This is kind of a heavy topic. So to lighten the mood. I am posting some of my favorite televangelists.
Dr. Gene Scott blew my mind. A pastor who cursed and smoked:
Jan Crouch is the best, her hair has it's own life. She used to have a big pink mansion here in the Dallas area. I wonder if she still has it, and if it is still pink:
Jonathan Bell is the best. He was a local Public Access legend:
This church is located right now the road from me, literally. This is Doyle Davidson and he just straight up scary. He is very controversial, but dang it, he is funny. I admit I watch his live telecasts on the local TV station, his show is crazy.
This is Doyle talking about his "slut wife". This woman was never legally his wife, and was married to someone else, and who went into hiding and had him arrested to keep him from stalking her. If you go to the church website he posts letters on the site directed to her, to this day, I think he posted a message to her yesterday.
Rev. X is just the best, I could watch this man for days. Spirit of Truth:
Now on to the real post......
I am faithless. I have been for several years. I am actually an atheist. Before that I was a Baptist. To give you a bit of background. I come from a fairly religious Missionary Baptist family. I have preachers in my family, some who work at the Potter's House. My father is a Gideon (the people who put Bibles in hotel rooms) and a deacon of the church my parents attend. My brother and sister do Awanas. My mother has done many a pancake breakfast and is an active member of the women's groups. I attended Christian private schools throughout elementary and middle school. I have actually read the Bible, King James and NIV. I did Sunday and Wednesday night service faithfully growing up and was in the youth group in our church. So I am familiar with religion, and I am not using this post as a way to find my way to Christ.
I proclaimed I was an atheist at age 14, when my maternal grandmother died. I just lost the concept of faith and started questioning why people were so eager to worship a deity and follow the teachings of a book that I don't think was written per the word of said deity verbatim. I saw my grandmother have several children, stick out a bad marriage, live in poverty, and basically give as much as she could to the church to ensure she would have a great afterlife. As wonderful as an afterlife is, I would have loved for her to have a good life here on this earth. Not to say she was completely miserable, but my grandfather wasn't necessarily husband or father of the year and raising ten kids is no joke, especially on their income. I wondered why God would make a woman work so hard to get accepted into his kingdom, why couldn't she just be a good person and get in, why must one suffer to prove their love? Why did she have to penny pinch money for the sole purpose of giving her ten percent to the church. I couldn't figure it out, so I decided I wouldn't believe at all. When I told my mother at age 14, I was an atheist, she looked at me, told me I wasn't, and then kept doing what she was doing. She was in disbelief, and I was steady still going to church on a regular at the insistence of my mother.
I think another thing that bothered me was that many times preachers did this thing of giving a political view and using the Bible to support this view. I think abortion is ok, not for me, but for someone else. I think it is ok for people to be gay, and that in the overwhelmingly majority of instances, people are born gay, and it isn't a lifestyle choice. I didn't think listening to certain types of music would send a person to hell. I liked Halloween and dressing up in costumes. I believe in evolution. I thought as long as you were a good person, that was all God could ask, and that sometimes to give ten percent of your income to the church wasn't attainable for all people, and that people who couldn't give ten percent weren't bad, just broke. I questioned these topics at times and was told I was questioning God, and how dare I do such a thing. I then decided that God should want us to question, if there was one, and that it was wrong to blindly follow without at least thinking about why you are believing what you believe.
In college I decided I didn't know if there was a God or not. I didn't have a concrete answer to say either or, and I was too scared to blatantly say there isn't a God, but I wasn't ready to go to church to investigate. I looked at switching up religions. I looked at Unitarian Universalism, and I still like the concept, but I think of it more as a theory of thought than actual organized religion. I like the idea of the Bahai religion, but there were a few tenets I wasn't necessarily ok with. I did not want to remain a Baptist because to be a Baptist, you for all intensive purposes have to be a conservative, even though tons of black people tend to vote democrat, the church views tend to be staunchly conservative. No sex before marriage, children out of wedlock, the only true union has to be between a man and a woman.
I also had a hard to juggling my scientific beliefs with the Church. I believe the world is more than 6,000 years old. I again believe in evolution. I have a hard time believing that people in the bible lived to be over 900 years old. I am inclined to believe the Great Flood happened, but I have a hard time believing Noah was able to build an arc large enough to house a male and female of all the world's animals. I don't think dinosaurs and people co-existed.
I also have a hard time as a woman with the role of women in the Bible. Sin began with a woman, and it seems from the get go women are seen as cursed. I don't want to think of myself as a curse, or as being wicked. I think this has been used for eons as to why women are the "weaker" sex and justified why at one time it was ok for a man to beat his wife, or treat her like a child rather than an equal.
Finally, my most controversial view is that I think the Christian church has long been a coping mechanism for black people. During slave times, if you wanted to learn to read, you read the Bible, in church. Church was really the only time you had off from working as a slave. The church was integral to the success of the Underground Railroad, it was the place where people organized during the Civil Rights movement. I will not deny the Church is very important to the African American experience. I do have my reservations though. Why are we still embracing a religion that was forced upon us, and eager to shun others who don't believe the way the Christian church does? Why is it we haven't branched off into other religions outside of Christianity? Why would we want to hold on to a religion that many used to justify our enslavement?
I always wonder what will happen if I ever have kids. Will I be offended they chose a religion or will I want them to have religion? I think religion can be a good thing, it just isn't for me at this point and time. Maybe if I stay an atheist, maybe they will have the opportunity to choose their own religion, and not just be raised in a religion and then determine at a certain age they don't like said religion hand picked for them. I want my kids to question things so that they can gain a better understanding. I want my kids to believe in science. I want religion to be something they discover and come into on their own, and not just something to follow blindly.
Maybe in ten years I will become a born again Christian, but until then I have decided I just don't know, and I admit I don't know all the answers, and I hope that doesn't make me a bad person.
Dr. Gene Scott blew my mind. A pastor who cursed and smoked:
Jan Crouch is the best, her hair has it's own life. She used to have a big pink mansion here in the Dallas area. I wonder if she still has it, and if it is still pink:
Jonathan Bell is the best. He was a local Public Access legend:
This church is located right now the road from me, literally. This is Doyle Davidson and he just straight up scary. He is very controversial, but dang it, he is funny. I admit I watch his live telecasts on the local TV station, his show is crazy.
This is Doyle talking about his "slut wife". This woman was never legally his wife, and was married to someone else, and who went into hiding and had him arrested to keep him from stalking her. If you go to the church website he posts letters on the site directed to her, to this day, I think he posted a message to her yesterday.
Rev. X is just the best, I could watch this man for days. Spirit of Truth:
Now on to the real post......
I am faithless. I have been for several years. I am actually an atheist. Before that I was a Baptist. To give you a bit of background. I come from a fairly religious Missionary Baptist family. I have preachers in my family, some who work at the Potter's House. My father is a Gideon (the people who put Bibles in hotel rooms) and a deacon of the church my parents attend. My brother and sister do Awanas. My mother has done many a pancake breakfast and is an active member of the women's groups. I attended Christian private schools throughout elementary and middle school. I have actually read the Bible, King James and NIV. I did Sunday and Wednesday night service faithfully growing up and was in the youth group in our church. So I am familiar with religion, and I am not using this post as a way to find my way to Christ.
I proclaimed I was an atheist at age 14, when my maternal grandmother died. I just lost the concept of faith and started questioning why people were so eager to worship a deity and follow the teachings of a book that I don't think was written per the word of said deity verbatim. I saw my grandmother have several children, stick out a bad marriage, live in poverty, and basically give as much as she could to the church to ensure she would have a great afterlife. As wonderful as an afterlife is, I would have loved for her to have a good life here on this earth. Not to say she was completely miserable, but my grandfather wasn't necessarily husband or father of the year and raising ten kids is no joke, especially on their income. I wondered why God would make a woman work so hard to get accepted into his kingdom, why couldn't she just be a good person and get in, why must one suffer to prove their love? Why did she have to penny pinch money for the sole purpose of giving her ten percent to the church. I couldn't figure it out, so I decided I wouldn't believe at all. When I told my mother at age 14, I was an atheist, she looked at me, told me I wasn't, and then kept doing what she was doing. She was in disbelief, and I was steady still going to church on a regular at the insistence of my mother.
I think another thing that bothered me was that many times preachers did this thing of giving a political view and using the Bible to support this view. I think abortion is ok, not for me, but for someone else. I think it is ok for people to be gay, and that in the overwhelmingly majority of instances, people are born gay, and it isn't a lifestyle choice. I didn't think listening to certain types of music would send a person to hell. I liked Halloween and dressing up in costumes. I believe in evolution. I thought as long as you were a good person, that was all God could ask, and that sometimes to give ten percent of your income to the church wasn't attainable for all people, and that people who couldn't give ten percent weren't bad, just broke. I questioned these topics at times and was told I was questioning God, and how dare I do such a thing. I then decided that God should want us to question, if there was one, and that it was wrong to blindly follow without at least thinking about why you are believing what you believe.
In college I decided I didn't know if there was a God or not. I didn't have a concrete answer to say either or, and I was too scared to blatantly say there isn't a God, but I wasn't ready to go to church to investigate. I looked at switching up religions. I looked at Unitarian Universalism, and I still like the concept, but I think of it more as a theory of thought than actual organized religion. I like the idea of the Bahai religion, but there were a few tenets I wasn't necessarily ok with. I did not want to remain a Baptist because to be a Baptist, you for all intensive purposes have to be a conservative, even though tons of black people tend to vote democrat, the church views tend to be staunchly conservative. No sex before marriage, children out of wedlock, the only true union has to be between a man and a woman.
I also had a hard to juggling my scientific beliefs with the Church. I believe the world is more than 6,000 years old. I again believe in evolution. I have a hard time believing that people in the bible lived to be over 900 years old. I am inclined to believe the Great Flood happened, but I have a hard time believing Noah was able to build an arc large enough to house a male and female of all the world's animals. I don't think dinosaurs and people co-existed.
I also have a hard time as a woman with the role of women in the Bible. Sin began with a woman, and it seems from the get go women are seen as cursed. I don't want to think of myself as a curse, or as being wicked. I think this has been used for eons as to why women are the "weaker" sex and justified why at one time it was ok for a man to beat his wife, or treat her like a child rather than an equal.
Finally, my most controversial view is that I think the Christian church has long been a coping mechanism for black people. During slave times, if you wanted to learn to read, you read the Bible, in church. Church was really the only time you had off from working as a slave. The church was integral to the success of the Underground Railroad, it was the place where people organized during the Civil Rights movement. I will not deny the Church is very important to the African American experience. I do have my reservations though. Why are we still embracing a religion that was forced upon us, and eager to shun others who don't believe the way the Christian church does? Why is it we haven't branched off into other religions outside of Christianity? Why would we want to hold on to a religion that many used to justify our enslavement?
I always wonder what will happen if I ever have kids. Will I be offended they chose a religion or will I want them to have religion? I think religion can be a good thing, it just isn't for me at this point and time. Maybe if I stay an atheist, maybe they will have the opportunity to choose their own religion, and not just be raised in a religion and then determine at a certain age they don't like said religion hand picked for them. I want my kids to question things so that they can gain a better understanding. I want my kids to believe in science. I want religion to be something they discover and come into on their own, and not just something to follow blindly.
Maybe in ten years I will become a born again Christian, but until then I have decided I just don't know, and I admit I don't know all the answers, and I hope that doesn't make me a bad person.
33 comments:
I practically agree with you on all counts.
I'm an agnostic atheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
My mother was raised Catholic and probably became an atheist because of her crappy childhood. I've never discussed religion with my father but he shows no outward signs of religious belief. We celebrated Christmas and Easter as cultural holidays, an excuse to cook and spend time with family. Socially it can be very hard being an atheist/agnostic in the Midwest. I try not to tell people too soon because many react with shock and fear. I would not mind being in a relationship with a moderate religious person as long as they don't try to convert me. I'm even willing to allow my children to be raised in a religious tradition. Children like to rebel against their parents so if I shove atheism down their throats they will probably run to evangelicalism.
What turns me off the most about religion, other than the obvious lack of reason and logic is the hypocrisy and the treatment of women. The idea that women should become obedient and submissively allow the husband the make the final decisions is appalling. We all have strengths and we all have opinions. If he knows more about cars he can decide what mini van we buy but there are many areas where I have knowledge and strength. I want the kind of husband who is not threatened by me having my own mind.
I've always felt that the most overtly religious are those who have already done more than their fair share of dirt and now want to sit around and nitpick judge others. Dubya being a prime example.
maybe your kids can also be agnostics?
I believe in God based on my personal experiences, but I would never shove my beliefs down someone else's throat. I have friends of all faiths and I don't think my faith is more superior to theirs. I'm married to a hardcore Atheist, so it's really interesting in my home.
I'm not one to buy into labels, but for all intents and purposes of discussion...I'm agnostic.
The bible is not a divinely insprired book. To say so is no different than the FDA saying a drug is, well, FDA approved. Bottom line, its all marketing.
The bible is a rippoff of anciant egyptian writings. And thats the truth about that book.
I don't know if there is a God, but I damn sure don't depend on any man telling me that there is one anymore.
You are like the second person I have seen to post that Rev X. guy. I first some him on a post Thembi did about people like him. She also had a funny funny video on the Hebrew Israelites.
Interesting post.
Hey Siddity:-) I would if i could write you a long email about this topic but i can't now as i have no time but i will.
In fact wish i could sit down an explain why i believe in God and i understand people's need to "spread God's word" not because i want to in force the Torah, Qur'an or the Bible but because i would love everyone to feel that inner peace and strength i feel when i think about God. Especially atheists, because i do believe in a God so strongly now more than ever and as a scientist my belief grows stronger. I believe very much in evolution, it was my best subject at school and the teacher who taught it to me was a devout catholic and loved the evolution theory. It's funny because this year i have been going to lots of debates held by professionals in philosophy and theology and i am taking a course at uni. on Religion and Philosophy. I often feel sorry for atheists because i think they haven't opened their eyes to the world if they don't believe in something bigger. I believe that firmly as a scientist. If you asked me about God last year i would have had a pretty agnostic-chirstian view. I follow christianity because i am comfortable with it. But as i have studied and asked about other religions you honestly will not believe the similarties..they are HUGE, even with Buddha who doesn't believe in a higher power. Conversations with God is a good book i think. It made me think, you should read it...then read the Bible as se if it feels different :-P ???
I will email you a story about a little miracle that happened to me.:-) xxx
To stay on topic, I am a proud agnostic. My faith is personal and is my own and I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me just as a religious person would want me to think they were brainwashed.
Now, off topic, I saw the documentary Color of Fear last night presented by the writer/director and one of the men in the film. It's a '93 documentarty that places six men in a room to discuss race relations in this country. It was one of the most powerful pieces of art that I have ever seen in my life. I can only hope to articulate my feeling the way Victor and David did in the film. I recommend you see if you haven't already. I can't find it on Netflix or Amazon but I found a clip on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAbpJW_xEc
Siditty, have you seen Religulous yet?
I'm not trying to proselytize, but I want to correct some misconceptions I've seen in Siddity's post and in some of the comments. If you think Christianity is about following a set of rules, you’ve completely missed the point of Christ's message. The fact is no one can be good enough to earn their way into Heaven. The standard is God, a being who knows no sin. We're not even talking the big ones like murder and adultery. We're talking pride, jealously, and lying. No one can meet that standard, so Christ, being a perfect being, took the punishment we deserved. Any church that imposes guidelines you must follow to be saved such as attending X number of services in a week, voting Republican, and even the sacred cow of tithing, are not preaching the true Gospel.
The other point I want to address is the view of women. It is true that Eve ate the forbidden fruit first, but Adam is equally guilty. Yes, Eve was cursed, but so were Adam and the entire Creation. In the book of Romans, Paul writes that sin entered the world through Adam. Women played a large role in the Bible. Deborah was one of the Old Testament judges, a ruler. Tabitha, Priscilla, and Lydia helped Paul found some of the early churches. If you read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you’ll see that Christ had a tremendous respect for women and they played a large role in his ministry. It is true the Paul said he did not permit women to teach, but he was writing to one specific church where the women had been misled by false teachers.
There is no doubt that people have twisted the Bible for their own purposes. Each person needs to read the Bible for him/herself and decide what he or she believes, not just blindly adhere to whatever a spiritual leader says. There are a number of things in my own church that I don’t agree with. But I firmly believe faith and reason can co-exist.
Although I have always believe in God, I never had a personal relation with him, now because I am going to a church, which preaches the word of God and you used the word of God over your situation, I have found the strength to do things that I would never do, chalenge people I would never challenge. I am in a much better place in my life and I put it down to God and knowing him, and seeing things for a very different angle.
great post. I stopped going to church for a few months when I was living at home with my mom for a few months because I didn't feel like it matter if I went at all. my mom was a little upset with me, so I ended up going to a different one for awhile.
I did some of the same things you did, questioning things about Christianity, etc. I actually did a little research about early Christianity and how the bible was put together. I came across a site that had some of the books that weren't put in the bible for various reason. after doing a bunch of reading I came to the conclusion that I am an esoteric christian. I don't go to church right now but when I go back home from time to time, I go to the Methodist church with my mom. Methodists are generally cool people and they don't really get too politically which drives me nuts.
It's not necessary to follow any religion to believe in G-d. Folks have a falling out with "the Church", or thy don't like some of the stuff in the Bible, so they then declare themselves atheist/agnostic.
Someone writes what's 'considered' to be the definitive book on air, and creates an air club with lots of members. Certain members, because they don't like the club or have problems with the book, declare, "There is no air!" or "I'm not so sure about the existence or nature of air!". Not a perfect example, but, hopefully, you get my drift.
In my opinion G-d exists with OR without the Bible, the Church or religion (which, I believe, are strictly creations of Man).
First of all Sid, no you didn't bust out with the Water of Life clip. That church is right next door to the church my best friend grew up in and her mom and stepdad still attend, and she's always having to clarify that "no, they don't go to that freaky church you've seen on TV". Doyle Davidson is terrifying. Remember a few years ago when Dena Schlosser cut off her baby's arms because "God told her to"? Guess what church she had attended? Nuff said.
Anyway, the parallels in our lives are freaky, including the agnostic/atheist period in my early teens when I rejected my family's Holiness version of Christianity. But you implied something interesting in your post, something we share. I became an atheist, then an agnostic, because I was inculcated with the idea that if you weren't a Christian, agnosticism or atheism were the only options. Other religious traditions were not only wrong, they were for white people (except for Islam, and that was only for militants). Exploring alternative paths was never presented as something feasible, and the only blacks who did so were bourgie and inauthentic. I never understood why we were supposed to embrace a faith that had been used to oppress and enslave us just as much as we used it to sustain and liberate us, and why those who were concerned about authenticity didn't embrace more indigenous faiths that really represent our roots, like West African Vodun or West Indian Obeah.
When I finally had the sense to reject that either/or, black or white thinking, I began to explore many faith traditions, realizing I had become an agnostic because I could never shake the feeling that there was something greater than all of us out there, even if it didn't look like that old man with the white beard or the young one with the long hair. I explored Eastern traditions, mystery religions, New Age spirituality, and when I found Paganism, and Wicca specifically, I knew I had found my true spiritual home. Since then, my mind has expanded and I've become more generous about and open to a variety of faiths. My partner is a member of the Society of Friends (Quakers), my best friend is a Baptist, and I have other friends who are Buddhist, Jewish, Sufi and Muslim. I went to a Catholic University for my undergraduate degree and I am still very close to two of my professors there, a priest and nun respectively. I say all this to say that despite what we are often indoctrinated to believe, spirituality is not a binary concept. There are more options than one specific kind of faith or none at all. And nothing says you have to follow an organized religion. I strongly believe that if deity is to have any resonance or truth, there has to be more than one path to that deity. It's just up to human beings to figure that out and stop futilely battling each other over whose path is right.
I am just glad no one is condemning me to hell yet :)
I was scared to see some of these comments.
Oli, my husband is an agnostic atheist. We are big readers of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Michael Onfray, or at least watchers of youtube videos by people of this ilk :)
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Thelady,
I normally don't tell people what I am, and at times I have lied, because I knew there would be hell to pay if I didn't. People don't take kindly to those who don't believe the same things they do sometimes.
I also agree that many times the most religious folks are the ones who have done things in their past they aren't proud of or have had really hard lives. Most people though are middle of the road, and they don't bother you as long as you don't bother them. They have their beliefs, but aren't going to bother you for having yours.
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maybe your kids can also be agnostics?
Miriam,
I want my kids to be exposed to many different religions without having someone tell them they are good or bad. I never really had that option. I was born a Baptist, and was expected to be one throughout life. I want my kids not to hear that people like Muslims, Jews, Buddhists aren't going to hell because they beleive differently. I want them to explore religions and choose for themselves what they want to beleive. I would hope I would be open to their views, as long as they didn't join some strange cult, i.e. Charles Manson like stuff.
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I believe in God based on my personal experiences, but I would never shove my beliefs down someone else's throat. I have friends of all faiths and I don't think my faith is more superior to theirs. I'm married to a hardcore Atheist, so it's really interesting in my home.
How do you guys balance that, do your kids go to church or share your faith? Are they Baptized or do they engage in religious holidays?
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I'm not one to buy into labels, but for all intents and purposes of discussion...I'm agnostic.
The bible is not a divinely insprired book. To say so is no different than the FDA saying a drug is, well, FDA approved. Bottom line, its all marketing.
The bible is a rippoff of anciant egyptian writings. And thats the truth about that book.
I don't know if there is a God, but I damn sure don't depend on any man telling me that there is one anymore.
I think that is where I am. I am going to just say I don't know and I hope that I live my life as best as I can, not because it is expected of me in order to gain favor, but because I want to be a good person, regardless of the proposed rewards.
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You are like the second person I have seen to post that Rev X. guy. I first some him on a post Thembi did about people like him. She also had a funny funny video on the Hebrew Israelites.
Interesting post.
Rev. X is just the best to me, I could watch him all day. He is not the person I would go to if I wanted to learn more about religion, I will go ahead and say that.
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In fact wish i could sit down an explain why i believe in God and i understand people's need to "spread God's word" not because i want to in force the Torah, Qur'an or the Bible but because i would love everyone to feel that inner peace and strength i feel when i think about God. Especially atheists, because i do believe in a God so strongly now more than ever and as a scientist my belief grows stronger. I believe very much in evolution, it was my best subject at school and the teacher who taught it to me was a devout catholic and loved the evolution theory.
I grew up in an area, where people rejected the concept of evolution, my parents didn't,they believe in evolution but my schoolmates did not. My father is a scientist, so I think that they probably had a more rationale view of religion, even though my parents are pretty religious, they do seem to be very middle of the road. My parents are fine with the concept of gay people getting married, even though my father did get nervous when my little brother wanted a princess Barbie. They don't get upset I don't go to church. They do on occasion ask me if I like to go, and I decline. I think they are hoping the can get me back on their side :)
In terms of inner love and peace. I get inner love and peace knowing I am loved by my family and friends, that I try to live my life as best as I can, and I try to help others to the best of my ability. I get peace in knowing that one day I might make an impact on someone else's life and make things better for them, if only for a minute or two. I think that I have inner strength and peace, and I think like everyone else, it gets tested, but it doesn't go away because I don't necessarily know if there is a God or not.
I often feel sorry for atheists because i think they haven't opened their eyes to the world if they don't believe in something bigger.
I do believe in something bigger, I believe in humanity, and I don't feel bad for it. The world is bigger than just me, and I realize that. I beleive that most people are good. Some are ignorant, some are unaware, and some are hurt, but there is good in every person.
Please send me your story, I would love to read it. I love reading about miracles, even if I am not sure how they come about :)
I've been exposed to different faiths, none which have called to me. My mother is a Hindu, although she pushed me into Christianity (but I think just to get an extra hour of sleep on Sundays...lol) My grandmother was Christian and didn't go to church often, but she grew up hard too. My Grandfather was a bastard to the nth degree.
My sister and brother were raised Hindu, but my brother is agnostic now at 20. My daughter has been exposed to the Southern Baptist church through her dad's parents and made her own decision that she is Agnostic (this was when she was twelve....she's fifteen now).
As for myself, I have much respect for all religions. My mother never tried to convert me to Hinduism, but I did have a great respect for it's teachings and culture itself.
I do believe in divine intervention, the law of attraction, and spirituality. I don't know about heaven and hell, but I believe in reincarnation. All of these individual beliefs are from my own personal experiences. So until I get shown otherwise, I'll continue with my life.
I'm still a good person and I do my part in society. I haven't killed anyone and I know right from wrong. Whether I don't think I have to go to church or have a religion to live my life graciously.
To stay on topic, I am a proud agnostic. My faith is personal and is my own and I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me just as a religious person would want me to think they were brainwashed. Now, off topic, I saw the documentary Color of Fear last night presented by the writer/director and one of the men in the film. It's a '93 documentarty that places six men in a room to discuss race relations in this country
I feel the same way, Moviegirl. I don't want people to think I just sit in corner hating those who are religious and walking around feeling empty inside.
I have seen that clip before, and I would really like to see that film, I wonder if I could find it at my library?
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I started putting this into affect little over a year ago and I am making out handsomely this year. I say give it a shot for no other reason than just pure greed. The best part is that it requires absolutely zero faith. Hell you could probably skip the tithe and make out like a bandit just practicing the sabbath on Saturday. How much fun would it be to every Saturday say "Nope I am on strike today" Where is Miriam and Ehav to back me up on this. Not to mention my life has just gotten better all around.
Do you think you could you have applied those principles you obtained from the Bible without believing in God?
I have read the Bible, it has been a few years, I am more than happy to read it again, but I don't think it will change me too much. Maybe I am tainted :)
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Siditty, have you seen Religulous yet?
Yes I have, and I love it :)
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. If you think Christianity is about following a set of rules, you’ve completely missed the point of Christ's message. The fact is no one can be good enough to earn their way into Heaven. The standard is God, a being who knows no sin. We're not even talking the big ones like murder and adultery. We're talking pride, jealously, and lying. No one can meet that standard, so Christ, being a perfect being, took the punishment we deserved. Any church that imposes guidelines you must follow to be saved such as attending X number of services in a week, voting Republican, and even the sacred cow of tithing, are not preaching the true Gospel.
It isn't about the set of rules, I just don't understand and I don't pretend to understand how religion or how God works. If I read the Bible as a modern day feminist I am taken aback. If I look at how many in history have used the book to justify prejudice and violence I am offended. I read the book, and I have a hard time coming to grips with it and my beliefs.
But I firmly believe faith and reason can co-exist.
I believe that as well, I just don't think that faith is necessarily for me.
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Although I have always believe in God, I never had a personal relation with him, now because I am going to a church, which preaches the word of God and you used the word of God over your situation, I have found the strength to do things that I would never do, chalenge people I would never challenge. I am in a much better place in my life and I put it down to God and knowing him, and seeing things for a very different angle.
I think faith is a great thing and it is an amazing tool for those it reaches :)
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I did some of the same things you did, questioning things about Christianity, etc. I actually did a little research about early Christianity and how the bible was put together. I came across a site that had some of the books that weren't put in the bible for various reason. after doing a bunch of reading I came to the conclusion that I am an esoteric christian. I don't go to church right now but when I go back home from time to time, I go to the Methodist church with my mom. Methodists are generally cool people and they don't really get too politically which drives me nuts.
I think a lot of people are like you, I think the vast majority of "non religious" people are like that. They believe they are just not active in the church like others.
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It's not necessary to follow any religion to believe in G-d. Folks have a falling out with "the Church", or thy don't like some of the stuff in the Bible, so they then declare themselves atheist/agnostic.
Why is it assumed I had a falling out with the church? I went agnostic and contemplated believing in god and being spiritual, but it didn't work for me. I don't think Church is what makes a someone "Godly". I questioned my religion, why I was a member, and why I felt the need to have a deity to help me guide my life. My conclusion is I don't know, and I at this time don't feel I should have an answer, nor do I feel the need to follow and make a decision on how and what God truly is to me. I feel if there is a God great, if their isn't, also great. I am not going to go through the motions of pretending to believe just to save face just in case the Rapture comes.
Someone writes what's 'considered' to be the definitive book on air, and creates an air club with lots of members. Certain members, because they don't like the club or have problems with the book, declare, "There is no air!" or "I'm not so sure about the existence or nature of air!". Not a perfect example, but, hopefully, you get my drift.
There is science to prove air exists, that we need air to survive, that air needs to be clean for us to remain healthy or survive. There is no exact science to prove God or any other diety. It is based upon faith.
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. That church is right next door to the church my best friend grew up in and her mom and stepdad still attend, and she's always having to clarify that "no, they don't go to that freaky church you've seen on TV". Doyle Davidson is terrifying. Remember a few years ago when Dena Schlosser cut off her baby's arms because "God told her to"? Guess what church she had attended? Nuff said.
Yeah Doyle lost a lot of followers when that woman killed her baby, and determined her baby was gong to be his future wife.
I just like to watch the women dance with tambourines and twirl around while he paces up and down the carpet. I don't understand how they can understand him, he sounds drunk the majority of the time.
I was inculcated with the idea that if you weren't a Christian, agnosticism or atheism were the only options.
I think many times folks think the only way to truly know God is through Christianity. I read and researched on other faiths. I used to be a regular over at beliefnet.com, and I still go there, interesting reads over there, and you can learn some basic tenets of so many religions.
My partner is a member of the Society of Friends (Quakers), my best friend is a Baptist, and I have other friends who are Buddhist, Jewish, Sufi and Muslim. I went to a Catholic University for my undergraduate degree and I am still very close to two of my professors there, a priest and nun respectively. I say all this to say that despite what we are often indoctrinated to believe, spirituality is not a binary concept. There are more options than one specific kind of faith or none at all
OK Is your partner the younger guy you talked about last time? :)
I took a beliefnet quiz years ago to determine what religion I might fall under and it told me I was a Quaker, and I was so confused because at that point, I equated Quakers with the Amish, I am not sure why.
I did look at other religions, I once dated a Muslim guy from Pakistan, my first proposal from a guy, and I decided against it, because I was 19 and too young to get married, and the perceived role of women in the religion wasn't to my liking. I looked into Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, and the Bahai faith. I used to also read the books I received from the Hare Krishna's in Deep Ellum :)
Winnowill,
How do you find Quakers in Dallas. I know Muslims and tons of Christians and I see Hare Krishna's when I go to Kalachandis, but I don't think I have ever met a Quaker.
Winnowill,
How do you find Quakers in Dallas. I know Muslims and tons of Christians and I see Hare Krishna's when I go to Kalachandis, but I don't think I have ever met a Quaker.
I'll bet you've met Quakers before and just didn't realize it. A lot of people equate them with the Amish, but as I'm sure you're aware, they are nothing alike. Quakers are simple, quiet, and generally private about their faith; even their religious services (simply called "meetings") are generally quiet, meditative affairs. One of the things that fascinated me was the fact that they don't ever "pass the collection plate" at their meetings. They generally keep a donation box somewhere near the entrance and people are free to contribute what they can without scrutiny from others. Anyway, because they often refer to themselves as "friends" instead of Quakers, people often don't know who they are. The Dallas Friends meet twice a week at the Dallas Quaker House, which is on Worth Street, off of Gaston and Columbia. Quakers are historically strong believers in and advocates for peace, social justice, and racial integration, which may be why you resonated with them when you took the belief.net quiz. My partner and I met at a planning meeting for an antiwar protest at the Dallas Peace Center.
(Oh, and Sid, yes, I was referring to the younger man I mentioned dating some threads back. I didn't even realize I'd called him my "partner" until you pointed it out. Interesting...Things are getting quite serious between us, and I guess my fingers just moved us right on to the next level without me realizing it! LOL!)
I think there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual, and for me, I know I'm spiritual rather than being religious. I think people get too caught up in religion and place their own idologies upon the religion; as well as place their own governance, which I'm not for. I haven't been to church in a while, and it's mostly due to me not feeling satisfied when I depart. I think the organized religion within the church (and others) has taken things in the wrong direction; the objective isn't focused on the spiritual health anymore, in addition to having false prophets and or/hypocritical leaders in the church.
I could never be agnostic, atheist, etc., for my relationship with God is alive...I've seen it, felt it, and experienced it. I don't call myself a Christian...I think that is just a way to label yourself. I'm a child of God who believes in the core principles of Christ (although I fall short of the glory time to time). Yes, I read the Bible, but I do know the Book has been tampered with, such as there are missing information from it. I don't doubt the validity of other religions,so I have no problem co-existing with others...besides, it's not my place to judge others, nor is it my place to force my beliefs on others...I feel like God will intervene in their life, just like He did with me.
Belief in God is not an exercise in science, or logical argument, its an exercise in faith.
That said a spiritual journey is personal. I don't judge you. Belive me I have spent more time in church, choir rehearsal, bible study than most and have questioned too.
Still there are things that happen when I pray that have no scientific explanation. It's not coincidence and I can be pretty skeptical. I just believe.
I love reading your honest heartfelt posts, BTW.
im kidn of this way. ive never been the jesus freak type and no offense to the ones who are, but im just @ a crossroads w/ religion , esp in the black race and how it effects our behavior. there is this 'so called belief" that if there is something wrong w/ you (i.e: suffering from depression, being gay, etc) its because you A: dont read your bible or B: you dont belive in god. i come from a family in which before my mom got married, she didn't go to church as much after her mom died (believed it was god's fault) but now she acts holier than thou, always bringing others down, blaming them for their actions because they did not read the bible.
or that christianty is the only right religion and that anything else (hindu,buddist, etc) is wrong or satanic. thats pure bullshit
im sorry, but im not about to let some book dictate my life, especially a book written by man that we are supposed to belive that it is from the word of god. i dont think that im athiest (and no where near satanisim) but im along the lines between athiesim and agnostic. needless to say im the black sheep of the familly because i just dont care for christianity.
Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis? Deals with Agnosticism, atheism, and Chirstianity, in a Scientific, logic based way. You may find it interesting.
I find it dissapointing when anyone joins or leaves a church for sociological reasons. I do not think you can judge a religion by your perception of it's members without really understanding the doctrines and principles the organization is founded on.
I would not become a Democrat or Republican based on the people I know who are part of either party, but on the policy or principles espoused by the organization itself.
In my experiance, people will let you down. Good and even Great people will let you down if you rely on them alone. this is not to say people are bad, or to generate a general negative view of others, but when it comes to religions, or organizations centered on a higher power or deity, I say the fair thing to do is make your judgments based on that diety and what is said to be the diety's teaching... or even rules, and not by how well the mortals follow said teachings.
The funny thing about that Rev. X character is that I was trying to figure out what book he was reading from. I can only imagine what was going through the minds of the camera people and studio people when that was filmed. I can only imagine what their dinner table conversation was like about that day.
Hi Casper,
Sorry I didn't read your post!
Yes, tithe is suppose to come right back at you in 10 folds.
I tithed a whole bunch and ...let's just say I don't work and I can't complain. But its not something to go around spreading, I fear:
I once tried to tell folks that and got laughed off a blog. When people can hear it, they will hear it.
OK In regards to the tithing thing, I want to know how many pastors of the church are descendants of Levites. I also want to know why I would adhere to the 10% tithe for Levites in this day and age, since we don't really know who is and who isn't. I also want to know why Christians apply the 10% suggested to be given to the Levites as a the recommended minimum that was suggested, not commanded by Paul in Corinthians? James basically said give what you feel in your heart it is ok to give. I understand the Jewish concept of tithing, especially those in Israel, as they acknowledge and observe the Old Testament, but not the new, but what about those who observe and worship from both the New and the Old?
How did we go from that to Jan Crouch telling folks to give their grocery money for blessings and that if you don't tithe you are robbing God?
im kidn of this way. ive never been the jesus freak type and no offense to the ones who are, but im just @ a crossroads w/ religion , esp in the black race and how it effects our behavior. there is this 'so called belief" that if there is something wrong w/ you (i.e: suffering from depression, being gay, etc) its because you A: dont read your bible or B: you dont belive in god. i come from a family in which before my mom got married, she didn't go to church as much after her mom died (believed it was god's fault) but now she acts holier than thou, always bringing others down, blaming them for their actions because they did not read the bible.
I so agree, I have a hard time of the role of the church in black people's lives. It shocks me regardless of what the church says, what is the point of telling someone mental illness is something they bought on themselves.
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Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis? Deals with Agnosticism, atheism, and Chirstianity, in a Scientific, logic based way. You may find it interesting.
I love C.S. Lewis, but I know that book probably wouldn't be fair and balanced because that point in his life he had become born again.
I find it dissapointing when anyone joins or leaves a church for sociological reasons. I do not think you can judge a religion by your perception of it's members without really understanding the doctrines and principles the organization is founded on.
I am not using the members as a reason for leaving the church, I am left because I don't agree with the tenets of the book, and to me many times the Bible contradicts itself, I also don't find the need to be involved in a religion simply because I was born into it. I just am happy in saying I don't know the answer, if God exists or if he doesn't, and if he does, what does he really want from people.
I would not become a Democrat or Republican based on the people I know who are part of either party, but on the policy or principles espoused by the organization itself.
I agree
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The funny thing about that Rev. X character is that I was trying to figure out what book he was reading from. I can only imagine what was going through the minds of the camera people and studio people when that was filmed. I can only imagine what their dinner table conversation was like about that day.
Someone once said it was the phone book he was reading from. Apparently he started working on his own writings and is reading from that book, but sometimes he just uses Tupac, Biggie, and Bone Thugs LOL
i am a Christian, and while i don't understand where alot of particular views on religion come from (i.e. if you don't tithe you're going to hell or are a bad person), i do understand why questions are asked and the search for answers.
Kudos to you for standing up for your irreligious convictions and for your dignity as a black woman. I'm all for interracial relationships, dark skin, natural hair, and above all, a voluptuous intellect.
Siditty, I know this post is old, but I wanted to say how awesome it feels to finally hear another Black freethinker come out the surface. Glad to know I'm not the only one who is incredibly sick of Christian fundamentlism. Including that hypocrite Ted Haggard.
Here's a Youtube link about an atheist convention that happened in VA. With an ATHEIST rapper too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixi7kVvb9Ps
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