Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.-John 7:24
OK I have told you I am faithless, a lot of people assumed I was mad at the church, when in reality I explained my rationale for my belief system or lack thereof. Now it is my time to talk about what irks me about the people in the religion I grew up in, which was Christianity.
The black church tends to be very class and status conscious. You put on your Sunday best. There is a whole market dedicated to black women hat and suits for the church. You can't wear hats and suits like this anywhere else, except maybe a wedding or some other formal event:
I actually remember at my great grandmother's funeral, which was in a church, my husband looked in shock and horror at my great aunt's fashion choice. He referred to her hat as a Jiffy Pop hat, and to this day he refers to her as Jiffy Pop. She knows this and thinks it is funny. She loves my husband, in her eyes he can do no wrong, even when he is making fun of her. As per usual I digress.
I guess it is important to realize that I grew up in country churches, the majority of my church life. We knew people with "weekend" cars, they drove their clunker to work, but the Lincoln and Cadillac were for weekend driving, and weekend driving usually meant a drive into church, Then people would get out of their cars in the best suits money could buy, so that they could to the usual pew and do the catwalk down the main isle of the church. Church was a place to see and be seen. If you came into church wearing anything less than stellar, folks would talk about you. The concept of coming to church in jeans and khakis up until the 1990s, was a "white church" thing, and even now in some churches if you do that, you are going to get talked about. Now my questions are these: Why are people so concerned about what people wear to worship in church? Why can't you wear casual clothing to worship? I know to some it is disrespectful for people to come into church "too casual", but to me, I don't think God strikes you down because you failed to wear a $200 suit to church? Why can't you drive your 1997 Tercel up into the church parking lot? Does God care what kind of car you drive to church? More importantly do you feel it is fair to wear a hat that obstructs the view of your fellow church members?
I guess another beef I have is mega churches. You know the Potter's House, Lakewood Church. Here in the Dallas area we have Prestonwood Baptist Church. I affectionately call it Six Flags Over Jesus. That church is HUGE. Not as big as the Potter's House or Lakewood Church, but it is huge in it's own right. It was the first church I ever knew that had an ATM in the lobby. It also has a restaurant, gym, and bookstore. That completely blew me away. They also have multiple campuses. A lot of churches do that now. They have north, south, east, and west locations so they are convenience. Like chain stores, churches are sprawling every where like Wal Mart. What happened to the small independent churches of yester year? Why do churches feel so corporate now? Can a small church survive. Imagine if every member of that mega church is tithing 10% of their income to their church, what kind of salaries are the ministers and the staff getting? Are they receiving inflated salaries like the CEOs of major corporations, or do they deserve these salaries that afford them multiple homes and luxury cars? If Jesus were alive today, would he be like Creflo Dollar?
Is status important? Do people go to church to associate and hob nob with religious celebrities and ministers; or do they truly go to learn and worship? Does how you dress or the car you drive influence your relationship with God?
35 comments:
I guess in response, it's jut the Black church culture. For years, we have viewed the church as the center of our community, and we wanted to reflect good things in that place (even though times for us weren't always good). This meant, looking your best and emphasizing an idea that you bring and look your best for God since He has done the best for you. It lifts the spirits.
I must admit, when I go to church, I dress up...it's embedded in me, and I won't ever change that. I actually get excited to wear my best with my pearls. Even though it says come as you are, when I usually step out, I dress up anyways...that's me on an every day basis...even if I'm wearing sneakers (which is rare), I'm on point with it.
About mega churches, I have mixed feelings about it. There are lots of celebrities who go to my church, and the church has expaned to its own schools, gyms, little league teams, and whatever else...frankly, I find noththing wrong with it. About the money...if you have it to give, give...if not, o' well. I love my pastor, Bishop Eddiie Long, and I love his sermons. However, I hate parking at church and leaving the parking lot. People get so filled with the spirit yet want to cuss you out if you try to cut in front of them to leave the parking lot. What happened to the loving spirit?! I'd rather just watch it on television or go to the early service.
Your post is soooooo on point. I get so frustrated when I visit my parents and have to go to church with them because they're never amused that I go to church in khaki's or jeans and a T-shirt.
What is the significance of the hats? Where I am from, people dont wear the hats to church. I thought is was a West African only thing.
LOL @ "Six Flags Over Jesus"
Now that was funny!
I feel you on what you say. And you know what? As faithless as I am, I've noticed that when I raise questions like you have, they'll be met as being trivial.
Now, I think the "standard" set in the Black church comes from the slavery days. I think we were conditioned to think that we weren't shit and it was only through the love of Jesus, or Christianity, that we would be accepted. Accepted by Jesus, and not our fellow white citizens. But through Jesus, we would be more civilized and less savage.
Thats where I think that "idea" came from, and just like the same tired hand me down Dogma, we see what we see today. Personally, I think Churches should have to pay taxes. Many people won't agree with that, but thats what I think. Hell, the Pastor is really no different than a CEO in my book, and his church should be treated the likes of a corporation.
I ain't gonna lie...
that first pic of that woman with that hat cracked me up. And trust me, you can't tell her she ain't sharp.
While scathing, still a great insight and critique of an aspect of black culture, you may not be proud of, but is still distinctly African-American.
As for my religious take, with no regard to race...
God does not so much care what you wear. Casual is more or less fine. God does care what is in your heart and sooner or later that should bleed through to the surface. In other words if you love and respect god, you will dress accordingly when visiting his house. Your dress should not be to show off, to others or to God, but should show an appropriate level of respect for the venue and it's purpose.
The Bible speaks damningly about "priestcraft." This is not witchcraft or sorcery but preaching for money. I do not believe in a paid clergy.
I have a problem with the ministers that live in mansions and drive a lexus. I'm not saying they must live in poverty but think of how many more people they could help if they lived in a middle class home and drove a ford. Is the goal to help people or to line your own pockets?
The church is an enterprise, a business, that has some major power in the world. There is a reason why you will never see the church have to pay taxes, because they would incite their followers (sheep), and any politician that supports the tax would be committing political suicide. It's funny how much power the church processes, It won't surprise me if soon we have companies buying churches, and using them as a way to loop hole paying taxes, that would actually be brilliant. How much money they could possibly launder through a church, and know they have the backings of their minions- I mean followers.
I just spoke to a cousin who works for one of the big Dallas pastors that you reference. She said that she could get me a front row seat at the church when I visit. (I tend to always sit in the back with the rest of the sinners) The things you haer about the pastors and their wives would make someone choose another church.
I tend to only attend smaller churches which actually help their neighbors (If the church is surrounded by a bad area, IMO - they're not doing their job in that community).
I have no problem with Mega-Churches. Some of the congregations reflect a possitive aspect of religion.
The peacock aspect is not for me, I'm more Armani than Steve Harvey.
I don't know when it dressing up for church started, but white people do it too :-D it's like a tradition that can't be broken.
I used to dress up a lot when i was younger but my mother let me wear what i wanted as i got older. She still dresses up a bit. But i realised that God sees you everyday, you are dressing up for the people at Church... :-) Fortunatel, even jeans and a T-Shirt is normal/okay to wear at our Church. Although people to dress up. It is not that excessive.
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@Soila:What is the significance of the hats? Where I am from, people dont wear the hats to church. I thought is was a West African only thing.
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No...and they usually don't wear hats, they dress up in overly flamboyant traditional wear. Wear a lot of gold too.
This meant, looking your best and emphasizing an idea that you bring and look your best for God since He has done the best for you. It lifts the spirits.
How does it lift the spirits to wear expensive outfits? Isn't that a bit materialistic? Doesn't God accept you as you are?
There are lots of celebrities who go to my church, and the church has expaned to its own schools, gyms, little league teams, and whatever else...frankly, I find noththing wrong with it. About the money...if you have it to give, give...if not, o' well.
So the church is your social center, I understand that, but does the church do that to entice members to stay and put more money in their pockets, or do they do it because it is in the best interest of their parishioners? Do the members go there to see and be seen, or to say they are hobnobbing with the rich and famous?
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What is the significance of the hats? Where I am from, people dont wear the hats to church. I thought is was a West African only thing.
I don't get the hat thing either, I just know women love to wear those big old hats obstructing the view of everyone.
I feel you on what you say. And you know what? As faithless as I am, I've noticed that when I raise questions like you have, they'll be met as being trivial.
Exactly, I don't get it. Why is that trivial? It is in the book that many believe in.
It is in the Bible, Luke 12:22-23
" And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you, do not worry about life, what you will eat; nor for your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing."
and here,Matthew 23:25-28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
here, 1 Timothy 2:9-10:
"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God."
here 1 Samuel 16:7
"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
here, 1 Peter 3:3-4
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight."
To me, you should be following the book that has the tenets of your beliefs, not social trends, but that is just me. I often wonder how many church goers have actually sat down and read the Bible, versus just flipping to the page their pastor tells them to on any particular Sunday or Wednesday night, and listen to him interpret it for him?
I really am thankful for my religious upbringing, because it did bring me where I am today. I actually sat and read the Bible, and then questioned it, the sad thing was to some questioning the Bible is a sin, and people feel you are questioning God or worse yet their minister.
Now, I think the "standard" set in the Black church comes from the slavery days. I think we were conditioned to think that we weren't shit and it was only through the love of Jesus, or Christianity, that we would be accepted. Accepted by Jesus, and not our fellow white citizens. But through Jesus, we would be more civilized and less savage.
I definitely agree. I think Christianity was forced upon us to control "our savagery" and we believed the only way to be civilized was to adopt this religion. I find that sad, but at the same time, again the black church historically has been a cornerstone of the black community, and without it, we might not have ever been able to organize much of the civil rights movement.
Personally, I think Churches should have to pay taxes. Many people won't agree with that, but thats what I think. Hell, the Pastor is really no different than a CEO in my book, and his church should be treated the likes of a corporation.
Exactly. That is why I find it shady we got ATMs, credit unions, gyms, bookstores, and restaurants in the same buildings as churches. Do those entities pay taxes, or are they part of the church, and a loophole for the church to have money generating businesses without paying taxes, outside the money making business of getting people in the pews?
While scathing, still a great insight and critique of an aspect of black culture, you may not be proud of, but is still distinctly African-American.
As for my religious take, with no regard to race...
God does not so much care what you wear. Casual is more or less fine. God does care what is in your heart and sooner or later that should bleed through to the surface. In other words if you love and respect god, you will dress accordingly when visiting his house. Your dress should not be to show off, to others or to God, but should show an appropriate level of respect for the venue and it's purpose.
I agree brohammas, it makes me wonder how many homeless people who still worship and believe in god would be welcome at many a mega church? Would they be welcome, or would they be escorted out of the building? Was I really scathing?
The Bible speaks damningly about "priestcraft." This is not witchcraft or sorcery but preaching for money. I do not believe in a paid clergy.
In my come to Jesus I had with myself about religion, part of it came from my own great uncle. Now he was a pastor with a moderate sized church, the church provided him with a nice home, and offered to buy him a car. The first car they offered him was new, but it wasn't a Lincoln, the car he wanted. His members actually took that car back and got him a damn Lincoln. I started looking at preachers and their followers side ways after that incident. Of course I got numerous incidents in regards to why I think many parishioners put a God like status on their church leaders, and still want to worship them, regardless of the actions, no matter how deplorable of these people are.
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I have a problem with the ministers that live in mansions and drive a lexus. I'm not saying they must live in poverty but think of how many more people they could help if they lived in a middle class home and drove a ford. Is the goal to help people or to line your own pockets?
Great point. Does God really reward you with worldly things to point that you are big pimping like P. Diddy, Daddy, Puffy, or whatever the hell he names himself these days?
The church is an enterprise, a business, that has some major power in the world. There is a reason why you will never see the church have to pay taxes, because they would incite their followers (sheep), and any politician that supports the tax would be committing political suicide. It's funny how much power the church processes, It won't surprise me if soon we have companies buying churches, and using them as a way to loop hole paying taxes, that would actually be brilliant. How much money they could possibly launder through a church, and know they have the backings of their minions- I mean followers.
Very good point JDR, I think the advent of mega churches does just that. It turns a church into a business, not a place of worship, and it becomes a loophole to bankroll tax free money.
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I just spoke to a cousin who works for one of the big Dallas pastors that you reference. She said that she could get me a front row seat at the church when I visit. (I tend to always sit in the back with the rest of the sinners) The things you haer about the pastors and their wives would make someone choose another church.
One of my uncles is an associate pastor at the Potter's House, he has been trying to get me to go there for ages, but it scares me, it looks like a shopping mall. He is determined to make me believe again, and I commend him for it, but I don't think that would be the place to do it. I feel that for him being an associate pastor there is great for his career in the ministry, and he is a great orator, and very motivational.
I have no problem with Mega-Churches. Some of the congregations reflect a possitive aspect of religion.
The peacock aspect is not for me, I'm more Armani than Steve Harvey.
Even so Armani ain't cheap. Doesn't God like Docker's too?
I don't know when it dressing up for church started, but white people do it too :-D it's like a tradition that can't be broken.
Yeah I know white people do it too, but it seems that the black church takes it to a whole another level.
I would say, in the past when all we had was the church to depend on, it lifted our spirits, for other than that we had no major reason to look our best...our jobs mostly included being maids, brick layers, etc. Currently, it's not the only thig that lifts our spirits because we have a lot more compared to our ancestors, yet I still think it has that affect (somewhat). Some may call it materialistic, but I don't see it that way...I just see it as tradition. At my church, you can come as you are...I've seen people wear nothing but a t-shirt and jeans, and sit at the front...does it matter...no. It's all about you being comfortable in what you wish to wear. I feel the saying come as you are, is saying come how you feel comfortable. If you're comfortable in it, and coming to church for a purpose, then forget what others have to say.
The celebrities don't participate in the other parts of the church (i.e. gym, schools, etc.), well I haven't seen them, but I'm more than sure their money has helped to make it happen. The centers aren't only for church members, rather they are for the community, so it isn't a social center. It's the same as when they send transportation for the elderly, college students, and regular people who don't have cars. They also help pay students tuitions, feed the homeless (and college students at times), pay for educational trips outside of the country, help people with their health, offer counseling services, help people pay their bills (even sometimes paying off major bills), and much more. I think it is just trying to once again be an integral part of the community like it once was. Often we tend to look at the negative without fully seeing the whole spectrum and understanding why the church is doing what it doing.
Also, for anyone who wants to read upon the reason why black women wear hats in church, the book "Crowns: Portraits of Black Women in Church Hats." Then of course, there are also various articles out there about the same thing.
Hey,
Don't have much to say since I live in Godless NYC, LOL. I will say this, I was watching Housewives of Atlanta, I know, I know, ball me out later. But one of the housewives threw a benefit where all the ladies wore big hats and she said it was an AA tradition. I kind felt proud at the moment. We don't have THAT many traditions, aside from eating black eyed peas on New Years Day (apparently southern white folk do the same) and even though it's not a tradition I partake in, I guess it's still a tradition as silly as it is.
More and more it is the message of prosperity. Not a prosperous spirit, mind you, but prosperous worldly and secular living.
I have not belonged to a Church in many decades and proudly call myself a 'heathen'(sarcasm). Why? I find it difficult to associate myself with the dogma of an organization that seeks to save my clothes but not my soul. I too, have grown up in the same circumstances. Going to a prosperous Black Church and then hear my step-mom talk about everybody before we hit the car in the parking lot.
I have found my own spiritual path that has brought me much joy and enlightenment!!!!
Yeah I know white people do it too, but it seems that the black church takes it to a whole another level.
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I wouldn't peg this on the church. Black culture in general places a different value on dress and appearance than white's do. That is not to say you can't find a white guy in a shiny purple suit... they exist, but top to bottom black culture dictates an individual put more effort into clothes.
I'll bet you money every saggy pants rapper irons his white T and jeans. where I grew up ironing jeans was an alien idea. We suburban white boys are a sloppy, wrinkled bunch....
My wife's mother would have had a heart attack. My wife irons the baby's onesy. Seriously the kids gonna throw up on it in twenty seconds why are you ironing???
This is an interesting topic that I have actually considered quite a bit. My family is from a small farming community in East Texas. My late grandmother pastored her own church, which we built ourselves as a family a few feet between the house and the hog/cow pen on our acreage! At one time, the church was called The Heavenly Lighthouse Sanctuary of Jesus Christ. Musical, right? Anyway, even though this church was only a few feet from the house, and the only attendees were our family and a few close neighbors, we dressed up to attend Sunday services. Hats, nice suits and dresses, hose for girls and ties for boys, and the infamous "Sunday shoes". In a segregated Texas town where most blacks lived in rural areas and whites lived in the town, and most blacks were employed in either agricultural or labor positions, Sunday services was the only time you got to dress up, to hold positions of respect and authority, and to wear "fancy" dress. I think that has become a part of the AA church tradition that now transcends region and urban/rural designations. I may be a Pagan, but Big Mama's lessons died hard. On the rare occasion that I attend services at a Christian church, I always dress up. It was always inculcated in me as a point of pride and respect, and it's not something I can shake now.
I also think there are two fundamentally different world views. My best (white) friend's mother attends a church in which people regularly wear jeans, t-shirts, shorts, etc. She always says what others have mentioned, "God doesn't care what you look like or how you come, He just cares if you come." My grandmother would have been appalled at such an idea. She firmly believed that you dressed your best to show respect and honor to God for all the blessings you have received, and to dress down was to disrespect and dishonor that. She also believed that if someone didn't have appropriate attire for church, it was the responsibility of the church family to help them out, and loan, buy, or give them what they need so they could come to church properly dressed. People differ on these issues, and that impacts how they see what admittedly can be a silly fashion show in some circumstances. But for an older generation in particular, I think that Sunday morning dress up is far more about dignity and pride than about materialism or peacockery.
I'll bet that if you put 1/4 the time and effort into searching for God, studying the Word and asking Him to show you truth as you obviously have in observing churches & people that go to churches, you just might find The One who loves you more than you know. Just because there are a few knuckleheads in a family doesn't mean the head of the family is a knucklehead. I think your focus should be more on God and not people. How can someone be angry since 1976?!?
Hey Siditty,
I think some dress up because its like formally going before a king (i.e. God or whatever, whoever one worships)
Then again some, because its hard to fathom God, resort to impressing people intead. Thus you get the fancy shmancy cars, the glitzy suit, etc etc etc.
Does dressing up effect one's relationship to God. I think so. I think those who dress up -for real, I mean, not for show- do so because they have a certain reverence and awe and want to "dress up for a king" so to speak.
Those who dress up for people, are phony and their relationship with God is probly phony too.
Those who dress casually probly sees God in a more friendly, personable way.
I thought hats was a baptist thing, no?
I would say, in the past when all we had was the church to depend on, it lifted our spirits, for other than that we had no major reason to look our best...our jobs mostly included being maids, brick layers, etc. Currently, it's not the only thig that lifts our spirits because we have a lot more compared to our ancestors, yet I still think it has that affect (somewhat). Some may call it materialistic, but I don't see it that way...I just see it as tradition.
I see it as a tradition in materialism. There are many traditions that are great and wonderful, but I don't think dressing up is one of them. It makes me wonder if maybe just maybe that if we didn't have this said tradition, we wouldn't have the black stereotype of being "label whores", obsessed more with name brands than with education, or a better economical situation. I think that if more people of all races in America got rid of this notion of more is better we wouldn't have the severe credit crisis we do now.
At my church, you can come as you are...I've seen people wear nothing but a t-shirt and jeans, and sit at the front...does it matter...no. It's all about you being comfortable in what you wish to wear. I feel the saying come as you are, is saying come how you feel comfortable. If you're comfortable in it, and coming to church for a purpose, then forget what others have to say.
The thing is not all churches are come as you are, there is a reason that people had to create ministries for the homeless, and I find that sad. Sometimes we can't bathe because we have no bathtub, should those people be turned away. If I were to read the Bible and believe that Jesus was alive today, I can't imagine him being happy with the whole concept of "dress to impress".
Often we tend to look at the negative without fully seeing the whole spectrum and understanding why the church is doing what it doing.
I am going to keep it real. I grew up in churches where we gave our 10% tithe (whatever that means) and we still had to do fundraisers, pancakes breakfasts, car washes, bake sales, and everything else to raise money for these things. How much do you think of your churches "tithe" money goes to these, versus extra donations from members of the church.
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I find it difficult to associate myself with the dogma of an organization that seeks to save my clothes but not my soul.
I feel the same way.
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I wouldn't peg this on the church. Black culture in general places a different value on dress and appearance than white's do. That is not to say you can't find a white guy in a shiny purple suit... they exist, but top to bottom black culture dictates an individual put more effort into clothes.
I would definitely agree.
I'll bet you money every saggy pants rapper irons his white T and jeans. where I grew up ironing jeans was an alien idea. We suburban white boys are a sloppy, wrinkled bunch...
My dad gets his jeans dry cleaned and pressed. I could never figure out why. I still don't know. I think he gave up that practice, but I thought it to be so strange LOL I guess my white suburban surroundings made me hate irons. My poor husband, I tell him get it out of the dryer while hot to ensure less wrinkles.
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Sunday services was the only time you got to dress up, to hold positions of respect and authority, and to wear "fancy" dress. I think that has become a part of the AA church tradition that now transcends region and urban/rural designations.
I guess that is true, but then again I feel that some traditions should go away.
My grandmother would have been appalled at such an idea. She firmly believed that you dressed your best to show respect and honor to God for all the blessings you have received, and to dress down was to disrespect and dishonor that.
I guess my issue with that is the Bible states otherwise in many instances. It truly says come as you are.
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I'll bet that if you put 1/4 the time and effort into searching for God, studying the Word and asking Him to show you truth as you obviously have in observing churches & people that go to churches, you just might find The One who loves you more than you know. Just because there are a few knuckleheads in a family doesn't mean the head of the family is a knucklehead. I think your focus should be more on God and not people. How can someone be angry since 1976?!?
Tweety,
I came straight out of the womb angry. I have studied the word of God, I have read the Bible many times, I grew up in the church, I grew up "searching the truth". I have explained this many times. I didn't grow up a "heathen", I became one later in life. If you had bothered to read the first sentence of this post, I have stated my issue with religion itself, aside from the people practicing it. I didn't go into my current belief system blindly, nor did I take it lightly. I am saying "I don't know". That to me says the answer to everything isn't in the Bible, and that sometimes the Bible seems to contradict itself. Call that questioning or judging God, I just call it asking questions and not proclaiming to have the answers. I am an agnostic atheist. I don't claim to know if God exists or not, but I don't worship a deity either.
I also think the people who practice religion make it even more confusing and baffling.
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Miriam,
I grew up Baptist, but I know Methodist who love those hats too. :)
Brohammas sd:
"where I grew up ironing jeans was an alien idea."
LOL. I hear you! I never have understood why people iron jeans but then again compared to my friends, I always look frumpy.
Sid sd:
"...I tell him get it out of the dryer while hot to ensure less wrinkles."
Hehe. I do that too. I get my clothes out the dryer as soon as it goes off so I can fold them when they are warm and decently wrinkle free and if I forget to do so, I run them through the washer then dry them again just to avoid ironing :o)
At my home church back in NC, I swear I thought I was at a fashion show with the women wearing fur coats and these gigantic hats. It seemed more like a "Who's Who" than church service. The church environment that I'm in now, is totally different. I've seen flip flops, PJ bottoms, whatever. No one cares. It's very relaxed and laid back and there is no superficial stuff going on. To Beautifully Conjured Up: I'm curious about Bishop Long's church, but I just don't want to drive all the way out to Lithonia. That's about an hour from where I live. I go to North Point Community Church-- where we would be considered a Mega Church, but everyone is so friendly and sincere, I don't think about how it takes me half an hour to get out of the parking lot.
Let's just be transparent.I don't believe you. I don't believe that you've "read the Bible many times". And I don't believe that anyone who in humility and sincerity truly searches for God becomes a "heathen". Any time I hear (or read) a conversation peppered with "I grew up in church", "I grew up Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal,etc", refer to His majesty as "religion" and then use that as a measure of their "Christianity", I know they've never had an encounter with the true and living God. I also don't believe that the answer to everything is "in the Bible". If you wanted to know my name, you'd ask me...not search the scriptures. But I believe some things on our plane are beyond understanding and I humbly submit to that. And neither do I think there's anything wrong with questioning. However I do believe that once you come to know Him, those questions don't hold as much importance. Read in it's proper context and accompanied by prayer the bible won't contradict itself. I don't know it all or have all the answers either...that would make me more than human. But to be an "angry, agnostic, atheistic, heathen" seems to me would make for a pretty miserable existence. You come off as lovely lady with a high degree of intellect. Please know that He believes in you even though you don't believe in Him. I have you in my heart.
@starkitty50
Overall, I like the church (except for the parking and the ushers who act like they are being paid a six figure salary);my family has been going to see him for a long time (prior to the current location). People are going to have their own opinions and feelings towards religion, and various types of churches aren't above being looked down upon. With that being said, I would say come down to New Birth one day (sacrafice that drive for an experience) and see for yourself b/c I could tell you my feelings about it all day, but it's up to you to decipher whether or not it's for you.
I don't believe you. I don't believe that you've "read the Bible many times". And I don't believe that anyone who in humility and sincerity truly searches for God becomes a "heathen".
Then don't. I don't have to explain myself to you, and I have no reason to lie about my beliefs or how I came about those beliefs.
Any time I hear (or read) a conversation peppered with "I grew up in church", "I grew up Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal,etc", refer to His majesty as "religion" and then use that as a measure of their "Christianity", I know they've never had an encounter with the true and living God. I also don't believe that the answer to everything is "in the Bible".
I grew up in the church. I was Baptist, I went to religious private school growing up. I have preachers in my family, including two uncles, one great uncle, and my father is a Gideon and deacon of the church. My grandfather and other uncles are deacons as well. You seem to be under the impression I am part of some atheist propaganda to convert people. I don't convert people, that isn't my mission or job. I just write a blog, you agree with some things, disagree with others. I guess since I have never spoke in tongues or caught the holy spirit, haven't met the true and living God. His majesty as you call God is a principle figure in the BAPTIST religion. There are many religions in this world, and I belonged to one of them. I guess you are saying religion is invalid, of course that contradicts your whole post.
I also don't believe that the answer to everything is "in the Bible". If you wanted to know my name, you'd ask me...not search the scriptures.
So the Bible is invalid, then why bother to use it? Why read from it? Why embrace it as your doctrine if it isn't a guide to lead you to a relationship with "His Majesty"? So your preacher is your reference for all things? What constitutes what you believe if your doctrine is invalid and not something you can use to find answers?
However I do believe that once you come to know Him, those questions don't hold as much importance.
Being rationale holds no importance? Having questions or confusion is not relevant to something that you consider a way of life? That is scary to me.
Read in it's proper context and accompanied by prayer the bible won't contradict itself.
Oh it does, over and over and over again. The Bible is full of contradictions, as well as many of "His Majestys" followers.
But to be an "angry, agnostic, atheistic, heathen" seems to me would make for a pretty miserable existence
I am not really angry, I am really not a heathen. I am not miserable, I am quite happy.
I love how you have me in your heart, but in the first few sentences of your response called me a liar. It is very Christian of you.
You just proved in your response pretty much every point I made. I think the only point that you didn't respond to is the one I will make again...that He believes in you even though you don't believe in Him. Incidentally, I believe you "told a lie". I never called you a liar. Big difference. One speaks of you action, the other your character. Peace!
You just proved in your response pretty much every point I made. I think the only point that you didn't respond to is the one I will make again...that He believes in you even though you don't believe in Him. Incidentally, I believe you "told a lie". I never called you a liar. Big difference. One speaks of you action, the other your character. Peace!
Seriously? My response proved every point you made how? I told you and I quote :
"Then don't. I don't have to explain myself to you, and I have no reason to lie about my beliefs or how I came about those beliefs."
I still feel that way. It hasn't changed.
You told me the Bible isn't your main doctrine, you didn't bother to answer one single question I posed to you.
To tell someone that they are lying is calling them a liar. It is still rude, and to pretend that you have me in your prayers after insulting me is a bit.....hypocritical.
I don't know if "he" exists, and just because you think you know "he" exists, doesn't mean "he" does exist. So if "he" exists and believes in me great, but it doesn't really matter as I have nothing to show to me that "he" currently exists. I don't think I can go around using nothing but false hope and a book that you even yourself admit does not have all the answers,to pretend I know how some supreme being feels about me. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true.
@starkitty50
Overall, I like the church (except for the parking and the ushers who act like they are being paid a six figure salary);my family has been going to see him for a long time (prior to the current location). People are going to have their own opinions and feelings towards religion, and various types of churches aren't above being looked down upon. With that being said, I would say come down to New Birth one day (sacrafice that drive for an experience) and see for yourself b/c I could tell you my feelings about it all day, but it's up to you to decipher whether or not it's for you.
Yes, I've heard various things both negative and positive about New Birth and Bishop Long, but I like to keep an open mind about things and people.
tweety said...
I'll bet that if you put 1/4 the time and effort into searching for God, studying the Word and asking Him to show you truth as you obviously have in observing churches & people that go to churches, you just might find The One who loves you more than you know. Just because there are a few knuckleheads in a family doesn't mean the head of the family is a knucklehead. I think your focus should be more on God and not people. How can someone be angry since 1976?!?
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Honestly, this is the problem with religion: People like this. This is a classic case of a fanatic. What is the difference between a Christian extremist and an Islamic extremist? Their gods have different names. Honestly, you put forth an effort to creating an account to come on someones blog to diss them because they don't share your religious belief that YOU are trying to force down, on someone's own blog.
And people can be angry for many reasons. This world is a fucked up place, but you know your religion lets you view things in rose colored glasses. I guess Ignorance is really bliss as you just proved.
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tweety said...
Let's just be transparent.I don't believe you. I don't believe that you've "read the Bible many times". And I don't believe that anyone who in humility and sincerity truly searches for God becomes a "heathen". Any time I hear (or read) a conversation peppered with "I grew up in church", "I grew up Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal,etc", refer to His majesty as "religion" and then use that as a measure of their "Christianity", I know they've never had an encounter with the true and living God. I also don't believe that the answer to everything is "in the Bible". If you wanted to know my name, you'd ask me...not search the scriptures. But I believe some things on our plane are beyond understanding and I humbly submit to that. And neither do I think there's anything wrong with questioning. However I do believe that once you come to know Him, those questions don't hold as much importance. Read in it's proper context and accompanied by prayer the bible won't contradict itself. I don't know it all or have all the answers either...that would make me more than human. But to be an "angry, agnostic, atheistic, heathen" seems to me would make for a pretty miserable existence. You come off as lovely lady with a high degree of intellect. Please know that He believes in you even though you don't believe in Him. I have you in my heart.
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Wow, you come on someone's blog and first call them a liar. and then finishing it off you patronize her with line I have you in my heart." This is very "Christian" of you.
"But I believe some things on our plane are beyond understanding and I humbly submit to that."
Again, maybe beyond YOUR understanding. Trust me, don't blame religion for you being ignorant and not knowing shit. First off, to quote you "Just because there are a few knuckleheads in a family doesn't mean the head of the family is a knucklehead." And second, I'm pretty sure a lot of illnesses and diseases were "beyond understanding" hundreds of years ago. What happened? God gave us his secrets? It's called evolution. Evolution of the our usage of the brain, of Knowledge, of society and how information and knowledge is transferred which led up to this ever expanding world. Change is not static, its forever in motion, I really hope that you could one day pick up a book, or get a library membership, or just have hunger to learn. But until then I have you in my heart.
I am not really angry, I am really not a heathen. I am not miserable, I am quite happy.
I love how you have me in your heart, but in the first few sentences of your response called me a liar. It is very Christian of you.
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wow, I should have read this, lol, sorry for the long post, but I don't like people who act like that (holier then thou), especially when they seek people out to attack. This strikes a nerve with me.
JDR sd:
"Honestly, this is the problem with religion: People like this. This is a classic case of a fanatic. What is the difference between a Christian extremist and an Islamic extremist? Their gods have different names."
Very well said.
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@ Sid,
Dont bother responding to people like Tweety. As JDR said, they are fanatics. Let her/him go on his/her way. You owe absolutely no explanation to him/her.
Honestly, this is the problem with religion: People like this. This is a classic case of a fanatic. What is the difference between a Christian extremist and an Islamic extremist? Their gods have different names. Honestly, you put forth an effort to creating an account to come on someones blog to diss them because they don't share your religious belief that YOU are trying to force down, on someone's own blog.
There is a book I bought a while back ago called "Lord Save Us From Your Followers" and there was also a documentary of the same name. The guy who wrote the book, a Christian basically said the biggest problem with Christianity today is the people within the religion. His biggest answer to the question as to "What is Christianity known for?" was "Hypocrisy". I didn't agree with all the author's views, obviously, but it was nice to see that there are Christians aware with the perceptions that the christian church seems to have. His approach was basically to realize that maybe we shouldn't let the extremists represent the whole.
Wow, you come on someone's blog and first call them a liar. and then finishing it off you patronize her with line I have you in my heart." This is very "Christian" of you.
Good to know we were on the same page.
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@ Sid, Dont bother responding to people like Tweety. As JDR said, they are fanatics. Let her/him go on his/her way. You owe absolutely no explanation to him/her.
Very true, religion is a touchy subject and even the thought that some people might divulge from a set belief system is offensive. My husband has warned me to leave religion alone, but I gotta be all controversial :)
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