If you haven't noticed in today's entertainment industry, these women are "plus size". If you go to various media sites (I know, 1st mistake) you will hear things like Tyra is "plumping up", Jennifer Hudson is a big mac away from Mo'Nique, or that Toccara is a dark skinned version of the stay puft marshmallow man. Or the debates about fat Janet vs. thin Janet. Even articles about Buffy the Body and how only black guys could be into her, as the white guy doing the interview didn't see how anyone could be attracted to her, as he likes women more "fit". I can say that isn't necessarily true, as I have only dated white men and I am built like a line backer. Of course I have dated white guys who pulled the, "you would look hotter if you lost 10 pounds" line(I had low self esteem at 18,LOL), but I know plenty ok with me not being a size 0.
I think my confusion of all this "fat" talk comes from the fact the average woman in America is a size 12, and that the majority of the American population is overweight. So why is it the beauty ideal has not shifted from the "thin" ideal? What is even more of a strange thing to me is prior to the late 60s and early 70s, the "ideal" model didn't look like they do now.
Marilyn Monroe was the "ideal" for many years, and she isn't small, I don't care what people say in terms of sizing getting larger, she was never ever "model thin". If you look at pin up models of the day, they just didn't look like models or actresses do now.
Marilyn Monroe, Thelma Todd, and Sophia Loren would have been screwed in today's industry.
Now my next question is this: Why do we still support the industry. Why is everyone watching America's next top model. Why are women still reading Cosmo, Vogue, and Marie Claire instead of Bitch, Bust, and Ms. Magazine? Why are we critiquing when a celebrity does lose or gain weight, and why are we shocked they don't always look flawless? Why do we expect folks to look airbrushed in real life?
I don't expect models to look 300 lbs, but why is it ok for them to look like they weigh 80lbs, and why is it people in the "general" population so quick to judge. I still don't know why Perez Hilton is so popular he trashes people, and dishes gossip, but yet his looks are severely lacking.
30 comments:
Perez Hilton is indeed disgusting but men judge women by their looks far more than the opposite. Studies have shown men to be almost totally visual and turned on by looks alone and attraction seems to be much more complicated for women.
So what changed visually from Marilyn Monroe to Kate Moss? How did Marilyn all the sudden become fat, and Kate Moss become the ideal size?
I also want to note, a lot of the comments come from other women, and women are the ones reading and subscribing to Marie Claire, Cosmo, and Vogue.
I think the media has influence on what we deem attractive. If the media showed size 10 women, that weren't airbrushed, and showed them in a positive light, versus calling them fat, and that was the mainstream, versus what we have now, I think the beauty standards would change. Not only that, again we are looking at a society that is 65% overweight, and I know not all of those people are single, and they are dating.
I think it is obvious media has influence on what we deem attractive. If the media showed size 10 women, that weren't airbrushed, and showed them in a positive light, versus calling them fat, and that was the mainstream, versus what we have now, I think the beauty standards would change. Not only that, again we are looking at a society that is 65% overweight, and I know not all of those people are single, and they are dating.
So what changed visually from Marilyn Monroe to Kate Moss? How did Marilyn all the sudden become fat, and Kate Moss become the ideal size?
Ask the gay men who run the fashion industry, not many straight guys are looking for Kate Moss. Marilyn Monroe would do just fine in todays dating world.
I would also say most white men are harder on a woman's weight than black men. Black men are often celebrating and lusting after girls with booty and hips and allot of white guys are comparing even their own women to petite Asian girls. White men have a huge influence on what is considered attractive in this country, hence the "blond bombshell" theory of the ideal woman.
They say what changed was Twiggy. She was the first really skinny supermodel. But if you look at Christie Brinkley and Kathy Ireland, they weren't size zero girls either.
I never been a girl into the fashion mags, so I don't get it.
I used to think that something was mentally wrong with today’s guys. Not only are many of the girls in the mags and posters air brushed, most of their bodies resemble a teenage boy. Most women have curves, yet most men don’t want curves. This seems strange.
I think what has shifted is the acceptable "norm" by society. Society put a label on what is suppose to be pretty, beautiful, and attractive when a majority of women don't fit that norm. While speaking to my mother about this, she informed me that the fashion industry and the idea of beauty was changed with the introduction of models who looked like Twiggy. That changed everything.
When this happened, it messed with the mentality of women, and it also made them negatively decipher between what is pretty vs. ugly. When everywhere you look, you see a woman who is a size 4 at max, it messes with your mentality and makes you begin to think, "Is there something wrong with me?"
Personally, I'm not one of those women who wishes to be skinny (yet I still read Cosmo, Vogue, and others) , and I like to see women who aren't so consumed with being skinny. I battled with an eating disorder for a long time due to what society said I should look like, and now that I'm comfortable with my looks, I can care less of what society thinks.
Girl LOL I am not showing this post to my husband he would drool all over the keyboard with all that eye candy. He likes em thick in the thighs and slim in the face.
On a serious note I understand the furstration, skin and bones how did that translate into sexy where I'm from that means you were not getting enough to eat.
So many why's, so little time.
Why do we want more diversity represented on the runway when the clothes are made for 14 yr old boys anyway? Why expect anything different from idiots? Why do we have expectations?
BTW,Tocarra is KILLING IT in that pic. Giving me a little girl crush. I SO wish I could get my hands on a copy of that Italian Vogue... :(
'till next time...
Ask the gay men who run the fashion industry, not many straight guys are looking for Kate Moss. Marilyn Monroe would do just fine in todays dating world.
But it seems the guys are drooling over Kate Moss. If you look at the Maxim and FHM's of the world, you have to be airbrushed, thin, with plastic surgery to be deemed as datable.
White men have a huge influence on what is considered attractive in this country, hence the "blond bombshell" theory of the ideal woman.
I do agree that white men tend to be a bit more picky weight wise in regards to women, but I see plenty of white guys married to some plus sized women, and remember most the guys that demand these "perfect women" tend not to look perfect themselves, it isn't just women making up the overweight folks.
I also want to note that white men do have influence on what is considered attractive. I think they set the threshold of what is pretty. God forbid you don't look like the women in FHM and Maxim, you are screwed in the dating world. I can see why women have low self esteem in this society. It is hard to find a guy who doesn't want a trophy. God knows how people stay married as women age, and they lose their youthful look. I look forward to the day my husband dumps me for a 20 year old :)
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They say what changed was Twiggy. She was the first really skinny supermodel. But if you look at Christie Brinkley and Kathy Ireland, they weren't size zero girls either.
Yeah Christie and Kathy would have been considered fat in the modeling world as well,but they were white and that is automatic beauty in our society.
I used to think that something was mentally wrong with today’s guys. Not only are many of the girls in the mags and posters air brushed, most of their bodies resemble a teenage boy. Most women have curves, yet most men don’t want curves. This seems strange.
I thought it strange too. People are very excited that on America's Next Top Model there is a transsexual model. Nothing against the transsexuals, but to me it seems sad that a person born a man can attain the model ideal better than most women.
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When this happened, it messed with the mentality of women, and it also made them negatively decipher between what is pretty vs. ugly. When everywhere you look, you see a woman who is a size 4 at max, it messes with your mentality and makes you begin to think, "Is there something wrong with me?" Personally, I'm not one of those women who wishes to be skinny (yet I still read Cosmo, Vogue, and others) , and I like to see women who aren't so consumed with being skinny. I battled with an eating disorder for a long time due to what society said I should look like, and now that I'm comfortable with my looks, I can care less of what society thinks.
Very true. I gave up the Cosmos and Vogues a long time ago and switched over to Utne Reader and Bust. I don't even know who are the new supermodels, aside from Giselle Bundchen. It makes me feel better, and I don't have to question if I am remotely attractive anymore.
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On a serious note I understand the furstration, skin and bones how did that translate into sexy where I'm from that means you were not getting enough to eat.
LOL
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Why do we want more diversity represented on the runway when the clothes are made for 14 yr old boys anyway? Why expect anything different from idiots? Why do we have expectations?
Very true.
But it seems the guys are drooling over Kate Moss. If you look at the Maxim and FHM's of the world, you have to be airbrushed, thin, with plastic surgery to be deemed as datable.
Most of the women in Maxim seem closer to Jessica Simpson, some meat on her bones, but in a white girl kind of way. As far as overweight guys, yeah, they still want a hot girl and can get one if they have money. If black men were setting the standard, I think it would be quite a different one, some of it is cultural. I've seen some very fit black guys with women who are heavy and you see much less of that white guys.
Two gangs were driving really fast down a street. A group of Black youths and the other were Hispanic youths they were racing. They were going so fast. They saw that at the end of the street was a cliff. Neither wanted to stop to save their honour. So they kept going. When the both drove off the cliff...who do you think won?
The answer is Society.
Society wins...deal with it ! Vanity, Greed and Jealousy are all part of human nature and this is what womens magazines/media feed off. Our insecurities. Which lead us to be this way.
Kate Moss is an ugly stick insect ! I'm sorry but she ain't pretty and she needs to eat. Many models have commited suicide trying to fit the social ideal. It's disgusting.
Actually my mom got this book called The Definitive Book of Body Language- in it i read that men are attracted to big bums, big breasts and long legs....so er...why doesn't everyone like black women ? Stereotypically they got all of that !
Happy Nigerian Independence Day
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I just want to say that Sophia Loren was fly. That is all.
C-1,
Not to doubt you, but where can I find these studies. I'm actually really interested in how they were performed.
I,
Evolutionary psychologists like Dr. David Buss believe that present-day mate selection behaviors were founded in the Stone Age. Buss' recent survey of over 10,000 people in 37 countries, on six continents, reports that men consistently prize physical attraction and youth in their potential mates, while women value ambition, status, and financial resources. Also check out the work of Steven Pinker, another evolutionary psychologist.
Not putting you down C-1, but since when did these studies say men were "almost totally" visual? I've only heard "much more visual than women". If men were almost completely visual creatures they wouldn't even need to have one "occupied hand" or even have sex for that matter.
Me, I've learned to appreciate womanly curves (female myself). Actually i think all body types can have their good/bad. I"m not trashing the skinny girls either. But i think woman's ideal = shapely. I can get VERY worked up thinking about how vicious and awful we as a society are to women. I love my mama, sisters, friends, etc. so just as a woman, i try to spread that love. Enough of women suffering. I want us to be happy.
You won't find me supporting said shows, mags, etc. and for the curvy girls out there, I think y'all are beautiful.
I just have an idea I'd like to share for those who aren't 'in the program' yet. ;) Try looking for beauty in the strange & unconventional, but also the common and overlooked. I think i'm much happier that way. Notice how before marilyn, the ideal was dark hair? Betty Page, the pinup girls, they were usually dark-haired. In fact, men still find dark hair more attractive on average (derived from some not-so scientific polls & observation but they count nonetheless).
Back then, before Twiggy & co., how many men were going crazy over 'emaciated with fake breasts' women? I never heard of such. Now, men are accepted, even encouraged, to rave about/pursue some starved Posh Spice-looking girl. Enhanced, uniform, mono-sized robots.
I encourage everyone to fight the system and keep at it. :)
comparing models now to those 15 years ago and there is a big difference in size.
Tocarra appeals to a lot of men across racial boundaries.
Most of the women in Maxim seem closer to Jessica Simpson, some meat on her bones, but in a white girl kind of way.
That is sad that Jessica Simpson is considered to have meat on her bones, considering she is a self proclaimed size 2 with a 26 inch waist, and is rumored to have had breast implants since she was a teenager. Big boobs does not equal meat on bones.
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Actually my mom got this book called The Definitive Book of Body Language- in it i read that men are attracted to big bums, big breasts and long legs....so er...why doesn't everyone like black women ? Stereotypically they got all of that !
That is what I don't understand, if this is indeed what men are attracted to, the current influx of models and actresses don't fit into that ideal.
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Back then, before Twiggy & co., how many men were going crazy over 'emaciated with fake breasts' women? I never heard of such. Now, men are accepted, even encouraged, to rave about/pursue some starved Posh Spice-looking girl. Enhanced, uniform, mono-sized robots.
That is what I am trying to figure out, why did they change if being attracted to a certain look is biological what happened, and why and how did tastes change?
Not to mention how in the hell is a black woman to get a white man if they want only size 2 women?
As long as you are healthy, it probably shouldn't matter what your body looks like.
I also believe it's a cultural thing. My Jamaican mother cannot stand skinny women and I notice Black men tend to like a little something something in their women.
Exercise, nutrition, diet and surgery have changed things forever. Women are slimmer than in the past and men are larger as well. The norms have changed but it has effected women more because of the unfortunate tendency of men to link them to their looks above all. Cultural differences are huge though as well.
Not putting you down C-1, but since when did these studies say men were "almost totally" visual.
Good point, I went too far on that, I should have said mostly visual.
Exercise, nutrition, diet and surgery have changed things forever. Women are slimmer than in the past and men are larger as well. The norms have changed but it has effected women more because of the unfortunate tendency of men to link them to their looks above all. Cultural differences are huge though as well.
That is the thing, women are bigger, not slimmer, a size 12 is the norm, not size 2. The norms have indeed changed, but not in the direction of smaller women, we are taller and bigger than we were 50 years ago. The beauty ideals have changed for slimmer, but the norm isn't a size 2, and never was.
One of the things to consider here, is that the use of the word "most." There are a lot of guys who don't follow the trends of the media and fashion trends, just as there are a lot of women who don't either.
There are a large number of men who use their personal tastes for determining beauty, which on some level is a personal thing to begin with. As C1 stated that men are extremely visual. Especially given the fact that males, on some basic level, look for women who have the potential to pass on certain traits.
Personally, I don't think that the Western media is out to make sense. I think they are out to push an agenda, most of which is unhealthy. Just look at some of the stars, models, athletes, etc. who are heavily promoted. A good number of them have personal issues. The first question should be, are these people that someone would want to model their lives after.
As far as beauty is concerned, there a lot of guys who aren't drooling over Kate Moss or whoever. Yet, the whole point of the media is to sell people on things. I think that ideals of the "average" man changed. I think the media, which is often run by people with issues, has an agenda to sell.
Personally, I think the average male and female are attracted to their own PERSONAL likes, which crosses a number of stratas. I also tend to believe that the average man and woman doesn't rely on the media for their view of beauty. So in turn I believe that the average man and woman seek out a mate, get married, and start a family based on their own PERSONAL likes.
The media on the other hand is not about representing the average human being. So thank G-d that the new media (blogs, youtube, web-sites) have the ability to level the playing field.
That is the thing, women are bigger, not slimmer, a size 12 is the norm, not size 2. The norms have indeed changed, but not in the direction of smaller women, we are taller and bigger than we were 50 years ago. The beauty ideals have changed for slimmer, but the norm isn't a size 2, and never was.
No, but there are enough size 2 women running around for even the fat ass guys to think they can get one. There are ranges as well, If you like bigger and more muscular men, you'll probably find black men the best fit. If your a guy who want's a little, petite girl, you'll most likely find Asian women to be your thing. If there is a single standard (blond, thin, etc.) it will be impossible for all women in a multi cultural country to even attempt to meet it.
If there is a single standard (blond, thin, etc.) it will be impossible for all women in a multi cultural country to even attempt to meet it.
That is the reason black women have traditionally been overlooked as being a possible mate for most white men, and now hell even black men, they don't tend to find us attractive, and if they do, it is purely superficial and sexual, and the idea of actually "dating" or worse yet "marrying" a black woman is a unrealistic concept for them. Which is why IR dating is really a depressing and daunting thing for black women.
That is the reason black women have traditionally been overlooked as being a possible mate for most white men, and now hell even black men, they don't tend to find us attractive, and if they do, it is purely superficial and sexual, and the idea of actually "dating" or worse yet "marrying" a black woman is a unrealistic concept for them.
This is a very complicated topic but I'll try and add a couple of things. I believe most people prefer to date in their own race and culture. There are already lots of options for white men, so they don't have to step outside the box if they don't have to. Secondly, racism is there and some don't want any connection to black America. Cultural differences also play a role and most white people have little real cultural interaction with black people or they hold very different religous, political and historical beliefs.
This is a very complicated topic but I'll try and add a couple of things. I believe most people prefer to date in their own race and culture. There are already lots of options for white men, so they don't have to step outside the box if they don't have to. Secondly, racism is there and some don't want any connection to black America. Cultural differences also play a role and most white people have little real cultural interaction with black people or they hold very different religous, political and historical beliefs.
I am curious how and what do white people have in common with Asians and hispanics, that they don't have with blacks? I as a black american have more in common with a white american than I would a black african, west indian, etc. Religion is something I would say many white republicans and black democrats have in common. The difference between a southern baptist and a missionary baptist is the fact that one church is white and one is black, but they are traditionally the same exact church.
it's because i once read that inner beauty is for ugly people.
plus size or the normal woman is now ugly. welcome to the swelling and ebbing of the current age's engineered tastes.
as long as men still like tits and ass, non thin women will be wined and dined.
It obvious that fantasy and real life are quite different for men. Because when I hear men talking about who they find attractive it is usually the Beyonce, Jessica Simpson, Brittany, Alicia Keys, JLo, Jessica Alba, Rhianna types. Basically, healthy and curvy women whether really thin or thick appear to be the ideal for many men.
And outside of a few instances here and there,I rarely see men with "Posh" types. So my question is who really finds those type of women attractive outside of Hollyweird?
Also, I have friends that can wear a size two clothing and they weight at least 130lbs. So a size two isn't what it use to be ..lol
On a serious note, those ladies look great and many men would find them attractive.
Marilyn was beautiful and curvy. I guess she was considered voluptuous. Beyonce is sort of built like that-- she definitely has some hips on her as well as Jennifer Lopez. But Jennifer Hudson and Queen Latifah are sexy women as well. Essence magazine has Mo'Nique on the cover and it features size 12 women and up the pictures are beautiful. I really think that whenever one seeks validation from someone else, they will never get it. There are some WM out there who love Big BW and there are some WM out there who love skinny BW. Attitude and confidence plays a big role in attracting someone too.
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