It's obvious that this girl has an issue or shall I say, a personal probelm. I watched the video by "mulatto diaries," and I saw nothing wrong with what she said. All she was saying, in essence, was that she is proud of who she is. So what if she said, "I'm proud to be white." Get over it! If you ask me, I'm proud to be white, black, and native american, for they all come together and make this wonderful being *smile*.
OK I get the jist of what she is saying. Whenever I hear "white pride" I always associate it with the KKK members or Aryan Nation type folks. Thanks Jerry Springer. When these folks say "white pride" it usually is in conjunction with insulting or showing hate for those who don't fall into the category of white.
The phrase at times has a negative connotation due to these fools being the vocal minority who loves to use it, making those who don't share their beliefs nervous to vocalize them. I say people should have pride and we do to a certain extent celebrate that pride.
I have no problems with people celebrating Irish American Heritage Month or German American Day, or General Pulaski Memorial Day. I think people should embrace their heritage, but at times because of the negative connotations that the phrase "White Pride" brings to the mind, it becomes a dangerous phrase and can incite anger and bring to mind the benefits of white privilege.
I understand the concept of "black pride" for years before the civil rights movement, it was seen as a negative to be black in this country, we needed that boost of self esteem, to let us know that we were indeed something to be proud of, not something to be ashamed of like others had and continue to make us think we should feel.
Whereas it has never really been seen as a negative trait to be seen as white to move ahead in this country, so do white people need that same boost? I think that is the issue she is raising.
Either or, I say people show their pride, but please don't insult and stereotype a whole different group to prove your "pride".
I definitely saw your larger point that you're making.
In my opinion, I can't be proud of something I had no choice in. A skin color is simply a skin color and too many people like the KKK place too much emphasis on their skin color and their supposed superiority.
By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd.
You know what I really hate is when some folks say "if black folks can have black pride, what can't we have white pride?" I always say Black pride was created in response to White supremacy and denigration of African descended peoples.
@Acting Drama, I like beautifully conjured up happen to agree there was nothing remotely klanish about her pride in being white.
IMHO I am seeing more mixed and all white people expressing their pride in who they are. There is nothing wrong with that. Culturally we are slowly shifting to a more central society.
No I don't think ethnic beauty we truly be recognized for what it is for about another 40 to 50 years but we (Black community) have made significant improvements.
I personally have no problem with people expressing pride in their race as long as it does not boil down to exclusion.
@Siditty
"Either or, I say people show their pride, but please don't insult and stereotype a whole different group to prove your "pride"."
This is exactly what a LOT of White people think when Black people walk around referring to Black pride they automatically think of Black Panthers. So what do you say to White people who might feel the way you feel about that White pride having negative connotations, some feel the same about black pride?
Many white people struggle with this. Families like mine, who are white and the most recent immigrant on either side was 1830 something, don't have a group to belong to. As a member of the majority it appears as if you have nothing with which to relate to others around. You think you have no special holiday, no symbol, no cultural characteristics with which to form a group (foods, dances, music, etc.)nothing to set you apart and make you special. All that binds you with others, or basis on which to relate, is the mainstream and the mainstream is boring.
Many in this situation grasp at reactionary measures, taking pride in skin color, just like others. It is misguided and quite likely tinged with a form of racism but not automatically sinister.
These people are unaware of their American ness which is a fine enough group to be proud of. But of course most of theses other groups are also American and most assuredly you are NOT part of that group, even if you wanted to be ...sorry "deuce".
Those who pride themselves in whiteness are mostly lonely folks searching for an identity who should be educated and nurtured or at worst, pitied.
What should be remembered is that white carries no real culture. Now while my family does have characteristics that differ from my black wife’s family; most of these can be traced to my original English, than American western norms, not my skin. My wife’s skin was forced into a culture.
Any white person complaining about why they can’t have skin color pride should be reminded of theses things, first gently, than possibly followed with a stomp on their white laced boots.
I always say Black pride was created in response to White supremacy and denigration of African descended peoples.
Bingo!!!! There was never black supremacy in America, so there really was never a need to boost pride or awareness of pride or culture in white people so that they could feel better about themselves.
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This is exactly what a LOT of White people think when Black people walk around referring to Black pride they automatically think of Black Panthers. So what do you say to White people who might feel the way you feel about that White pride having negative connotations, some feel the same about black pride?
The same thing I do when they complain about Affirmative Action and any other thing they think gives black people free handouts. Our history isn't shared, and there is a need for us to have pride. I love Kat's response. Blacks and whites aren't considered equal in this country. The dominant culture has never been slaves or never been told they weren't good enough to eat, drink, or attend parks and schools with the others based upon race. Black people have. There was never a mentality in the black community to say that if you mixed with white people your children would come our deformed or less intelligent. White people make assumptions about me all of the time, from my income, to how I talk, to my interests, and if I have kids based upon my skin color. This is just another assumption and I can't convert them all. Like I said before I have no problems with people celebrating their culture. But one thing many white people assume is that American culture is their culture, and that black people aren't part of it, so it is almost as if you have to celebrate your own, otherwise you are expected to assimilate, and you know that many blacks would refuse to, and many whites wouldn't accept it.
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Many in this situation grasp at reactionary measures, taking pride in skin color, just like others. It is misguided and quite likely tinged with a form of racism but not automatically sinister.
Great point. I don't think all who celebrate their whiteness are in the KKK or Aryan nation, I do however think like you it is reactionary to seeing other groups celebrate. They forget though prior to slavery many blacks have no idea what their "culture" is, so all we have to bring us together is a shared skin color in many cases.
What should be remembered is that white carries no real culture. Now while my family does have characteristics that differ from my black wife’s family; most of these can be traced to my original English, than American western norms, not my skin. My wife’s skin was forced into a culture.
Yeah I accidentally rejected this comment. I apologize Moviegirl
Moviegirl has left a new comment on your post "White Pride......Your Thoughts?":
I hope that this doesn't sound too harsh but Jazzy and Beautifully.conjured up should do some "book learning" before they make statements. Try Tim Wise first (author of White Like Me) and then move to more academic prose by Kimberly Crenshaw and Bell Hooks. It doesn't surprise me though; let me guess, you were born in the 80s and 90s.
Also, see responses to earlier post by Sidity on this same topic.
As America has become more diverse people have grouped more and more under ethnic or racial labels. When Europeans came here they were English, French, German etc until they came across groups much more dissimilar to them. You see this on the west coast all the time. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. who come from different cultures in Asia mostly readily adapt to the term Asian in this country.
As a member of the majority it appears as if you have nothing with which to relate to others around. You think you have no special holiday, no symbol, no cultural characteristics with which to form a group (foods, dances, music, etc.)nothing to set you apart and make you special. All that binds you with others, or basis on which to relate, is the mainstream and the mainstream is boring. ****************
Isn't that a form of white privilege to feel so mainstream? ----
These people are unaware of their American ness which is a fine enough group to be proud of. ***** The problem is American culture has been so commericalized and commodified, that it has lost its meaning. Our Holidays are now days to shop and not reflect. There isn't anything in America that seems genuine so too many people romanticize their grandparents' culture, wishing for the old ways. ------
As America has become more diverse people have grouped more and more under ethnic or racial labels... You see this on the west coast all the time. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. who come from different cultures in Asia mostly readily adapt to the term Asian in this country. ******
Sigh, I don't think this is good thing at all. Folks often lose their distinct cultural identity when people are grouped under a racial label(white, black, asian) and later generations end up clamoring in misguided attempts for remnants of their past culture which is why so-called white pride can be appealing to some people.
Sigh, I don't think this is good thing at all. Folks often lose their distinct cultural identity when people are grouped under a racial label(white, black, asian) and later generations end up clamoring in misguided attempts for remnants of their past culture which is why so-called white pride can be appealing to some people.
I think we can look upon these as alliances. People are worried or unsure of people and cultures the most foreign to them so they group under the most familiar for numbers. People lose their original cultural identity and there is no American identity to replace it, except consumerism. Prosperity is what keeps America going and not a shared race or culture, which is ultimately a recipe for balkanization, see Yugoslavia.
Normally I wouldn't go further into this, but since I'm having a good day, I guess I will entertain "Moviegirl" for a minute, and maybe Jazzy can agree:
As stated before, I don't find anything wrong with what the girl was saying in "mulatto diaries," for I find having pride in self is something more people need to have. Unlike others, I wasn't offended by what she said; I'm very secure in myself to not be agitated with ideologies that represent one's truth. Yes, I'm very aware of the history behind the genesis of Black Pride, and the validation of such. However, we as a society tend to place our own connotations to words or phrases. It's obvious that the phrase "White Pride" has elicited a negative emotion in some people...maybe due to the connotation to the phrase; a connotation that represents negativity, harm, encumbrance, etc. This emotion is also elicited when other people hear the phrase "Black Power." Either way, society has made that happen, and it thrives, unfortunately. As someone who comes from a diverse family filled with various races, cultures, Republicans, Democrats, and even a parent who is an ex Black Panther, I'm always coming in contact with people who are different, yet find a way to respectfully come together and build together with dignity and pride...the same things that "mulatto diaries" was saying that she is now finding within herself, and I find it to be beautiful.
**I learned that from the book of My Life, written by The Creator, edited by civilization...a lesson that knows no age limits, just innate abilities to reconize the reality.
@ Moviegirl No offense taken. Yes, I was born in 1980. My reality will not be the same as that of my mother’s regarding race. I am aware that racism, discrimination and white privilege exists I deal with one to all three on a weekly basis in my chosen field. However, I do not think that because our Black Pride was due to reactionary circumstances that White people should not be proud of their own. All white people in this country can trace their history to some somewhere else. Why is that people assume or even White people agree that they have no culture, because their skin is white. This is absurd. Ethnicity is but one facet of culture, and not the sole defining definition.
@Siditty I agree with your position on Affirmative Action and the explanation given. However, White pride and White Privilege are not synonymous. White privilege enables people to advance solely because they are part of a dominate culture and Affrimative Action is a counter to this. White pride and Black pride and Asian Pride are just ways of demonstrating pride in who you are. And more importantly NO ONE RACE has a lock down on being proud of who they are.
@beautifully. Conjured **I learned that from the book of My Life, written by The Creator, edited by civilization...a lesson that knows no age limits, just innate abilities to reconize the reality.”
All white people in this country can trace their history to some somewhere else. ************
That's exactly the point... there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible but why do some people place so much emphasis on their skin color which is exactly what white pride does.
The white race was created to gain control over two populations, european ethnics who were indentured servants and african indentured servants and slaves. It's a beautifully conjured up lie. I have no problem with someone who is proud to be Irish and whose family has overcome many of the obstacles that the Irish faced not only here but specficially in their own homeland where the British government were most happy to let them starve during the famine by feeding rancid meat. That's something different than white pride. Ever notice that most Europeans (or maybe it's just the educated ones that I met in graduate school) say they are not white. It's an American/Australian phemonon.
As an aside I would be weary of someone who describes themselves as a mulatto which literally translate to "little mule."
I would copy and paste the article but I don't think that Sid would like that. So here's a link to really great article by Tim Wise (an anti-racist writer): http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whitepride.html
“there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible” This goes back to perception and individual idealism for me my black skin color regardless of the historically background is enough for me to find pride in. I’m always leery about people that are quick to discard some one else’s view as intangible because they are unable to see their viewpoint or try to understand their perspective. The ability to be prideful in a person’s skin color may be an intangible for you does not make it less of a reality for that other individual. Skin color is real it is not the same as philosophizing over is something honorable or virtuous, those are intangible items.
(Lord who knew the day would come when I would actually be defending White people).
@Moviegirl
The Irish of America have integrated and become Americanized, they may still be prideful in being Irish however, most of them have lost their distinguishable accents over time and also benefit greatly in this country from white privilege. So are you saying in this case it is ok to benefit from white privilege and be prideful that white skin color you have also makes you Irish with some cultural idiosyncrasies, surely not. Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that.
Jazzy, Surely you didn't read in my post that it was ok to take pride in white privilege or white skin. That's ok, one philosophy class would clear up your fallacious thinking.
Read the article in the link that I posted. It's apropos. I would like to know your thoughts on it.
The white race wasn't created...it evolved, just like any other race from the first known man and woman in Africa. As evolution proceeded,so did the ideologies of class, intelligence, and prevalence that was labeled upon races via trials and tribulations among these nations. You can read more into this via readings such as The Mismeasure of Man; The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey; and Disseminating Darwinism: The Role of Place, Race,Religion, and Gender.
*A beautifully.conjured.up lie*=you lost me on that one? I don't understand what you was trying to say.
Once again, there isn't anything wrong with being prideful; if anyone bothered by someone doing so, then that's a personal problem. I could possibly understand your position if the woman said, "I'm white, so I'm right," or something to that effect but she didn't. All she said was, she is proud of who she is.
No, I don't feel as though I should be weary about someone who chooses to call themselves or refer to themselves as a "mulatto." Mulatto has many meanings, just like Creole which most people know it as a person of mixed ancestry (Spanish, West Indies, etc.), but it also means "house nigger" [from Port. crioulo, dim. of cria "person (especially a servant) raised in one's house,"]. Or like the word "Black," which can be translated to mean "dirty/soiled with dirt/ignorant/hostile/evil." Are you ashamed to be called Black? Do you think you are a dirty, soiled with dirt, ignorant hostile, evil woman? I hope not. My family comes from Creole descendants, so should we not be prideful of our ancestry because the word is also known to mean "house nigger?" Of course not...try going to any Creole and tell them to be ashamed of who they are, and see what happens. As a descendant, I'm proud of who I am. I may not be prideful of the harsh conditions and antics my Black and Native American ancestors had to go through, but I represent them...even my White/Spanish ancestors. Am I to hold my head down in shame? No. Am I to neglect to inform my future children and grandchildren about their ancestory and history because it involves a word that meant "house nigger?" No. I may not be walking around here announcing my heritage, but know that I'm proud of who I am and every race/culture that came together to make me...just like the woman being proud of who she is.
****Note Bene: I'm done with this discussion. I have a research article to work on. It was fun though *smile*.
There is no need to talk about white pride when we see it expressed damn near everywhere. We learn white history in school, the white woman is the international standard of beauty, the white man is the international standard of power. Whites have white privilege so why a call for white pride? When your people are in power and respected everywhere, there is no need to attempt to instill a sense of pride -- I don't see any white people walking around feeling less than human because they are white. In the bigger scheme of things, we see the effects of white pride and can therefore conclude that it exists. Verbalizing it would be arrogant and unnecessary. Noting wrong with a biracial person being proud of all of their heritage however. If that biracial woman is proud to be white and black, then good for her.
Moviegirl “Surely you didn't read in my post that it was ok to take pride in white privilege or white skin. That's ok, one philosophy class would clear up your fallacious thinking.”
No, I did not next time I will insert a sarcasm comment for you.
Now to discuss your linked article I will frame the discussion by sub-headings used in the article
“Reverse Racism Ruse”
I agree with everything written under this sub-heading.
“White bonding as a dangerous distraction”
Under this sub-heading I have read many of these same arguments and facts in my research regarding colorism in America. So again I agree with the content
“White Bonding and the continued conning of the working class”
Agree again. My only other statement regarding white people who would rather do without than stand with people of color is that this gets them NOWHERE. Their ignorance is their jailer; I nor you should concern yourself with people that are unwilling to aid in their own betterment by believing that because of their race they are superior.
“Conclusion: White solidarity illogical and hurtful for all.”
The problem I had with Wise’s ending is that you and he automatically assume that a White pride group will be exclusive. There was never an organization I was a member of Black expression, Indian Cultural Association, Student Board, etc. that was solely exclusive. This is what I will continue to state. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being prideful for any race of people as long as if does not border on exclusivity. For you to say that mulatto girl or any white person should not have pride in who they are is discriminatory. Moviegirl I am done discussing this on Siditty’s blog if you would like to continue to enlighten me then do so at jazzysaidso@live.com.
Also Moviegirl your response to Beautifully conjured was unnecessary there is never a reason when a person can not be respectful or courtesy when disagreeing.
When a bi-racial person says it , its better then a white person i guess..and i saw the video and she explained herself very well but understand the other girls pain though...
Jazzy, I have neither the patience nor the time to indulge the masses. I am rude and unapologetic about it. I'm also pretty damned funny.
The post directed at me was full of faulty premises, illogical conclusions and a couple of strawmans for good measure.
Just because it's someone's opinion doesn't mean that I have to respect it. I can't be courteous of something I find abhorrent and illogical.
Maybe that's why it's a good thing I didn't go into the teaching profession. I would have gladly told students to put down the pipe and get out of the classroom.
There a new topic this morning. I hope I don't find someone who agrees with drug addicted Rush. TTFN
I think the issue White Pride is a result of white privilege. White people are offended that it appears blacks can have pride, but whites cannot. Even if it isn't explicitly stated as white pride, white pride does exist. When it is explicitly stated, historically it has been in the context of belittling or proving "superiority" over another group, and that is where things get tricky.
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That's exactly the point... there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible but why do some people place so much emphasis on their skin color which is exactly what white pride does. Pride in Skin color vs. Pride in Real Culture.
I agree Kat. With race relations being what they were and are in this country, if this society is truly to get past race, we need to focus on something else. There isn't in my mind a "white culture" as it is mainstreamed into being "American Culture" and everything else is "other".
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I would copy and paste the article but I don't think that Sid would like that. So here's a link to really great article by Tim Wise (an anti-racist writer):
Moviegirl, great Tim Wise article. I love his work!!!
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Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that
So why doesn't America do that instead of focus on race. Shouldn't we be more concerned about social status and class rather than skin color?
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In terms of the term Creole, depending on where you are from, it has different meanings. My mother's side of the family is Creole, and it has never meant "house nigger" in context to the Louisiana Creole societies.
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hey you guys, I know I am late on this, but can we be nice. I like all of you guys, and think everyone has great points to make.
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There is no need to talk about white pride when we see it expressed damn near everywhere. We learn white history in school, the white woman is the international standard of beauty, the white man is the international standard of power. Whites have white privilege so why a call for white pride? When your people are in power and respected everywhere, there is no need to attempt to instill a sense of pride
I guess that is my point, but then does that make us less empathetic to other cultures for feeling this way?
I see nothing wrong with some white people being proud of their heritage, just like some black people are proud of their heritage..... AS LONG AS THEY DONT DEMEAN OTHER CULTURES/HERITAGES IN THE PROCESS (this goes for all races). The biracial girl mentioned in the video has the right to be proud of her white and black heritages, because that is who she is.
"I guess that is my point, but then does that make us less empathetic to other cultures for feeling this way?"
I don't think that it does but what people fail to understand is that blacks are UNIVERSALLY disliked, in general. So for blacks, a sense of pride is necessary when you are considered less than by every single race of people, including your own at times.
I don't think that it does but what people fail to understand is that blacks are UNIVERSALLY disliked, in general. So for blacks, a sense of pride is necessary when you are considered less than by every single race of people, including your own at times.
Very true, it almost makes the concept of black pride a neccessity, not option, otherwise people will suffer from more self hate.
"By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd".
Exactly! Pride out of one's hue is disaster as we have seen it played out. It is superficial and an already open can of worms. Whiteness is not a real identiy.
Its a superficial one built upon the oppression of those that are darker. Plain and simple. White people still have their European identities. They were never stripped away by anyone. Most simply traded them in for the skin color "white" identity. And now you are having Arabs and others trading in their cultures for the same white identity.
Black people on the other hand, had their identiy stripped and thrown to the wind. So there is nothing else to identify as except for black which later came to be African Americans.
There is alot wrong with white pride. Most whites do know their cultural heritages, why they would prefer the color identity to me is mind boggling. If a white person claims to be of French, English, Scottish heritages, even German, there is nothing wrong with that at all.
"Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that"
Don't forget that in America White skin color is synonymous with oppression of the dark skinned. So Pride in that skin color means the degradation of those with darker skin.
I would like someone to convince me that they can be proud in being white just because of its physicalities and not the historical buggage that comes with it. If one can separate those two, them being proud in the skin color by itself is fine just like I absolutely adore my own black skin.
"By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd".
People tried that in the 19th and 20th century here and it didn't work. Ethnic gangs fought each other in brutal pitch battles and groups chose to hang on to their nationalist beliefs and refuse to assimilate.
People tried that in the 19th and 20th century here and it didn't work. Ethnic gangs fought each other in brutal pitch battles and groups chose to hang on to their nationalist beliefs and refuse to assimilate
What do you think will happen if people tried to go back to that mentality of ethnicity vs. skin color?
What do you think will happen if people tried to go back to that mentality of ethnicity vs. skin color?
Do you mean people embracing ethnic heritage like Mexican Americans, English Americans etc? Well, intercultural marriages would be rare, tribalism would probably set in even harder and national unity would be a rare commodity.
Do you mean people embracing ethnic heritage like Mexican Americans, English Americans etc? Well, intercultural marriages would be rare, tribalism would probably set in even harder and national unity would be a rare commodity.
But are we unified now? I don't think so, it is just based upon skin color rather than ethnicity.
BTW, I finally saw Biracial Tiffany of Mulatto Diaries courtesy of Macon D and honestly, she couldn't articulate her feelings in a very convincing way. I think she has a lot of confusion about who she is and that probably has a lot to do with not knowing much of american history. She really needs to sit down and really think about what she is saying because nothing but drivel came across on the first three minutes of her video. The other 6 minutes seemed to contradict, albeit in a small way, what she was saying in the first 3. I think she has something to say but she needs to do a little more critical thinking first.
But are we unified now? I don't think so, it is just based upon skin color rather than ethnicity.
You are right it is, but what can unify a multiracial country? Especially when are prime competitors for super power status are much more of a monoculture? i.e. Russian and China?
You are right it is, but what can unify a multiracial country? Especially when are prime competitors for super power status are much more of a monoculture? i.e. Russian and China?
I guess we need to unify for greed so we can maintain the super power status.
^^^ saw this over at Field Negro's and I think it did a better job of explaining the views of moviegirl and Kat to a point where I understood the prespective.
43 comments:
As my Grandmama says she talkin' out both sides of her neck.
It's obvious that this girl has an issue or shall I say, a personal probelm. I watched the video by "mulatto diaries," and I saw nothing wrong with what she said. All she was saying, in essence, was that she is proud of who she is. So what if she said, "I'm proud to be white." Get over it! If you ask me, I'm proud to be white, black, and native american, for they all come together and make this wonderful being *smile*.
I was making an observation and posing the question to the viewers.
Obviously you didn't get what I was saying.
And no Jazzy I wasn't talking out of both sides of my neck.
OK I get the jist of what she is saying. Whenever I hear "white pride" I always associate it with the KKK members or Aryan Nation type folks. Thanks Jerry Springer. When these folks say "white pride" it usually is in conjunction with insulting or showing hate for those who don't fall into the category of white.
The phrase at times has a negative connotation due to these fools being the vocal minority who loves to use it, making those who don't share their beliefs nervous to vocalize them. I say people should have pride and we do to a certain extent celebrate that pride.
I have no problems with people celebrating Irish American Heritage Month or German American Day, or General Pulaski Memorial Day. I think people should embrace their heritage, but at times because of the negative connotations that the phrase "White Pride" brings to the mind, it becomes a dangerous phrase and can incite anger and bring to mind the benefits of white privilege.
I understand the concept of "black pride" for years before the civil rights movement, it was seen as a negative to be black in this country, we needed that boost of self esteem, to let us know that we were indeed something to be proud of, not something to be ashamed of like others had and continue to make us think we should feel.
Whereas it has never really been seen as a negative trait to be seen as white to move ahead in this country, so do white people need that same boost? I think that is the issue she is raising.
Either or, I say people show their pride, but please don't insult and stereotype a whole different group to prove your "pride".
THANK YOU Siditty. That is what I was trying to say. I guess I wasn't clear enough.
@acting drama
I definitely saw your larger point that you're making.
In my opinion, I can't be proud of something I had no choice in. A skin color is simply a skin color and too many people like the KKK place too much emphasis on their skin color and their supposed superiority.
By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd.
You know what I really hate is when some folks say "if black folks can have black pride, what can't we have white pride?"
I always say Black pride was created in response to White supremacy and denigration of African descended peoples.
@Acting Drama, I like beautifully conjured up happen to agree there was nothing remotely klanish about her pride in being white.
IMHO I am seeing more mixed and all white people expressing their pride in who they are. There is nothing wrong with that. Culturally we are slowly shifting to a more central society.
No I don't think ethnic beauty we truly be recognized for what it is for about another 40 to 50 years but we (Black community) have made significant improvements.
I personally have no problem with people expressing pride in their race as long as it does not boil down to exclusion.
@Siditty
"Either or, I say people show their pride, but please don't insult and stereotype a whole different group to prove your "pride"."
This is exactly what a LOT of White people think when Black people walk around referring to Black pride they automatically think of Black Panthers. So what do you say to White people who might feel the way you feel about that White pride having negative connotations, some feel the same about black pride?
Many white people struggle with this.
Families like mine, who are white and the most recent immigrant on either side was 1830 something, don't have a group to belong to.
As a member of the majority it appears as if you have nothing with which to relate to others around. You think you have no special holiday, no symbol, no cultural characteristics with which to form a group (foods, dances, music, etc.)nothing to set you apart and make you special. All that binds you with others, or basis on which to relate, is the mainstream and the mainstream is boring.
Many in this situation grasp at reactionary measures, taking pride in skin color, just like others. It is misguided and quite likely tinged with a form of racism but not automatically sinister.
These people are unaware of their American ness which is a fine enough group to be proud of. But of course most of theses other groups are also American and most assuredly you are NOT part of that group, even if you wanted to be ...sorry "deuce".
Those who pride themselves in whiteness are mostly lonely folks searching for an identity who should be educated and nurtured or at worst, pitied.
What should be remembered is that white carries no real culture. Now while my family does have characteristics that differ from my black wife’s family; most of these can be traced to my original English, than American western norms, not my skin. My wife’s skin was forced into a culture.
Any white person complaining about why they can’t have skin color pride should be reminded of theses things, first gently, than possibly followed with a stomp on their white laced boots.
I always say Black pride was created in response to White supremacy and denigration of African descended peoples.
Bingo!!!! There was never black supremacy in America, so there really was never a need to boost pride or awareness of pride or culture in white people so that they could feel better about themselves.
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This is exactly what a LOT of White people think when Black people walk around referring to Black pride they automatically think of Black Panthers. So what do you say to White people who might feel the way you feel about that White pride having negative connotations, some feel the same about black pride?
The same thing I do when they complain about Affirmative Action and any other thing they think gives black people free handouts. Our history isn't shared, and there is a need for us to have pride. I love Kat's response. Blacks and whites aren't considered equal in this country. The dominant culture has never been slaves or never been told they weren't good enough to eat, drink, or attend parks and schools with the others based upon race. Black people have. There was never a mentality in the black community to say that if you mixed with white people your children would come our deformed or less intelligent. White people make assumptions about me all of the time, from my income, to how I talk, to my interests, and if I have kids based upon my skin color. This is just another assumption and I can't convert them all. Like I said before I have no problems with people celebrating their culture. But one thing many white people assume is that American culture is their culture, and that black people aren't part of it, so it is almost as if you have to celebrate your own, otherwise you are expected to assimilate, and you know that many blacks would refuse to, and many whites wouldn't accept it.
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Many in this situation grasp at reactionary measures, taking pride in skin color, just like others. It is misguided and quite likely tinged with a form of racism but not automatically sinister.
Great point. I don't think all who celebrate their whiteness are in the KKK or Aryan nation, I do however think like you it is reactionary to seeing other groups celebrate. They forget though prior to slavery many blacks have no idea what their "culture" is, so all we have to bring us together is a shared skin color in many cases.
What should be remembered is that white carries no real culture. Now while my family does have characteristics that differ from my black wife’s family; most of these can be traced to my original English, than American western norms, not my skin. My wife’s skin was forced into a culture.
Exactly!!!!!!
Yeah I accidentally rejected this comment. I apologize Moviegirl
Moviegirl has left a new comment on your post "White Pride......Your Thoughts?":
I hope that this doesn't sound too harsh but Jazzy and Beautifully.conjured up should do some "book learning" before they make statements. Try Tim Wise first (author of White Like Me) and then move to more academic prose by Kimberly Crenshaw and Bell Hooks. It doesn't surprise me though; let me guess, you were born in the 80s and 90s.
Also, see responses to earlier post by Sidity on this same topic.
As America has become more diverse people have grouped more and more under ethnic or racial labels. When Europeans came here they were English, French, German etc until they came across groups much more dissimilar to them. You see this on the west coast all the time. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. who come from different cultures in Asia mostly readily adapt to the term Asian in this country.
As a member of the majority it appears as if you have nothing with which to relate to others around. You think you have no special holiday, no symbol, no cultural characteristics with which to form a group (foods, dances, music, etc.)nothing to set you apart and make you special. All that binds you with others, or basis on which to relate, is the mainstream and the mainstream is boring.
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Isn't that a form of white privilege to feel so mainstream?
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These people are unaware of their American ness which is a fine enough group to be proud of.
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The problem is American culture has been so commericalized and commodified, that it has lost its meaning. Our Holidays are now days to shop and not reflect. There isn't anything in America that seems genuine so too many people romanticize their grandparents' culture, wishing for the old ways.
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As America has become more diverse people have grouped more and more under ethnic or racial labels... You see this on the west coast all the time. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. who come from different cultures in Asia mostly readily adapt to the term Asian in this country.
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Sigh, I don't think this is good thing at all. Folks often lose their distinct cultural identity when people are grouped under a racial label(white, black, asian) and later generations end up clamoring in misguided attempts for remnants of their past culture which is why so-called white pride can be appealing to some people.
Sigh, I don't think this is good thing at all. Folks often lose their distinct cultural identity when people are grouped under a racial label(white, black, asian) and later generations end up clamoring in misguided attempts for remnants of their past culture which is why so-called white pride can be appealing to some people.
I think we can look upon these as alliances. People are worried or unsure of people and cultures the most foreign to them so they group under the most familiar for numbers. People lose their original cultural identity and there is no American identity to replace it, except consumerism. Prosperity is what keeps America going and not a shared race or culture, which is ultimately a recipe for balkanization, see Yugoslavia.
People lose their original cultural identity and there is no American identity to replace it, except consumerism.
*******
That's the root of the problem.
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Prosperity is what keeps America going and not a shared race or culture, which is ultimately a recipe for balkanization, see Yugoslavia.
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Which is why in this economic downturn, I fear people might turn against each other.
Normally I wouldn't go further into this, but since I'm having a good day, I guess I will entertain "Moviegirl" for a minute, and maybe Jazzy can agree:
As stated before, I don't find anything wrong with what the girl was saying in "mulatto diaries," for I find having pride in self is something more people need to have. Unlike others, I wasn't offended by what she said; I'm very secure in myself to not be agitated with ideologies that represent one's truth. Yes, I'm very aware of the history behind the genesis of Black Pride, and the validation of such. However, we as a society tend to place our own connotations to words or phrases. It's obvious that the phrase "White Pride" has elicited a negative emotion in some people...maybe due to the connotation to the phrase; a connotation that represents negativity, harm, encumbrance, etc. This emotion is also elicited when other people hear the phrase "Black Power." Either way, society has made that happen, and it thrives, unfortunately. As someone who comes from a diverse family filled with various races, cultures, Republicans, Democrats, and even a parent who is an ex Black Panther, I'm always coming in contact with people who are different, yet find a way to respectfully come together and build together with dignity and pride...the same things that "mulatto diaries" was saying that she is now finding within herself, and I find it to be beautiful.
**I learned that from the book of My Life, written by The Creator, edited by civilization...a lesson that knows no age limits, just innate abilities to reconize the reality.
@ Moviegirl No offense taken. Yes, I was born in 1980. My reality will not be the same as that of my mother’s regarding race. I am aware that racism, discrimination and white privilege exists I deal with one to all three on a weekly basis in my chosen field. However, I do not think that because our Black Pride was due to reactionary circumstances that White people should not be proud of their own. All white people in this country can trace their history to some somewhere else. Why is that people assume or even White people agree that they have no culture, because their skin is white. This is absurd. Ethnicity is but one facet of culture, and not the sole defining definition.
@Siditty I agree with your position on Affirmative Action and the explanation given. However, White pride and White Privilege are not synonymous. White privilege enables people to advance solely because they are part of a dominate culture and Affrimative Action is a counter to this. White pride and Black pride and Asian Pride are just ways of demonstrating pride in who you are. And more importantly NO ONE RACE has a lock down on being proud of who they are.
@beautifully. Conjured
**I learned that from the book of My Life, written by The Creator, edited by civilization...a lesson that knows no age limits, just innate abilities to reconize the reality.”
Amen! Beautifully stated.
All white people in this country can trace their history to some somewhere else.
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That's exactly the point... there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible but why do some people place so much emphasis on their skin color which is exactly what white pride does.
Pride in Skin color vs. Pride in Real Culture.
Skin Color =/= Culture
The white race was created to gain control over two populations, european ethnics who were indentured servants and african indentured servants and slaves. It's a beautifully conjured up lie. I have no problem with someone who is proud to be Irish and whose family has overcome many of the obstacles that the Irish faced not only here but specficially in their own homeland where the British government were most happy to let them starve during the famine by feeding rancid meat. That's something different than white pride. Ever notice that most Europeans (or maybe it's just the educated ones that I met in graduate school) say they are not white. It's an American/Australian phemonon.
As an aside I would be weary of someone who describes themselves as a mulatto which literally translate to "little mule."
I would copy and paste the article but I don't think that Sid would like that. So here's a link to really great article by Tim Wise (an anti-racist writer):
http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whitepride.html
@kat
“there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible”
This goes back to perception and individual idealism for me my black skin color regardless of the historically background is enough for me to find pride in. I’m always leery about people that are quick to discard some one else’s view as intangible because they are unable to see their viewpoint or try to understand their perspective. The ability to be prideful in a person’s skin color may be an intangible for you does not make it less of a reality for that other individual. Skin color is real it is not the same as philosophizing over is something honorable or virtuous, those are intangible items.
(Lord who knew the day would come when I would actually be defending White people).
@Moviegirl
The Irish of America have integrated and become Americanized, they may still be prideful in being Irish however, most of them have lost their distinguishable accents over time and also benefit greatly in this country from white privilege. So are you saying in this case it is ok to benefit from white privilege and be prideful that white skin color you have also makes you Irish with some cultural idiosyncrasies, surely not.
Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that.
Jazzy,
Surely you didn't read in my post that it was ok to take pride in white privilege or white skin. That's ok, one philosophy class would clear up your fallacious thinking.
Read the article in the link that I posted. It's apropos. I would like to know your thoughts on it.
Moviegirl,
The white race wasn't created...it evolved, just like any other race from the first known man and woman in Africa. As evolution proceeded,so did the ideologies of class, intelligence, and prevalence that was labeled upon races via trials and tribulations among these nations. You can read more into this via readings such as The Mismeasure of Man; The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey; and Disseminating Darwinism: The Role of Place, Race,Religion, and Gender.
*A beautifully.conjured.up lie*=you lost me on that one? I don't understand what you was trying to say.
Once again, there isn't anything wrong with being prideful; if anyone bothered by someone doing so, then that's a personal problem. I could possibly understand your position if the woman said, "I'm white, so I'm right," or something to that effect but she didn't. All she said was, she is proud of who she is.
No, I don't feel as though I should be weary about someone who chooses to call themselves or refer to themselves as a "mulatto." Mulatto has many meanings, just like Creole which most people know it as a person of mixed ancestry (Spanish, West Indies, etc.), but it also means "house nigger" [from Port. crioulo, dim. of cria "person (especially a servant) raised in one's house,"]. Or like the word "Black," which can be translated to mean "dirty/soiled with dirt/ignorant/hostile/evil." Are you ashamed to be called Black? Do you think you are a dirty, soiled with dirt, ignorant hostile, evil woman? I hope not. My family comes from Creole descendants, so should we not be prideful of our ancestry because the word is also known to mean "house nigger?" Of course not...try going to any Creole and tell them to be ashamed of who they are, and see what happens. As a descendant, I'm proud of who I am. I may not be prideful of the harsh conditions and antics my Black and Native American ancestors had to go through, but I represent them...even my White/Spanish ancestors. Am I to hold my head down in shame? No. Am I to neglect to inform my future children and grandchildren about their ancestory and history because it involves a word that meant "house nigger?" No. I may not be walking around here announcing my heritage, but know that I'm proud of who I am and every race/culture that came together to make me...just like the woman being proud of who she is.
****Note Bene: I'm done with this discussion. I have a research article to work on. It was fun though *smile*.
Conjured,
I'm glad you are done because I wasn't even going to attempt to respond to that nonsense. make sure you research that paper thoroughly.
There is no need to talk about white pride when we see it expressed damn near everywhere. We learn white history in school, the white woman is the international standard of beauty, the white man is the international standard of power. Whites have white privilege so why a call for white pride? When your people are in power and respected everywhere, there is no need to attempt to instill a sense of pride -- I don't see any white people walking around feeling less than human because they are white. In the bigger scheme of things, we see the effects of white pride and can therefore conclude that it exists. Verbalizing it would be arrogant and unnecessary. Noting wrong with a biracial person being proud of all of their heritage however. If that biracial woman is proud to be white and black, then good for her.
Moviegirl
“Surely you didn't read in my post that it was ok to take pride in white privilege or white skin. That's ok, one philosophy class would clear up your fallacious thinking.”
No, I did not next time I will insert a sarcasm comment for you.
Now to discuss your linked article I will frame the discussion by sub-headings used in the article
“Reverse Racism Ruse”
I agree with everything written under this sub-heading.
“White bonding as a dangerous distraction”
Under this sub-heading I have read many of these same arguments and facts in my research regarding colorism in America. So again I agree with the content
“White Bonding and the continued conning of the working class”
Agree again. My only other statement regarding white people who would rather do without than stand with people of color is that this gets them NOWHERE. Their ignorance is their jailer; I nor you should concern yourself with people that are unwilling to aid in their own betterment by believing that because of their race they are superior.
“Conclusion: White solidarity illogical and hurtful for all.”
The problem I had with Wise’s ending is that you and he automatically assume that a White pride group will be exclusive. There was never an organization I was a member of Black expression, Indian Cultural Association, Student Board, etc. that was solely exclusive. This is what I will continue to state. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being prideful for any race of people as long as if does not border on exclusivity. For you to say that mulatto girl or any white person should not have pride in who they are is discriminatory. Moviegirl I am done discussing this on Siditty’s blog if you would like to continue to enlighten me then do so at jazzysaidso@live.com.
Also Moviegirl your response to Beautifully conjured was unnecessary there is never a reason when a person can not be respectful or courtesy when disagreeing.
When a bi-racial person says it , its better then a white person i guess..and i saw the video and she explained herself very well but understand the other girls pain though...
Jazzy,
I have neither the patience nor the time to indulge the masses. I am rude and unapologetic about it. I'm also pretty damned funny.
The post directed at me was full of faulty premises, illogical conclusions and a couple of strawmans for good measure.
Just because it's someone's opinion doesn't mean that I have to respect it. I can't be courteous of something I find abhorrent and illogical.
Maybe that's why it's a good thing I didn't go into the teaching profession. I would have gladly told students to put down the pipe and get out of the classroom.
There a new topic this morning. I hope I don't find someone who agrees with drug addicted Rush. TTFN
Jazzy,
I think the issue White Pride is a result of white privilege. White people are offended that it appears blacks can have pride, but whites cannot. Even if it isn't explicitly stated as white pride, white pride does exist. When it is explicitly stated, historically it has been in the context of belittling or proving "superiority" over another group, and that is where things get tricky.
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That's exactly the point... there is nothing wrong with being proud of Ethnic Heritage which is both real and tangible but why do some people place so much emphasis on their skin color which is exactly what white pride does. Pride in Skin color vs. Pride in Real Culture.
I agree Kat. With race relations being what they were and are in this country, if this society is truly to get past race, we need to focus on something else. There isn't in my mind a "white culture" as it is mainstreamed into being "American Culture" and everything else is "other".
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I would copy and paste the article but I don't think that Sid would like that. So here's a link to really great article by Tim Wise (an anti-racist writer):
Moviegirl, great Tim Wise article. I love his work!!!
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Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that
So why doesn't America do that instead of focus on race. Shouldn't we be more concerned about social status and class rather than skin color?
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In terms of the term Creole, depending on where you are from, it has different meanings. My mother's side of the family is Creole, and it has never meant "house nigger" in context to the Louisiana Creole societies.
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hey you guys, I know I am late on this, but can we be nice. I like all of you guys, and think everyone has great points to make.
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There is no need to talk about white pride when we see it expressed damn near everywhere. We learn white history in school, the white woman is the international standard of beauty, the white man is the international standard of power. Whites have white privilege so why a call for white pride? When your people are in power and respected everywhere, there is no need to attempt to instill a sense of pride
I guess that is my point, but then does that make us less empathetic to other cultures for feeling this way?
I see nothing wrong with some white people being proud of their heritage, just like some black people are proud of their heritage..... AS LONG AS THEY DONT DEMEAN OTHER CULTURES/HERITAGES IN THE PROCESS (this goes for all races). The biracial girl mentioned in the video has the right to be proud of her white and black heritages, because that is who she is.
"I guess that is my point, but then does that make us less empathetic to other cultures for feeling this way?"
I don't think that it does but what people fail to understand is that blacks are UNIVERSALLY disliked, in general. So for blacks, a sense of pride is necessary when you are considered less than by every single race of people, including your own at times.
I don't think that it does but what people fail to understand is that blacks are UNIVERSALLY disliked, in general. So for blacks, a sense of pride is necessary when you are considered less than by every single race of people, including your own at times.
Very true, it almost makes the concept of black pride a neccessity, not option, otherwise people will suffer from more self hate.
"By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd".
Exactly! Pride out of one's hue is disaster as we have seen it played out. It is superficial and an already open can of worms. Whiteness is not a real identiy.
Its a superficial one built upon the oppression of those that are darker. Plain and simple. White people still have their European identities. They were never stripped away by anyone. Most simply traded them in for the skin color "white" identity. And now you are having Arabs and others trading in their cultures for the same white identity.
Black people on the other hand, had their identiy stripped and thrown to the wind. So there is nothing else to identify as except for black which later came to be African Americans.
There is alot wrong with white pride. Most whites do know their cultural heritages, why they would prefer the color identity to me is mind boggling. If a white person claims to be of French, English, Scottish heritages, even German, there is nothing wrong with that at all.
"Yes Europeans do not consider themselves white because they have another way in which they choose to discriminate. It comes in the form of their differing nationalities and religion they don’t need skin color for that"
Don't forget that in America White skin color is synonymous with oppression of the dark skinned. So Pride in that skin color means the degradation of those with darker skin.
I would like someone to convince me that they can be proud in being white just because of its physicalities and not the historical buggage that comes with it. If one can separate those two, them being proud in the skin color by itself is fine just like I absolutely adore my own black skin.
"By all means, be proud to be Irish, Italitan, and African-American since they are all real cultures and heritages but to be proud of a freaking skin color is wierd".
People tried that in the 19th and 20th century here and it didn't work. Ethnic gangs fought each other in brutal pitch battles and groups chose to hang on to their nationalist beliefs and refuse to assimilate.
People tried that in the 19th and 20th century here and it didn't work. Ethnic gangs fought each other in brutal pitch battles and groups chose to hang on to their nationalist beliefs and refuse to assimilate
What do you think will happen if people tried to go back to that mentality of ethnicity vs. skin color?
What do you think will happen if people tried to go back to that mentality of ethnicity vs. skin color?
Do you mean people embracing ethnic heritage like Mexican Americans, English Americans etc? Well, intercultural marriages would be rare, tribalism would probably set in even harder and national unity would be a rare commodity.
Do you mean people embracing ethnic heritage like Mexican Americans, English Americans etc? Well, intercultural marriages would be rare, tribalism would probably set in even harder and national unity would be a rare commodity.
But are we unified now? I don't think so, it is just based upon skin color rather than ethnicity.
BTW, I finally saw Biracial Tiffany of Mulatto Diaries courtesy of Macon D and honestly, she couldn't articulate her feelings in a very convincing way. I think she has a lot of confusion about who she is and that probably has a lot to do with not knowing much of american history. She really needs to sit down and really think about what she is saying because nothing but drivel came across on the first three minutes of her video. The other 6 minutes seemed to contradict, albeit in a small way, what she was saying in the first 3. I think she has something to say but she needs to do a little more critical thinking first.
But are we unified now? I don't think so, it is just based upon skin color rather than ethnicity.
You are right it is, but what can unify a multiracial country? Especially when are prime competitors for super power status are much more of a monoculture? i.e. Russian and China?
You are right it is, but what can unify a multiracial country? Especially when are prime competitors for super power status are much more of a monoculture? i.e. Russian and China?
I guess we need to unify for greed so we can maintain the super power status.
I wonder what can unify a country that has truly never been unified?
http://field-negro.blogspot.com/2008/10/compassionate-racism.html
^^^ saw this over at Field Negro's and I think it did a better job of explaining the views of moviegirl and Kat to a point where I understood the prespective.
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