'm sorry, but I have not seen much, I have not seen anything that counters my experience of black republicans as typically being ashamed of blackness and overly eager to prove how "unblack", and therefore superior, they are. And what's more "unblack" than being a Republican?
I know it is a generalization, but I feel the same way, it just rubs me the wrong way how people can think of Pat Buchanan and think was an amazing american he is. How they could share the political ideals of Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond. I just can't shake that out of my mind.
I know it is a generalization, but I feel the same way, it just rubs me the wrong way how people can think of Pat Buchanan and think was an amazing american he is. How they could share the political ideals of Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond. I just can't shake that out of my mind.
In all fairness to the Black Republicans, there are plenty of liberal whites who think blacks are less than as well but they never say it do to political correctness. In fact I've heard such people say that we really need to help blacks because they can't do for themselves and their "culture" needs a boost in order to compete with other groups. Those opinions aren't too much different from the people at the Palin rallies
In all fairness to the Black Republicans, there are plenty of liberal whites who think blacks are less than as well but they never say it do to political correctness. In fact I've heard such people say that we really need to help blacks because they can't do for themselves and their "culture" needs a boost in order to compete with other groups. Those opinions aren't too much different from the people at the Palin rallies
Very true, I have seen the lifelong democrats decide they want to be republican because they cannot bring themselves to vote for a black man. I do think it bothers me at how outward the racism in the republican party is, and how many don't deem what they say as racist, but rather the truth. It shows to me a lack of common sense.At least most racist democrats know how to hide the stupidity.
Where to start??? Its like when a reporter asks five questions and then looks at the interviewee crazy when they stammer a bit, trying to decide how to cover all that...
One can be Republican or Democrat based on principle or on pragmatism.
Many Republican principles are not inherently anti-black, even if the real world implementation has an anti-black result. State's Rights and freedom of association are not bad, but when wielded by racists have racist results.
The inverse is true as well. Govt. helping those in need can be a good thing. Needy people having thier family structure and dignity eroded is not. Becoming a ward of the state is not good, and not the intent of the welfare system... but it does happen.
I have seen Republican campaigns go overtly racist (Sonny Perdue)and I have seen black democrats strong arm un qualified chronies into positions in the name of racial equality. Both instances may be anecdotal but they illustrate that both sides of the political and racial isles are not ALL crazy and completely off base.
Niether party is all bad or all good when it comes to the concerns of black people.
Abortion is a big issue that transcends race no matter your view on it's legality or morality.
What I would say is inherently unfair and out of bounds is to stake a black person's identity or "blackness" upon thier political affiliation or views.
Condie and Colin are and always have been black. One can rail against position in the house or the filed, call them whatever you want, but thier affiliation does not change the role of race in this country or thier lives.
Carlton is as black as Will whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
I'm not a Black Republican or even a Democrat. I never registered with any political party.
I don't think I have met a Black Republican ever, but I'm not sure they are all like this. However, I do wear a weave and I must say I wear one because my hair is so thick (and long) and hard to deal with, it's just easier for me. I have been made fun of by mostly black people because of my hair, my lighter skin, and the fact that I use correct grammar. I also don't date Black men because I am not that attracted to them. Grew up in a mostly white neighborhood and that's pretty much all I'm exposed to. I'm not saying they're bad, but I'm just not attracted to them I guess. I just didn't like that you made that generalization of Black Republicans or rather any black people for that matter. I respect your opinion on it though and kudos to you for posting it. As far as politics go, I go with what my gut tells me. A lot of people would probably assume that I vote Republican because I grew up middle class, had access to good schools, etc, but I don't. I'm going to assume that Colin Powell and Condoleeza (sp?) Rice probably grew up more with the values of the Republican party and that's why they are Republicans. Whatever they are, it is their decision to choose what they are. If anything, that is one of the great things about this country (and I don't have a lot of great things to speak about at the moment with what's going on). You're able to vote based on what you believe (or at least I hope that's what people are doing) is right.
What I would say is inherently unfair and out of bounds is to stake a black person's identity or "blackness" upon thier political affiliation or views.
It is very much unfair, but I can't help that is how I feel. I have met many black republicans, I grew up in a predominantly white and republican area, and that is how I formed my opinions. I do want to emphasize my point that these were generalizations. I didn't pass them off as fact.
Condie and Colin are and always have been black. One can rail against position in the house or the filed, call them whatever you want, but thier affiliation does not change the role of race in this country or thier lives.
Which is why I felt the need to point out I think Condi and Colin are great people worthy of respect. They are black Condi's family was very involved in the Civil Rights movement. I don't agree with her 100% of the time, but I don't think of her as a "sell out"
Carlton is as black as Will whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
Very true
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I don't think I have met a Black Republican ever, but I'm not sure they are all like this. However, I do wear a weave and I must say I wear one because my hair is so thick (and long) and hard to deal with, it's just easier for me
I have long, extremely thick (can break combs) natural hair and it isn't all that hard to deal with, but that is just me. I have never worn weave, but I have had relaxers, and I find being natural is a lot easier to deal with than relaxers, even with long hair.
I have been made fun of by black people the majority of my life due to the way I talked and where I lived. I can't say I am not attracted to all black men, but I am primarily am attracted to white men. I can't ever say never in regards of who I would date if I were single because tastes and preferences change, and I would hate to limit myself. I grew up in predominantly white neighborhoods all of my life, and continue to live in predominantly white area that is very republican. The majority of places I have lived were overwhelmingly republican, I generalize based upon these experiences. I am not saying it is right, it is just my opinion. The few black republicans I do know seem to have this mindset, they quote Rush Limbaugh, they think Pat Buchanan has been misquoted time and time again, and I just don't understand the rationale.
In terms of the values of the republican party, what exactly are they, I thought that were the points I touched upon in my post. If I was wrong, please let me know.
This election will be decided on perceptions. Most people don't really know why they're voting for one candidate or another other than race or party affiliation. Your views are your own and still valid (although limited to just your experience).
As far as being teased - not so much. I was good in a lot of stuff and (in spite of my screen name) I got a lot of girls.
Since moving to Beaumont, black people have tried to clown me but Ne-ga-ro please... .
Is it possible that this discussion could be facilitated in a clarification of sorts? I think the difference between "real" Republicans and the Neo Cons pretending to be Republicans needs to be addressed.
Republicanism, in the most basic sense, is about liberty, rule of law, popular sovereignty, civic virtue (citizens taking part in government and opposing corruption), and opposition to tyrrany. People have certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away, be it through force or vote. William F. Buckley had the good sense to want to separate the conservatives from the kooks, as it were, and even he could understand and/or support the opposing side when it made sense.
Neo-conservatives, on the other hand, are further right than the Republicans. They moved to their current position during the Vietnam War, a reaction to what they saw as anti-Americanism on the part of liberals who opposed our involvement in the conflict, and rejected any positives that liberalism had. In particular, they eschewed attempts to solve problems in education, health care, and employment and government-based intervention in certain arenas (like business). Religion became the instrument through which morality is promoted. This helped make some individuals *coughJerryFallwellcoughPatBuchanancough* that were otherwise relegated to the fringes of society more "mainstream." After being pandered to by Nixon and Reagan, these people are not going anywhere--you cannot be a serious contender for the Republican presidential nomination without kissing their asses--and they far outnumber the Republicans in the Republican party. The genuinely believe they are the arbiters of righteousness and patriotism.
Based on this, I could see how people of color could be Republicans. I could be a Republican, but I refuse to until that party gets out of bed with the "Religious Right" and mindless attack dogs like Coulter, Limbaugh, and Hannity.
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I wonder at times how much support the Republican party, as it stands now, gets from minorities is gamesmanship. The Republicans get to claim they got this diversity without Affirmative Action style preferences and without really having to invest in courting large numbers of non-white people. People like Ms. Rice and Mr. Thomas benefit from a certain elevated status because they managed to survive in the Republican party and were successful. Having more people like them in the party would diminish them somewhat (IE they wouldn't be the exception to the rule any longer) and put their positions in jeopardy. In that sense, it's not in their best interest to support anyone else that looks like them. The cost of maintaining this support seems to be remaining silent when certain hot button issues (like sexism and racism) arise and losing one's autonomy to a degree.
Look at how they've turned on Colin Powell after he endorsed Obama. It couldn't possibly be that, because he was on the inside of Bush's inner circle that he has legitimate fears about what the continuation of his policies could bring, and outlined them accordingly. No. He's black and he's voting for the black guy as a show of racial solidarity and clannishness. They're tearing apart his military record and calling him an Affirmative Action hire.
Carlton is as black as Will whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
Someone please tell the Carltons of the world this. I am not denying anyone's blackness here and certainly do not consider Colin Powell to be the sort of black Republican I have experienced. He's never been a sycophant who fastidiously towed the party line. Nor did I imply that Democrats where free of racism. And I'll leave it for others to divorce long-established Republican ideals and policies from the context of whom they targeted and why. But it's plain to me that some black people are drawn to the GOP out of a desire to reject their blackness and all that which, to them, it stands for. Does this mean that all self-hating black people vote Republican or that all black Republicans are self-hating? Nope.
oh gee, that was a were not a where in that last comment.
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Digitalcoyote,
Good point about the neo-cons. But the NC have been running the Republican show for so long is there even any real difference? I think the "real Repubs" will have to get their own party at this point.
@ Yan, re: repubs and a new party
I've a sneaking suspicion that more than a fair number of self-described independents are the people you're talking about.
As for the ones that stay in the party, I wonder if one of two things is happening:
It could be "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. They've been drinking the Neo-Con flavored drink mix so long that it's almost more tolerable for them to stay with them than risk a repeat of the '60s.
They might also think that there's still a possibility they can right that ship. It's admirable that they may be trying to change from within, but they are severely outnumbered.
This election will be decided on perceptions. Most people don't really know why they're voting for one candidate or another other than race or party affiliation. Your views are your own and still valid (although limited to just your experience).
Most definitely these are my observations and in no way fact. I didn't have much interaction with black people when I lived in Beaumont (if that tells you how white of the schools and neighborhood I lived in), but I lived there as a child, I didn't start having people make fun of me until I lived in the Waco area, and then it became worse in the other cities I lived in growing up. I was kind of scared of black people outside of my family until college because of it.
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Is it possible that this discussion could be facilitated in a clarification of sorts? I think the difference between "real" Republicans and the Neo Cons pretending to be Republicans needs to be addressed.
Thanks for the clarification. I think I lump the two together because the neo conservatives are very vocal and maybe that overshadows true republican ideals?
OK, again William F. Buckley was a staunch opponent of integration, he isn't going to win me over to the Republican side.
In terms of Coulter, Hannity, and Limbaugh isn't that who the right likes to emerge as their leaders and spokespeople. The amount of Dittoheads is astonishing.
I think more black people would be conservatives if Affirmative Action wasn't so vehemently opposed by the republican party, that and the constant denial of white privilege, I think many in the black church can side and empathize with the religious right in terms of their views.
Look at how they've turned on Colin Powell after he endorsed Obama. It couldn't possibly be that, because he was on the inside of Bush's inner circle that he has legitimate fears about what the continuation of his policies could bring, and outlined them accordingly. No. He's black and he's voting for the black guy as a show of racial solidarity and clannishness. They're tearing apart his military record and calling him an Affirmative Action hire.
That is so frustrating to me. Why would Bush hire him for an AA hire, especially since he is so against it. They are upset that Powell wanted to shake things up.
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am not denying anyone's blackness here and certainly do not consider Colin Powell to be the sort of black Republican I have experienced. He's never been a sycophant who fastidiously towed the party line. Nor did I imply that Democrats where free of racism. And I'll leave it for others to divorce long-established Republican ideals and policies from the context of whom they targeted and why. But it's plain to me that some black people are drawn to the GOP out of a desire to reject their blackness and all that which, to them, it stands for. Does this mean that all self-hating black people vote Republican or that all black Republicans are self-hating? Nope.
We are on the same page. We as black people are very complex, and due to our history there are self hating black people, it isn't something made up. It is kind of like the old black people who refuse to utilize black owned businesses and services because they feel if they want things done right, they need to go to a white business. I don't know if that is a southern thing, but I know a lot of old black people who subscribe to that idea.
@Sid:
Don't get me wrong: Chomsky > Buckley any day.
I included him because, in some of his writings, he made it clear that there was a distinct danger in courting the fringe and swinging too far right with them.
We agree that he was wrong on lots of things, but I'd rather argue with Buckley and have a coherent conversation. A logical asshole is infinitely more tolerable than the alternative.
The majority of the Republican pundits floating about these days either want to beat you in to submission with their interpretation of scripture or shout over you and name-call until you give up.
Don't get me wrong: Chomsky > Buckley any day. I included him because, in some of his writings, he made it clear that there was a distinct danger in courting the fringe and swinging too far right with them. We agree that he was wrong on lots of things, but I'd rather argue with Buckley and have a coherent conversation. A logical asshole is infinitely more tolerable than the alternative. The majority of the Republican pundits floating about these days either want to beat you in to submission with their interpretation of scripture or shout over you and name-call until you give up.
My personal opinion is Buckley, like many people of note who have passed on, was romanticized, and now we are expected to think of him as this great person who was so logical. As my grandmother would say, he just talked "real pretty" and over people's heads, so they were ok with him suggesting those with HIV get tattooed so they could be easily identified to the public.
Not that I agree with Noam Chomsky on everything either.
I do agree with Chomsky on this.
re: HIV and tats
See. No one likes to talk about that kind of stuff. I learn something every day. Thanks, Sid.
re: dittoheads
Theory:
There's an emphasis on "feeling" rather than thinking (which is "elitist") and the right uses it to their advantage.
Things that are easily remembered often have an emotional under-current to them. Most people that are in the media like O'Reilly et al. are really good at coming up with emotionally charged soundbytes.
If it's easily repeatable, people that have educations will find ways to build an argument around it; those with less knowledge feel included because it speaks to their level rather than over their heads.
The people that make hearing the message most easy rise in stature and emerge as leaders because they can whip up the educated and not educated alike for a common cause?
*wonders why none of this stuff they're discussing can be the basis of her paper....damned midterms and their boring topics*
The Chomsky vid you linked is dead on.
*puts it up on facebook and myspace*
I just read that Buckley's son, Chris, endorsed Obama and got canned from The National Review over it.
My 89-year-old Aunt has been a life-long Republican because they stand for the values she believes it. She is ultra-Conservative, but I'd recently learned about how the Democrats or the "Dixiecrats" were the ones who were lynching Black people and burning crosses in front lawns of Black people trying to vote during the Jim Crow Era. Republicans are always known for being fiscally and socially conservative, but the Black church is the same way and that is where politics plays the biggest role. It did back in the day and it still does now as far as their influence goes. I know there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but they don't always adhere to this rule.
As a religious black woman republican I find it facinating how judgemental you are. I am VERY conservative. I have yet to meet a republican more conservative than I am. I love being black and I think that I am your typical black person. I am not special in any way,have no paticular talents etc. I am not the exception in abilities etc. I find that liberal blacks who are successful feel that they are so special and that's why they 'made it' and other blacks are so incapable and that's why other blacks need so much help. I went to a small private liberal arts college and almost all the blacks there were liberal. No one in my family had gone to college so I had to figure it out on my own on how to get into college etc. Many of the liberal black students came from a similar background as I did so I couldn't understand their belief that other blacks just couldn't do anything with their lives unless the governmnet did everything for them. It amazed me. They figured things out but no one else could? Anyway, as to your stereotypes, it is not the first time I've heard them. I think for myself and no one can tell me what I am to think or not to think. I get pretty tired of the 'you don't want to be black' and the you're a traitor to your race' comments. Tehy are pretty old and played out. I have decided that I will think and say what I want and be who I want to be because No matter what I do the 'Black community' won't like it. I won't go back to the days when blacks are allowed to only think and act one particular way. I won't 'know my place'. I don't let white people tell me my place and I won't let black people tell me my place either. But honestly...do you really think that black republicans allow whites to tell racist jokes? Thats crazy.
I find that liberal blacks who are successful feel that they are so special and that's why they 'made it' and other blacks are so incapable and that's why other blacks need so much help
That is a load. I don't think most "liberal" blacks have this view. I never once ever said other blacks were incapable, what I did say is due to racial inequality and class differences in this country, resources that are typically available to others aren't as easily accessible to many poor blacks. That has nothing to do with being incapable.
Many of the liberal black students came from a similar background as I did so I couldn't understand their belief that other blacks just couldn't do anything with their lives unless the governmnet did everything for them.
Why is it assumed that "liberal" blacks want to have the government do everything with them? Did you even read the post, or got mad I called out black republicans? You are the one sounding judgmental and making assumptions.
Again just because some figured it out, not all do. I grew up with white kids in an upper class suburb, I bet if the majority of those kids didn't have parents who went to college and/or had the money to send them to college, more than likely a big percentage of them wouldn't have attended college. The point of the matter is, if you family didn't go to college, they are less likely to encourage it, and if they do encourage it, many will think financially it is out of their reach and don't know what resources are available to them. I think that the governments job is to take care of the people, including blacks, whites, and everyone in between. Contrary to popular belief it isn't just black people who are poor.
I get pretty tired of the 'you don't want to be black' and the you're a traitor to your race' comments.
If you align yourself with the KKK, I might think you are a traitor, if you align yourself with the republican party, I will look at you a bit crazy, but I won't think you are a traitor just severely misguided, but again that isn't fact, just my opinion.
Tehy are pretty old and played out. I have decided that I will think and say what I want and be who I want to be because No matter what I do the 'Black community' won't like it. I won't go back to the days when blacks are allowed to only think and act one particular way. I won't 'know my place'. I don't let white people tell me my place and I won't let black people tell me my place either. But honestly...do you really think that black republicans allow whites to tell racist jokes? Thats crazy.
Yeah I know black republicans that would do that. I had an acquaintance in college who would proclaim loudly he wasn't like "these other n****" and then stayed with a white woman who in an argument called him a n******. Of the few black republicans I do know, only two don't fit into the stereotypes. This is just from my observations. I have been with my husband for nine years, but the day he calls me a n***** is the day I walk out, that isn't up for discussion. These are the people who defended Don Imus and his "nappy headed hos" comment, deflecting his stupidity by blaming hip hop, as if one wrong validated another. You don't have to be put in your place, aligning yourself with McCain and Palin, you are great with being in the back of the bus. I don't subscribe to black "group think" like you assume, but rather I just have a hard time believing the republican party has the best interests of people of color in mind, not that either does, but to me the republican party is not the lesser of two evils.
I am the religious black woman conservative.
I didn't say that liberal blacks feel that they are special I said that successful liberal blacks feel this way. The successful liberal blacks faced the same discrimination etc and yet were able to be successful. WHY? The successful blacks were special and could figure things out but the other blacks who didn't figure it out just weren't strong enough, smart enough etc. That's my experience. As far as going to college, that is not the only way to be successful in this life. In my husband's family, he is the only one that went to college. But all are to a degree successful. I call success having a good family, and good job and own your home. Some may not call that success, but that covers the basics. His brother owns his own business detailing cars (no special skill needed there). He worked in a factory for years (over 15 years) and on the side he detailed cars for a couple of dealerships for years. He always liked cars. Eventually he was making enough doing that on the side to be able to quit his job and do that full time. He worked from his home (in his garage)for years before he rented a garage building to do that full time. What did that take? Not much but a lot of hard work, no free time, little family time etc. He got married before having children, has one child and one wife. Successful to me. No college degree. His other brother and sister, similar stories except they work for others and do not own their own companies. My husband's dad worked with metal at a factory and was often out of work and had to look for work out of town etc. I guess what I am saying is that hard work even doing something that doesn't take much 'skill' can make your life better. Instead of always saying that racism keeps blacks down and we can't be expected to do better until all white people and all institutions stop being racist we should focus on moral behavior, stop having illegit kids (and no abortion is not the answer to this) and hard work in spite of the problems we face. If we do this I think that we can progress much farther than saying that the only way the majority of blacks will be able to achieve is if white people stop holding us down. I don't believe that most white people are racists, but even if I did, why would I leave my fate or the fate of my people in their hands. No excuses. I love my people. I think that we are some of the most talented people in the world. We have overcome so much and we are still going. I believe that we have so much to give to the world that is not being given because we don't expect enough. I would never let anyone put down my people with untruth. I will look at the truth though no matter how difficult it is to see or hear others say. I want the best for blacks and the only way to get it is to fight for it and unfortunately so many times we are fighting our own to get a chance. For example, I can't tell you how many times I was told I acted white because I speak properly and like school. I know it's a common example, but it happened to me. I didn;t care b/c that's the most stupid thing that I have ever heard, but this is the type of attitude that prevents us from moving forwrd. Blacks should not be defined by the lowest classes in the group. Gangsta is not black. Anyway, I hope that sheds some light on what I am saying. We probably agree on more things than not, but I just hope you can see that we republicans care about all people succeeding. I believe that the same ingredients make people become successful no matter the race. SOme people may have more or different obstacles, but most of us who were not born rich have plenty to overcome in order to become successful.
I didn't say that liberal blacks feel that they are special I said that successful liberal blacks feel this way.
I don't know your definition of "success", but I grew up with parents who were staunch democrats, both educated, and in a "nice" area of town. I don't think once they have ever expressed this generalization.
As far as going to college, that is not the only way to be successful in this life. In my husband's family, he is the only one that went to college. But all are to a degree successful. I call success having a good family, and good job and own your home. Some may not call that success, but that covers the basics.
I didn't say college was the only way to be successful, and if that is the case there are several successful people living in poverty. My grandmother was successful working three jobs, raising three kids alone, and living in her house, without an ounce of public assistant. She was also successful in her later years when she was struggling to pay her utility bills, and had a hard time paying for her medications while her current husband tried to work construction jobs at age 82 to make ends meet. In your mind the poor are lazy and shiftless, in my mind those are the ones who work and still struggle. She wasn't able to cover the basics, and if many people missed a check in this country, they wouldn't be able to either.
He got married before having children, has one child and one wife. Successful to me.
Then a lot of people in this world are successful then. Doesn't mean that they struggle and have a hard time in this world.
Instead of always saying that racism keeps blacks down and we can't be expected to do better until all white people and all institutions stop being racist we should focus on moral behavior, stop having illegit kids (and no abortion is not the answer to this) and hard work in spite of the problems we face
I get so tired of the "hard work" argument. What makes you thinks people aren't working hard regardless of racism or not? Why is it wrong to acknowledge racism exists in this country and in some instances can be a barrier to people advancing in a company. You want folks to just sit quietly and be excited someone gave them a job, even though they are making 25% less than everyone else in the same job because they have more melanin. I guess it is ok to pay higher interest rates on loans because your skin is darker. We should just shut up and be happy the whites even let us get a loan or a job, right? Most people aren't sitting in the corner waiting for the man to help them. They are working, they are doing what they are supposed to do, and they are still failing, why is that so hard to admit that the fairy tale of hard work getting you ahead doesn't apply to everyone equally in this country. Moral behavior doesn't stop the issues of race in this country. I have no children out of wedlock,I am married, I own a home, I have a degree, I have some skills, but I still experience racism. Quit pretending racism will disappear and blacks will be seen as equals if we just act like white people. It won't happen I know from personal experience. I live and was raised in the suburbs and people still assumed I was in a gang, my father didn't work, and that I know all about poverty, gangs, and hip hop, even if I wasn't even exposed to that type of lifestyle. My parents purposely shielded me from that part of "black culture" because to them that is not what they wanted me to strive for, of course it didn't matter, some folks still made that assumption.
For example, I can't tell you how many times I was told I acted white because I speak properly and like school.
Welcome to my world and countless others, doesn't mean I must think that the majority black folks have this mentality.
Blacks should not be defined by the lowest classes in the group. Gangsta is not black.
They shouldn't but blacks are defined by the lowest classes. Some white people look at BET and assume that is black culture and apply to their co-workers, the people on the street, and if you don't fit into that stereotype of "black culture", in their minds you are the exception and not the rule.
In terms of agreeing. I was raised in the manner in which you find to be the norm. My parents owned their own home, had stable jobs, my parents had me within the confines of marriage, are still married 35 years later, and worked very hard. They have passed on those ideals to me, I am 32 and per my mother I am taking the no children before marriage rule too serious, as she is still waiting for me and my husband to give her grandchildren.
However, they still remember segregation, I am sure many white people do too. I was born 6 miles a way from a sundown town. I see inequities in the justice system in how blacks and whites are treated for the same type of crimes. I don't think most whites think they are racist, but most whites are. I think most blacks are the same way. We've never had a frank discussion on race in this country, and probably never will. I don't think it is a bad thing to point out the ills of the country, racism is one of those ills, why is it bad to acknowledge?
Sid,
First of all, your blog is so heavy my computer at work can't load it. I have just finally succeeded. I no longer have time during the week to blog at home.
"I believe Condy is an American born black, her family has strong roots here in America".
WOW, this is crazy. I always thought Condi was of Carribean decent. And that was way before getting here and before the whole black wars. Collin Powell appears more native born than she is. Interesting.
I was thinking however that for Black Republicans, they have to have a take on race differently than the rest of us do. They most likely look at it as one silly distraction by a white supremist system ( that is beatable) and nothing to do about them as individuals and their goals. In that mind frame they manage to handle the contradictions that come with being a Republican as a black person. Their psychology has to be interesting.
I was listening to the BBC the other day and in Russia, Condi is the most dreaded character in the Bush Administration. They, in many ways prefer Bush to her. They think she is to hard and a no nonsense character.
Her achievements on the foreign front have been overshadowed by the Administration's failures. She has actually been very instrumental in toning down some otherwise erratic world leaders. I like the way she recently handled North Koreas threats to restart their Nuclear program. It would have been nice to see her serve in a less tainted administration.
"In all fairness to the Black Republicans, there are plenty of liberal whites who think blacks are less than as well but they never say it do to political correctness. In fact I've heard such people say that we really need to help blacks because they can't do for themselves and their "culture" needs a boost in order to compete with other groups. Those opinions aren't too much different from the people at the Palin rallies"
I agree. I straight up racist is better to me. A hypocrite is much more dangerous.
"In terms of the values of the republican party, what exactly are they, I thought that were the points I touched upon in my post. If I was wrong, please let me know".
For lack of a better phrase, they are founded in traditional Christian values. Any society that uses traditional Christian values, will find itself more alined with Republican values than Democratic.
Strangely, where I am from you will get killed trying to take away people's rights to own guns. We have been so militarized that its a way of life. So in that area we would still align with the right. As for abortion rights, we would make republicans look like preschoolers. And forget about about gay rights. I am guessing that most Africans that naturalize do vote democratic because of the race politics but would otherwise vote republican.
Hi,
My name is Tia and I'm an editor at OpposingViews.com, the debate website. Since we both cover race issues, I thought I'd drop you a note. I would've e-mailed you but I couldn't find an address.
See, we're currently having a discussion about whether or not we still need affirmative action. You can see it here:
http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/do-we-still-need-affirmative-action
Although vetted experts are the ones doing the debating, anyone can contribute by choosing a side and posting comments about the experts' arguments.
Check it out and, if you have the time, let me know what you think at tia@opposingviews.com
Thanks!
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