"If I'm outside your building trying to catch a cab," he told Charlie Rose, "they're not saying, 'Oh, there's a mixed race guy."
-Barack Obama
This man is my problem with the biracial/multiracial movement. I have said this before, I will say it again. MOST BLACKS IN AMERICA are multi-racial. Most of us with slave ancestry are mixed. Since I have gone natural, people often ask me what I mixed with due to my "multi-racial" hair texture, and I simply say black and black. There is no need to go back and claim the Native American and European American ancestry that does not claim me. Obama identifies a black man in America. I realize he has a white mother and African father, but he HIMSELF identifies with being black. So why is the multiracial/biracial movement upset at what Barack chooses to identify as? White people and biracial/multiracial people have been trying to point out what is obvious, he is biracial, but they seem hush hush on the fact that he identifies as black. It is just a way for some white people to justify how a black man managed to get into the white house, and for the biracial/multiracial movement people to claim a man who really doesn't want to be claimed.
Now being a black woman who is currently pregnant with my white husband's baby, I can't understand how anyone would be offended if someone assumed my child was black, or if my child was white. Obviously the baby with be both, but dang, why would that be offensive? If I know what my child is, why should I care what others think about my baby? I don't give a damn what others think about my relationship with my husband, if I did, I would be in trouble.
I hate the assumption that being mixed race is a recent thing and didn't occur until black men and white women got together. Since the inception of this country, white men and black women have been making babies. The early miscegenation laws were targeted to prevent white men from sexing black women, not black men towards white women. Back in the days of segregation mixed race folks sat on the back of the bus with black folks, so it didn't really matter, to many white people which parent was white, you were black in their eyes. In fact, many white people regardless of the belief, still hold on to that mindset. The racist jokes and comments made about Obama were not about his whiteness, but his blackness.
I think another issue I have with the biracial multiracial movement is this, there is much venom towards the black community, but never the same venom shared with the white people, as if these people's goal is to distance themselves from being black and assimilate into whiteness. I get tired of hearing how evil black people are, and how badly people treated them. Growing up in predominantly white areas, I can say not all white people are pleasant and loving. Some are intentionally mean, others are just ignorant and offensive. Not all whites are that way, but I would hate to think all blacks are like the blacks I ran into during my summers at the YWCA, where my mother tried to have me exposed to more black people, or to the black kids in middle school who taunted me, or even some of the crazy black folks in college. Maybe it is because I have learned to surround myself with black people who tend to be a bit more like me, or ones that are accepting of diversity of the black race and don't fall into the stereotypes of black people all being poor and from the ghetto, speaking ebonics. I got treated badly by both blacks and whites. I have experienced racism from asians and hispanics. So why would I assimilate to any of those cultures or embrace the stereotypes, if I don't want to be stereotyped myself?
87 comments:
Firstly congratulations on your pregnancy.
Secondly, I really identify with you in your last paragraph. It reminds me of my mother sending me to summer camps in predominantly black neighborhoods because my schools were always predominantly white. I never liked being made to feel like something was wrong with me because of who I chose as friends. I think a lot of black people endure identity crises at the hands of others and so mixed race/biracial individuals aren't all that special in that regard.
Ultimately, you identify with whomever you identify. And if as a mixed race person you want to identify both sides that's cool -- but they shouldn't be forced to pick a side if they don't want to. It's their life, their identity. At the same time no one should identify with any one group at the "expense" of another.
I think it's high time we learned to let individuals be individuals and not give them a hard time for not making the specific decisions we think we would if we lived their lives. Like T.I. said, "you can't expect me to think like you when my life isn't like yours..."
Here's the question I pose to you: What if the reverse of what you are saying was true? What if someone told you" your child will be white-beginning and end of story?"
"but they shouldn't be forced to pick a side if they don't want to"
But that is the argument being made: you choose one or the other. The one drop rule has done its job well, and that is why the number of these children will remain small: at least the number from black women and white men.
Hmmm, where to start;
Guy in the video just wants to call everyone stupid without helping anyone overcome thier stupidity. This cancels him out as a source of anything but background noise to this conversation.
Sid, you express your frustration with what you call the biracial movement and speak of white people pointing out Mr. President's white heritage. You go on to explain that they point this out as a way to explain how a black man got that office.
This being your story, I can't dissagree that someone you know or have seen, feels this way, but in my experiance, and with my background (I am after all the spokesman for all white men you'll recall), I have seen his white parentage pointed out as more a part of the sensitive white ego that doesn't like to be ignored and sees his claiming to be black as a slap to his grandparents.
Now this could be a subject for an entirely new post, but I have heard only a scattered few, and all were previously shown to be the "crackpot" kind of racist, try to put forward that Barack only got there because he was raised by white folk, and since they are "crackpot" or those who have set thier feet in cement, I ignore them and assume most treat him like the crazy uncle we all ignore.
Sure most African-Americans have some "mixture" in geneology. This may be pertinant in a biological discussion but this post is cultural.
It is very easy to find pictures of my family and I assume you have seen them. My wife has been frustrated by people assuming she is mixed and by your comments you seem to share her frustration. Her father and mother are black, her aunts and uncles are all black, her grandparents are black. I'm sure something else got in there somewhere, Grandma is form New Orleans and is very light, but she is as culturally black as anyone can be, as is my wife. She does not identify as mixed.
You have seen my daughters? You and many others, including Mr. President, comment on how others identify you, or how the law once used the one drop rule.
How would you assume others would identify my girls if never seeing either parent?
sure, who cares what others think... little kids do. Little kids want acceptance and take many cues from peers. How will they identify her and how will she react?
I'm not quite sure how she will react, but while she is little she looks to my wife and I for answers, as will your child. What do I say and what do I teach?
My girls are mixed. Or biracial, same diff.
Why? Because my wife and I are both present. Because we want our girls to recognize us both, and learn that while the two sides of her family look and act different, she is a part of both of them.
Again, she is a part of both of them.
Later on in life she will most likely come up with her own ideas and self identify as she pleases. Before she comes to this I have a serious resposability to teach her not to place a VALUE on color. To not elevate one group over the other and love both, because her being mixed is not a question of biology or genes, it his her immediate family.
Coon! That is the first word that popped into my mind when I heard the gentleman in your embedded video, speak. Now that is not a term that I like to use often (like fine china I reserve it for special occasions and special [simple] people). My definition of coon is someone (usually a person of color) who should know better (and indeed probably does know better) but through words or deeds, makes it appear he/she doesn't. What gets me is the fact that through out that video and others that he's made, he talks about black people as if he is an outsider looking in. Coon! That's all I have to say about him.
The nerve of this dude, to blame black people for the fact that Obama is referred to as the first Black President. Like it is our fault that Barry sees himself as a black man married to a black woman and raising two black daughters. Yes, he does have a white mother, but as Barry stated himself your pedigree won't make a cab stop for you if look like just another "brotha".
It is not for any socially constructed racial group in the human family to claim anyone. That determination belongs to the individual. As you said, a majority of African-Americans are bi/multiracial, but in American we are still seen as black. Indeed, we identify as black not because of any color classification alone (many of our great black leaders in the past physically appeared white), but also because of a collective mind state that could only be formed in this country (given its horrible racial history). That is how Obama came to view himself as a black man (along with many others of biracial parentage), and the coo- I mean the dude in the video needs to just deal with it instead of trying to co-opt a champion for his "new race".
P.S. "Obama is bi-racial and he needs to start acting like it!" What does that even mean? How do you act bi-racial (or black, or white for that matter)!?
In 2005 a group of mixed race individuals from an advocacy group called MAVIN interviewed the then senator Barak Obama. They asked him about the mixed race movement, and his opinions on it.
What Obama said, I believe was an elegant answer. He told the MAVIN representatives. This video shows his advice and challenge to the mixed race advocates, and shows how MAVIN is responding to his challenge. Let me know what you think.
http://paradocsproductions.blogspot.com/2009/01/mavin-inauguration-party.html
Siddity, have you seen the lifetime movie, "What Color is Love?" I found it to be mildly offensive, the whole plot of the story. Here's a synopsis: Basically a young ww knowingly has an affair w/ a married bm who is a pro-athlete has a baby by him and ends up in a custody battle. I just wanted to know if you've seen it and your thoughts on it.
A. Smith,
Very well put. I stongly agree that each individual human being has the right to identify themselves ANY WAY THEY WANT and shouldn't be FORCED TO PICK A SIDE OR IDENTIFY WITH ANY ONE GROUP "AT THE EXPENSE" OF ANOTHER. Also, THE RACISM OF OTHERS shouldn't DETERMINE how a human being identifies themselves. After all, RACISM IS NOT RATIONAL AND IT NEVER WILL BE.
In "Dreams from my Father" Obama talks about going to a meeting for black people while he was in college. He invited a biracial girl to come along with him. She said she wasn't black, she was biracial. The tone in which he relates this story is telling. He self identifies as African American.
Siditty, great post as usual. I was over at someone blog and had this same very arguement. He is a biracial individual and refuses to see Obama as a black man even when pointed out that this is how Obama identifies.
I agree with you it is really bizarre maybe to piss off all the biracial people black folks should all start walking around claiming their biracial hertiage.
It is what it is I think too many people are setting it up to be a color caste system again. And we all know how well that worked out the last time for black folks. (side eye)
Siditty, great post as usual. I was over at someone blog and had this same very arguement. He is a biracial individual and refuses to see Obama as a black man even when pointed out that this is how Obama identifies.
I agree with you it is really bizarre maybe to piss off all the biracial people black folks should all start walking around claiming their biracial hertiage.
It is what it is I think too many people are setting it up to be a color caste system again. And we all know how well that worked out the last time for black folks. (side eye)
I think a lot of black people endure identity crises at the hands of others and so mixed race/biracial individuals aren't all that special in that regard.
Exactly, it is a shared struggle. I think people, regardless of race, due to culture, ethnicity, even religion go through this.
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Here's the question I pose to you: What if the reverse of what you are saying was true? What if someone told you" your child will be white-beginning and end of story?"
There will be people who will assume that and to them I say whatever floats your boat. I know what my child will be. Much like people have told me due to my color that I am less intelligent, unattractive, and prone to crime, I can't change their mind, I know the truth.
But that is the argument being made: you choose one or the other. The one drop rule has done its job well, and that is why the number of these children will remain small: at least the number from black women and white men.
The problem is that black people for the most part are mixed, we aren't some small miniscule number. Mixed people have always existed. They just assimilated or identified with black. The numbers haven't increased or decreased. The way they identified changed. I will say maybe the number of white men and black women numbers of offspring have decreased because at one time, it was at an all time high to the point laws were enacted to stop it.
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Guy in the video just wants to call everyone stupid without helping anyone overcome thier stupidity. This cancels him out as a source of anything but background noise to this conversation.
Exactly.
Sid, you express your frustration with what you call the biracial movement and speak of white people pointing out Mr. President's white heritage. You go on to explain that they point this out as a way to explain how a black man got that office.
I do think that if Barack Obama was a black man born and raised in Alabama the color of Yaphet Khotto, they might not be as open to the idea of voting for him. Hell a lot of white people had problems voting for a half black man. Thankfully, a lot of white people didn't give a damn.
How would you assume others would identify my girls if never seeing either parent?
This might sound bad, but I would assume they were black, if I knew they were American, if I wasn't so sure of the country of origin, I would assume indian asian, multi-racial, or Sri Lankan. I have family that looks like that, that identifies as black, but that is what we call in our family the creole coming out, meaning they are probably mixed with black, native american, and french ancestry. We have people with straight hair and the blackest of skin in our family. The lightest of skin and the broadest of noses, we don't reach back and try to figure out where it came from, we just know we were slaves, and we sat in the back of the bus back in the day.
My problem with this is that Barack Obama himself identifies as black, and this movement refuses to acknowledge what he calls himself.
I will say maybe the number of white men and black women numbers of offspring have decreased because at one time, it was at an all time high to the point laws were enacted to stop it.
Those women were slaves, and of course had no say in their situation. Now that black women do have a say they much prefer a black father. Now you'd have to pass a law to keep black men and white women away from each, no the other away around.
The guy removed the video.
I think the issue of biracial identity is simpler than people make it. I said this before at C1's and will repeat it, biologically they are mixed but culturally they have a choice between white, black and biracial. The last one meaning they form social groups with each other and marry each other and there is nothing wrong with it. A biracial person needs to culturally identify with one of these groups very early on or else they will turn out into the tragic stereotype. I have met quite afew screwed up ones. The ones that irritate e the most are those that behave black around you, and change when white people come along. Quite repulsive. One needs to remain consistent. Otherwise you put off people.
I had a friend whose father was African and mum scottish. She despised Africans but married one. Needless to say the African left her for an African women. She was convinced she had raised his social standing because of what she called her white skin. LOL!
Her father died in a car accident and she suffers from severe depression. After knowing her and her siblings for a while, I realized they were all suffering from guilt over their father because they were racist towards him. He had long seperated from their mother.
She was shocked when I pointed this out to her.
I think it is important for the black parent to give the children a solid foundation. And in most cases this means raising them black. It seems a lot less messy that way.
I go very slow with biracial people. Until I see how they behave around whites, I don't assume they are black or we have anything in common. After all this system is designed for them to be a step above black.
So until one "comes down to my level" I am not assuming they are part of me. Just like white privilage, one needs alot of courage to not take advantage of half white privilage. So to me I think the choice is really up to them, not for society to decide on who they identify as.
Great Post Siditty!! First off, as a natural representing, I don't understand this whole idea of you can only be mixed in order to have naturally curly hair. Its BS. I'm Liberian-American and I have many natural cousins with curly hair. Yes, other Africans can have curly hair too, not only Somalians and Ethiopians, lol. Seriously, I'm sooo sick an tired of the "you must be mixed because..."
But I'm gonna have to RESPECTFULLY disagree with you and go with A.Smith and brohamass. I'm a single black woman open to ALL types of loving (lol). Not sure who my life long partner will be, but if he was white, I would raise my kids as BOTH. I believe that in this day and age the one-drop-rule has to stop from both black and white people. Okay, if it's Obama's choice to claim AA then fine. What frustrates me is when blk ppl call Tiger Woods a sell-out for not claiming them.
For me, all is see is colorism in the whole "who claims who". In as much as it annoyed me at times hearing some mix ppl, like Mariah Carey complain, I now can empathize with them. Some blacks want mix ppl to claim black when it benefits them (i.e when they're successful or when they "look black". But when mix women, who are suppose to claim their blackness, start dating the brothas, people get mad and say brothas are only going after light-skinned mixed girls. I've heard so many times it's great to see that Obama married a dark-skinned. I even heard that mess on another IR blog. What if Obama had married Soledad O'brian (from CNN), who claims her AA heritage, also went to Harvard and is mixed? I'm sure some would say that "they are out of touch"? Leave Obama out of this, what about average black men who marries someone like Soledad and some of us complain because mix is the "next best thing to white". But Soledad said she was black, lol?!? Seriously, the "who claiming who" makes colorism in the bc extremely messy!
Yes, you're right many mix ppl have gone through the same struggle as black. But at the same time, many blks have felt that they have had an easy pass. They get minority scholarships too, most of them are seen in MSM, etc. etc. Hence the reason for the whole ideal of "light-skinned is better" and the ignorant term "good hair". Also, I think we ALL have this ignorance that all mix people look black because they don't. Google Cash Warren (the husband of Jessica Alba). Lol, this boy's father is BLACK. The boy's half black and wears his hair spiked due to his texture...if you didn't know one, would take him for hispanic. Look at Mariah Carey. Now you wonder why mixed kids are confused, lol. I would be confused too if society was forcing me to call myself AA, when I really don't look like one, lol.
All I'm saying is that both my future husband and I will be fully involved in our children lives. I just pray that America/the world will get to point where my kids can say that they came from a loving Liberian, American, and whatever white household. I just don't want my kids to be called a sellout like Tiger Woods if they decide to claim everything. If my white husband and I invest in their future, then they should recognize their father as well as their mother. Genetics is quite deceiving! Those who may have physically look black may have more white in them (hence the recent study of blk Brazilians). You're not going to be able to please ppl. However, I'm tired of black people loosely using the term "sell-out" base on skin color and mannerisms and not credentials!
"It is what it is I think too many people are setting it up to be a color caste system again."
The color caste system is already there. One thing that struck me when I first came to the states was that almost all black couples on TV, the woman was always much lighter. I always looked out for someone like me, but little was there. And that is how I learnt about colorism. Its very real.
And don't get fooled for one sec, a lighter black has more open doors in this society than a dark one. Its part of this great society.
We all know Obama wouldn't have been elected if he was much darker. No way in hell.
Oh my Gawd you're pregnant!!! To be honest, I stopped reading after that announcement. Haha. CONGRATULATIONS!
I'm often asked; "What are you?"
"Black', I respond.
"Black and what?" is usually the next question.
But being "BLack" is enough.
The definition of "Black" seems to be a problem for many.
My definition of coon is someone (usually a person of color) who should know better (and indeed probably does know better) but through words or deeds, makes it appear he/she doesn't.
Don't feel bad, I felt the same way, but I didn't use that word, it just seemed like he had some misdirected anger. He had magic negro-itis. He felt he was different from the others.
As you said, a majority of African-Americans are bi/multiracial, but in American we are still seen as black.
That is my whole point. If we want to start changing the system, make it right for everyone. I bet you there are some black people who are literally biracial, where there are only 50% black, but because in history we don't have the luxury of tracing our ancestry, we will never know for sure.
Indeed, we identify as black not because of any color classification alone (many of our great black leaders in the past physically appeared white), but also because of a collective mind state that could only be formed in this country (given its horrible racial history).
You summed it up perfectly.
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Christen,
Awesome footage. I am linking it here.
I think I agree with Obama. I think that is my perception of the biracial/multiracial movement, there seems to be this need for exclusivity. Whenever I bring up the fact that most blacks are mixed, the answer usually I get says it is nominal, so it doesn't count, or they don't accept that because it should be based upon looks (which is crazy, I know many black people lighter and brighter with "european like" features than some biracial folks). It is like they seem offended that most blacks are just like them.
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Siddity, have you seen the lifetime movie, "What Color is Love?" I found it to be mildly offensive, the whole plot of the story. Here's a synopsis: Basically a young ww knowingly has an affair w/ a married bm who is a pro-athlete has a baby by him and ends up in a custody battle. I just wanted to know if you've seen it and your thoughts on it.
I saw a commercial for that mess, and I try to avoid lifetime like the plague. I am so tired of the helpless, victimless women against the big bad man that every lifetime movie seems to be about.
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I agree with you it is really bizarre maybe to piss off all the biracial people black folks should all start walking around claiming their biracial hertiage.
I have suggested that before, and it does piss off some biracial folks.
It is what it is I think too many people are setting it up to be a color caste system again. And we all know how well that worked out the last time for black folks. (side eye)
That is what it seems like to me as well.
I think anon misspelled my name like that on purpose.... wouldnt be the first time.
Is what you are determined by biology, society at large, or your culture as passed along by family?
"It may sound bad" but you would assume my kids are black?... why would that sound bad? I get asian all the time so sri Lanka wasn't a bad guess, Puerto Ricans seem to insist I'm lying when I deny that as her heritage.
How do you raise a kid as black, or white for that matter? Should I avoid my side of the family or tell her not to trust them, or that they don't like her, or to be ashamed of them, or that she doesn't belong with them?
This "belonging" seems to be at the heart of the issue. All of us sitting at our computers writing about who belongs where.
When we go to a family reunion with either side of the family I tell you she should belong in both, feel comfortable with both, be able to act appropriately with both, she is both.
Strangers will not see her as white, I know that. Many black people will not see her as one of them either. Wouldnt this duality of roles, or worse yet, lack of place, make it more important for the parents, the family to BE that identity?
Sid, your kid will have black family and white family...
which will the child belong too?
I can't see the vid anymore but back to the topic.
It seems to me people are talking about one thing but really discussing four different things at the same time.
There is:
Genes/DNA- (one "pure" ancestry or many)
Phenotype (How one appears which is influenced by the first factor and affects how one is treated socially)
Cultural Environment- (How one is raised and experiences the world which can be influenced by the first 2 factors)
Self-Identity (How one sees themselves which can be influenced by the first 3 factors).
P.S: I agree with grata's statement
P.S.S. I saw the new link: It never ceases to amaze me how Obama consistently "gets it".
what bothered me about "the color of love, " was that even though the ww sports groupie initially had an affair with the bm, throughout the whole damn movie the struggle somehow translated into the bw being a barrier and ofcourse she became the antagonist even though she didnt' do anything and the ww was the hero and the bm was let off the hook, it was just so ridiculous it really iritated me and the worst part was no one acknowledges how backward the whole movie really was. but anyway in terms of biracial, i have no problem with people embracing all their heritages. when people talk about identifying as black what i take that to mean is they emphasize and support the bc. you can do that and still honor your multicultural heritage. i have no problem with people considering themselves biracial the only time i get irritated is when people deny their black ancestry all together or allow people to say racist things about black in front of them and not do anything. that really pisses me off. even though i know genetically that a lot of "blacks," are intergenerationally mixed i can still understand biracial people feeling the need to identify as both because they have a direct link to their mixed ancestry. however it does also irritate me when people think mixing started w/ ww and bm when clearly it didnt the reason it bothers me is because its like you're denying a horrible part of our history that no one wants to acknowledge and i refuse to deny that part of our history. i think i read a study where its estimated the average african americna of slave descent ahs atleast 17-20% european admixture and im guessing in the south it probably more like 20-35%. that thing went on alot... and it didnt end with slavery, i also know that up to the civil rights era not one wm was ever convicted of raping a bw, never not once and i know for a fact that nonconsential sex went on between the two groups anyway, but no one believed the bw so it never went into record. but, miscegenation between bw/wm was alot more prevalent than people would like to believe and people need to start owning up to that.
but i completely understand your frustration with the whole " i'm biracial so i'm better than you regular black folks mentality," that is annoying, i really dont encounter any biracial folks that act that way, but if i did, you better believe i would be annoyed at that too.especially considering it was wp who invented the one drop rule and now somehow blacks are magically being accused of perpetuating that as if most white people accept biracial people whole-heartedly...and also like you mentioned genetically a "black person," could be 50% white or sometimes more than half white and still be called black simply because the mixing went on before black were allowed to claim their white ancestry so naturally in census records one thing will be listed, but DNA is going to say something totally different. I know plenty of biracial people who are darker than I am and I am not a "biracial," although I know we do have mixed ancestry. therefore to say that "biracial," people look more mixed than those black who are inter-generationally mixed is foolish because we all know genes can be dormant for years and shine through. i too have an array of shades, red hair, hazel, green eyes all throughout my family and we also have those who are dark browns, deep chocolates etc. so there are people in my family who could easily pass as "biracial," but are black, so that argument is illogical right there.
my question is do you think the tension stems from the fact that one group can claim their white heritage and benefit from the so-called "privilege," whereas the other group was basically left to the wind. do you think its the mentality that "if i can't claim it, neither can you..." that fuels the tension??
Wow this is depressing. Race, like Religion and Ethnicity is just another social construct devised to divide and conquer. How is Race different from Nationalism? Nationalism is a dangerous thing, but race is even more apparent then nationalism. Honestly, between the Religious war in the middle east, the ethnic conflicts in Eastern Europe and Africa, and Race Relations here, were bound to kill each other. It's funny we're so advanced that some people want to call us intelligent design, but what's really funny is that I've seen a Golden Retriever and Lab (who are actually from different races, unlike us) treat each other better, then we as humans do to each other. What is it about the human mind that makes us want to differentiate ourselves and even claim superiority from people who look, talk, or believe something different from us. And for as long as their is ignorance in this world there will always be race, religion, and nationality.
Just one other thought. Do you know how much more we would and could accomplish if we all cooperated and worked together. Look at how civilizations have advanced, and that's with a high amount of inefficiency from waste created because of the redundancy that comes from a lack of cooperation. Imagine if all the worlds resources were put to a common goal of raising the quality of life. Not wasted on fighting each other and destroying things that will later need to be rebuilt. I don't think humans actually want to be happy. We want conflict, chaos and misery, with some degree of control. If we truly achieved happiness, then what is truly left to be achieved? what is the purpose to go on then? Is it like living in paradise? What is paradise? Baudrillard said "Paradise is just paradise. Mournful, monotonous, and superficial though it may be, it is paradise." Does that mean that life would be great or just boring. Is this the reason we choose to pursue conflict.
Sorry for going off topic, I just kind of followed my stream of conscious.
Those women were slaves, and of course had no say in their situation. Now that black women do have a say they much prefer a black father. Now you'd have to pass a law to keep black men and white women away from each, no the other away around.
I think many black women are like men and women of other races, I think they prefer to stay within their race. I know several white men who wouldn't touch a black woman with a ten foot pole. I know some who would date asian, but not hispanic or black, or asian and hispanic, but not black. I know white women who will only date white men. I worked with a white woman with two biracial kids who after the relationship with their father swore off black men, and would only date white men. It could have been a product of her environment though. Her father was angry with her for marrying a black man, and treated the kids as obvious rejects, even though she and the kids lived with them. I worked with a black woman who had a child with a white man and outside of the man, who only has limited contact with the boy, the rest of his family rejects the kid and doesn't even acknowledge his existence, even though the child literally looks white. He calls her current boyfriend, a black man, daddy. In America tribalism is strong and isn't just limited to black women.
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I think it is important for the black parent to give the children a solid foundation. And in most cases this means raising them black. It seems a lot less messy that way.
I believe so as well, but not just because I need to keep the numbers of black people up in America, but because being black in america goes beyond skin color, it is a cultural thing, it has always been that way. We have always been different shades and different levels of black, some of us more white than black, some more black than white, but we were all in the same boat.
, I don't understand this whole idea of you can only be mixed in order to have naturally curly hair.
I don't either, I was shocked the first time someone commented to me about my hair and asked me what I was mixed with, what kills me is I get this question from black people mostly. I never will understand it. I didn't know until a few years ago my hair was supposedly mixed. My friend was in shock when she saw my hair wet, she told me it "hung down and looked loose", it didn't "draw up like regular black folks". I assumed most black folks hair did what mine did, of course most black folks hair I saw while wet typically was relaxed, it didn't cross my mind it would react differently natural.
What frustrates me is when blk ppl call Tiger Woods a sell-out for not claiming them.
Black folks call Tiger a sell out for other reasons aside from what he claims, even though I still don't buy the caublasian thing myself. His daddy looks like a regular black man to me, he had to reach to get the caucasian and indian. Plus knowing how indians currently are trying to banish black people out of their nations and tribes, even those of us with actual direct traceable ancestry, I don't really understand claiming native american at all in this day and age, even those of us who are able to trace that ancestry.
Some blacks want mix ppl to claim black when it benefits them (i.e when they're successful or when they "look black". But when mix women, who are suppose to claim their blackness, start dating the brothas, people get mad and say brothas are only going after light-skinned mixed girls.
Blacks have been claiming mixed people way longer than white people have, white people were calling them black and pretending race mixing didn't exist up until a few decades ago. Now some of them want bygones to be bygones. Mixed race people were assimilated into the black community, because many of us were mixed race ourselves.
In terms of colorism, go to youtube or blackvoices, you will hear black men who express their preferences for light, bright, close to white. There is a history of colorism within the black community, that black people don't want to discuss, and I think the biracial/multiracial movement is trying to go back to that racial construct. I am waiting for a brown paper bag test or blue vein test to start up in the movement. Some people do feel mixed equals better and that is part of the complex colorism and hatred that exists within the black community. I have family members that have been disowned for marrying "too dark". It was seen as marrying a step down, even when everyone in the equation was black, but you can't marry too white either, that makes you a sell out.
Soledad doesn't claim to be AA, she claims to be mixed race, and embraces it.
But at the same time, many blks have felt that they have had an easy pass.
Historically speaking within the black community, mixed race people have gotten a pass. Most HBCUs back in the day did brown paper bag tests for admissions. So did many black sororities and fraternities. Too black, meant you went worthy of being in certain social groups, being denied educational opportunities in some HBCU schools, and rejection within certain communities that were exclusive to those of a certain skin hue, and that was within the black community.
Cash Warren looks like a black creole, but again my perception is skewed because of my family and the area of the country I was raised.
I would be confused too if society was forcing me to call myself AA, when I really don't look like one, lol.
What does an AA look like? Tonya Lee Lewis, Vanessa Williams, and Anatole Broyard all had two black parents, and they look more biracial, than many biracial people I know. Mr. Broyard chose to pass as white the majority of his life, many black folks did. I have a cousin with two black parents who has light brown hair, blue eyes, and the whitest skin, but she is black, she identifies as such. My great grandmother had dark hair, white skin, and blue eyes, she had two black parents too, or so we think. She never thought to identify as other, she just identified as what she thought she was, which was black.
All I'm saying is that both my future husband and I will be fully involved in our children lives.
My husband will most definitely be involved in my current fetus baby's life. Obviously my child will know their father is white, but society will treat them culturally black. Black is not just about color in America, it is it's own complex culture, and it goes beyond what is shown on BET. Like Barack said, when he is hailing a cab, they aren't thinking look at that mixed guy when deciding whether to pick him up or not.
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The color caste system is already there. One thing that struck me when I first came to the states was that almost all black couples on TV, the woman was always much lighter. I always looked out for someone like me, but little was there. And that is how I learnt about colorism. Its very real.
There was a book a long time ago, called the Color Complex in which there was a study done to suggest that black men who marry black women tend to marry women who are lighter than themselves. That doesn't mean they all marry Tonya Lewis Lee look alikes, but they tend to marry those lighter.
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Oh my Gawd you're pregnant!!! To be honest, I stopped reading after that announcement. Haha. CONGRATULATIONS!
Thanks Emeritus :)
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'm often asked; "What are you?" "Black', I respond. "Black and what?" is usually the next question. But being "BLack" is enough. The definition of "Black" seems to be a problem for many.
It confuses people. I don't understand it. Like people never ever think me and my brother have the same father. I get asked that a lot when people see my bro because he is much lighter than me with hazel eyes, and when he was little it was worse because he was a blonde. No one believed we had the same father. My poor dad.
I think anon misspelled my name like that on purpose.... wouldnt be the first time.
I hope not, that is mean. I had to go back and scroll to look at it. She was on your side though :)
Is what you are determined by biology, society at large, or your culture as passed along by family?
As a black person I can say all three.
"It may sound bad" but you would assume my kids are black?... why would that sound bad? I get asian all the time so sri Lanka wasn't a bad guess, Puerto Ricans seem to insist I'm lying when I deny that as her heritage.
Some people get offended when their children are mistaken for something else. I had my huband's best friend's wife get upset when she told me her half hispanic baby looked more white than mexican, and I said to me she looks like a light skinned hispanic. She looks just like her father, except a little lighter. Her father is a dark skinned mexican, darker than my own brother, she looked in between. She didn't talk to me for two weeks after that.
How do you raise a kid as black, or white for that matter? Should I avoid my side of the family or tell her not to trust them, or that they don't like her, or to be ashamed of them, or that she doesn't belong with them?
The difference between raising a black kid and white kid is this. White kids are taught hard work is the key to success. Black kids are taught hard work and being better than any white around you so "the man" doesn't have any excuse not to promote you is the key to success.
When we go to a family reunion with either side of the family I tell you she should belong in both, feel comfortable with both, be able to act appropriately with both, she is both.
Your children do belong to both you and your wife. Let me ask you, if your daughters god forbid ran into some ignorant racist idiots, do you think they would attack their whiteness or their blackness. What would the racial epitaph be?
Sid, your kid will have black family and white family... which will the child belong too?
Both, but I know that if my fetus baby when it gets older is driving through a white neighborhood, I am going to teach it to put it's hand on the dash and don't move so the cops don't have an excuse to shoot them. That they are going to have to be conscious about how they behave in stores so to minimize being followed by security. That if they commit crimes be prepared to get a tougher sentence than the white friends that were committing the crimes with them.
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Seriously, that Lifetime Movie is sounding cornier and cornier. The white woman is upset the black woman and black man want custody of the child so they don't have to look at her for the next 18 years. Did they address how much child support she was seeking while fighting for custody? Why was the black woman seen as an antagonist, and the white woman seen as the victim, when the black woman was the victim. She didn't have a baby outside her marriage, he husband and the groupie did, so why is she the bad guy? The husband and the groupie were the bad guys, the child, and the black guy's family is the victim.
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.especially considering it was wp who invented the one drop rule and now somehow blacks are magically being accused of perpetuating that as if most white people accept biracial people whole-heartedly
That is part of my frustration with the whole idea.
I am and I am not a "biracial," although I know we do have mixed ancestry. therefore to say that "biracial," people look more mixed than those black who are inter-generationally mixed is foolish because we all know genes can be dormant for years and shine through.
For real. I see many "dusty" headed children with light skin and green eyes all the time with dark skinned parents with jet black hair.
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my question is do you think the tension stems from the fact that one group can claim their white heritage and benefit from the so-called "privilege," whereas the other group was basically left to the wind. do you think its the mentality that "if i can't claim it, neither can you..." that fuels the tension??
The tension comes from the fact that this movement is bringing up old skeletons from the closet. It is the brown paper bag/blue vein tests all over again. Except now instead of being an acceptable black, many don't in this mindset don't want to be black at all.
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I don't think humans actually want to be happy. We want conflict, chaos and misery, with some degree of control. If we truly achieved happiness, then what is truly left to be achieved?
I agree with this.
Sorry for going off topic, I just kind of followed my stream of conscious.
No problem, I always enjoy when you post
I agree with our President that biracial,multi-racial is simply seeking exclusivity. There are so many combinations which can be derived--Asian & White; Black & Hispanic; etc... None of these combinations have anything in common with one another culturally. There is no common history, no common experience. Personally, biracial/multi-racial has no context for me.
The underlining thing is that many in the biracial movement/multiracial movement have a HUGE problem with Black people. And it’s not just because of the one drop rule! They don’t want to be Black, they don’t want to be on the lower end of the white supremacist hierarchy! They just want their place in that hierarchy, which if they can be anything but Black, will provide them with a higher standing. They pretty much want to be whoever is at the top of the pyramid.
Lets not get it twisted biracial children are not going to build a bridge between white and Black people. Many biracials are racist towards Black people from what I have noticed. They tend to be fine with white people. And never seem to experience any bit of tension with white people only Black people, as if we invented the one drop rule. So lets not hold our breath for this bridge to serendipity, cause it’s not going to happen!
And if this movement is so hell bent on people choosing their identity why is it so bad if they choose to be Black? I’m also going to need biracials to stop using scholarships and benefits set up for Black people, or using us to get fame only to claim their biracial/ multiracial/cablinasian, when they’ve done using us for their own advancement.
I read a great post by Kahdija which puts a lot of things in context. It’s a must read
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2008/12/self-determination-part-1-my-dark.html
"And if this movement is so hell bent on people choosing their identity why is it so bad if they choose to be Black? I’m also going to need biracials to stop using scholarships and benefits set up for Black people, or using us to get fame only to claim their biracial/ multiracial/cablinasian, when they’ve done using us for their own advancement. "
That is why I think it is important for Biracials to form a firm cultural identity early on and not practice racial prostitution. It is quite off putting. I have seen these types that choose to be black when its convinient then biracial when its not.
I strongly feel that black people should encourage, especially Biracial people to identify as such.
Blacks are indirectly suffering from further discrimination and exercebating colorism by not encouraging them to do so. Biracials are being passed off as black. The media seems to only recognize Biracial Women and these are the ones representing us. Meanwhile the Black woman continues to suffer from under and misrepresentation. On their part the media can claim they are diverse and yet in actuality they are not.
For those Biracials wishing to identify black, can firmly root their identity by marrying black. Otherwise they are better off remaining with the Biracial identity or marrying white.
Those blacks that are mixed with various identities can also solidify a biracial identity for their children by marrying white or whatever.
For biracials their natural first choice of identity is Biracial. Anything else they have to aquire that through culturalization reproduction.
Hi Siditty,
I think the offense comes in that it bringing up someone's race is awkward. AT least to me.
My last child is pretty light. I took him recently to a salon and a lady there was saying 'your son is so white'
I felt awkward.
Was that a complement? An insult? How should one react to that?
I AM glad that my kids run the gamet of colors -I was wanting that just to snub those who like to categorize. and I also believe that is how things were in ancient past.
Anyway, good topic.
Folks have gotit all wrong in my opinion. Being black is simply the ethnic group that you belong to, its something that just is...it has nothing to do with how i talk or what music I listen to and crap like that. It's my ethnic identity..it's how my family celebrates, the foods we eat on special ocassions, things like that.
I have bi-ethnic or biracial children and I dont "one drop" them...as a matter of fact my daugther is very pale. But the reality is that she has a black mother and I will pass down my families traditions to her. And to put it plainly most will see her as black because her mother is black..no matter how pale she is or what she choose to identify as. Don't get me wrong, her father may instill his family traditions as well but the reality is i view my daugther as a black little girl and so does her dad...its doenst mean that she isnt 1/2 white, but she will identify ethnically as a black person, carrying on the traditions of my family.
Congrats on the baby!
This topic is truly sickening. I cringe every time someone talks about Obama's background. It's usually put into a stereotypical context. At Obama's inaugural ball Jamie Foxx stated that, "you know that's a Black president because of the way he was dancing." Obama is articulate and educated. That must be his White side. Come on!
This topic is for sociologist who like to study and over analyze racial identities. I do not blame Obama for not giving in to all the pressure to define himself. Obama and I have our ideological differences, but I admire his ability to ignore the garbage and not give in to the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; two noise-makers who will forever try to get Obama to prove his "Blackness".
Obama does not owe anybody an explanation or a formal statement about how he chooses to identify himself. He is whoever he says he is.
this may be a little off topic, but has anyone ever noticed that whenever a woman, mainly a non-bw is featured on the news its okay to just call that woman beautiful. i've heard repeatedly newscasters describe a woman, usually a ww as "an attractive young woman nearly drowned blah blah blah...." and i always think to myself, why is it that when it comes to the blonde, white woman its just accepted that she's attractive? why is it that everyone always says beauty is in the eye of beholder, except when it comes to certain types of women, then they're just beautiful by default??? that's so annoying and i consistently ask myself, if it were bw who actually was attractive, would they describe her as "an attractive young woman...." or would they just say "a young woman?" just subtle things like that i'm starting to notice and its quite irritating. who gives the stamp of approval that deems someone universally attractive by default?
Siditty,
Great topic and very relevant. I am writing a paper on colorism, and I think what many fail to realize is that colorism isn't limited to media portrayals and dating preferences. The research shows that very dark-skinned women (in most studies, there is a 5 point color scale ranging from very dark brown to very light brown) average 2.5 fewer years of schooling than very light skinned women, and for every change in shade (from very dark to progressively lighter) a Black woman earns, on average, roughly $1500 more per year. I think it's important to talk about these things, given that the implications of skin color aren't limited to areas that rely heavily on physical attraction, such as entertainment or dating/marriage. (I promise I will give citations for the articles tomorrow, but it's late and I don't want to disturb my roomie by pulling it out.)
I always wonder if these biracial ppl would be offended if they were always mistaken for white instead of black.
I'm willing to wager they wouldn't be trying to be biracial instead of white.
A biracial person needs to culturally identify with one of these groups very early on or else they will turn out into the tragic stereotype. I have met quite afew screwed up ones. I agree Grata. I am a walking odd ball as a black woman. My mom put in school for a year in Newark just being I was a little too "white". I have read the mixed race message boards like Mullato.org or the onedrop rule.org and all they do is talk badly about black people. They act like they are of a superior breed its sad. Back in the day,we all were lumped into the same category to white folks. It didn't matter how light or dark you we were all "n-words" somethings never change.
view my daugther as a black little girl and so does her dad...its doenst mean that she isnt 1/2 white, but she will identify ethnically as a black person, carrying on the traditions of my family.
So her European heritage will be dismissed and not carried on and her father's side of the family will be ignored: Here is the primary problem many men will have with an IR marriage. What man would be cool with the traditions of his family being ignored and ultimately ended?
Speaking of Tiger Woods. Did any of you catch his statement after the elections? It showed how important race or the lack thereof is importatnt to this guy.
While everyone was celebrating the first African American president, he said it was great to have a man of color in the White house. To me that sounded like a way of avoiding saying black or African American. A man of color can be Chinese, Egyptian, anything.
If only he wasn't so dark, we would let him get away with it. But he made the right choice for his children's mother. In afew generations his descendants may become white.
Siditty congrads on the baby on broad!!!
I have biracial cousins who are very well adjusted mainly because of the fact they accepted that they are mainly black not white. I feel sad to say this buts its like kids who are raised by white women who don't have a strong black male role model. Who can give them prospective into black culture or aren't close with the black husband side of the family always have self esteem issues and self identity issues. Although my cousins and I have a different culture than most African American, they have stated many times they would feel lost in society if they had only their Moms family to related to because they couldn’t understand the things those kids went through school or when kids call them the n word at a parties . Even one my cousins who looks really fair with hair down to her waist, the kids knew she wasn’t white and the first racial slur out there mouth are stuff that’s hurt the most like is her mother the maid and all sorts of things. My aunt is a very beautiful black woman who is accomplish in her career so I can’t image why these kids would say such things. One neighbor once accuses one of my guy cousins of stealing her lawn ornament and when she was giving the description she said the black boy across the street stole it. She didn’t say that biracial boy did it when he looks very mixed and she knows for a fact he is a biracial child. I mean the kid has red tone hair with gray eyes and the white lady could not care less because in her eyes he was simply a little black boy. Some biracial’s act like black people create and perpetrate the one drop rule they need to open their eyes and see that blacks are not the majority in this country and the ones upholding this are usually not black. Some Caucasian people can claim color blind all they want but believe me they see color the moment that person comes into their line of vision and act accordingly.
Anonymous I have notice this too I just chuck it up as the usual white women being place on pedestal standard she must be beautiful because she is a blond.
Also Woods further refered to Obama as Multi Racial. This guy was clearly projecting. Obama is not that Cablanasian nonsense. He is Biracial.
This whole Woods attitude reinforces what I already suspect. many of these black men that marry white women are trying to escape blackness.
Obviously Woods senior had a problem with blackness, he failed to pass on any sense of black pride to his son. Even if he has an eigth of it, its not something any healthy person should be ashamed of to the extent of steering away from the subject. Even if he acknowledged his blackness it wouldn't take away his medals but no, he can't upset his peers, LOL!
And that is why I am very cautious with Biracial people. Who knows what their parent's intent was? It may be inherent in them to steer away from blackness and breed into whiteness. Its for this reason that the BC should stop hanging on to them as black.
@Grata "practice racial prostitution"
I am sooo going to steal this phrase and use it, Today!
I agree with our President that biracial,multi-racial is simply seeking exclusivity. There are so many combinations which can be derived--Asian & White; Black & Hispanic; etc... None of these combinations have anything in common with one another culturally. There is no common history, no common experience. Personally, biracial/multi-racial has no context for me.
That is another issue I have with the movement, it seems so varied, so convoluted, there is no real reason it seems for the movement to exist.
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The underlining thing is that many in the biracial movement/multiracial movement have a HUGE problem with Black people. And it’s not just because of the one drop rule! They don’t want to be Black, they don’t want to be on the lower end of the white supremacist hierarchy
That is how I feel about it.
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Obama does not owe anybody an explanation or a formal statement about how he chooses to identify himself. He is whoever he says he is.
Exactly, and I think people of that movement are trying to make him the example of the biracial/multiracial movement and he really hasn't taken the bait.
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but has anyone ever noticed that whenever a woman, mainly a non-bw is featured on the news its okay to just call that woman beautiful. i've heard repeatedly newscasters describe a woman, usually a ww as "an attractive young woman nearly drowned blah blah blah...."
Yes whenever a white woman becomes missing or murdered, she is automatically a beauty queen and model. It seems that way every time, as if we are to assume their beauty makes it worse for them to disappear and if they had been ugly it wouldn't have been so tragic. That baffles me, and on the rare occasion when the media discusses a missing black woman (you know no one wants us, so there is no way we could get kidnapped or end up missing), they say nothing of her beauty.
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Jamesthegirl,
Yes colorism is still an issue within the community, but now it has been dismissed and assumed to be a relic of the past, when in fact it seems worse than ever, except now, people don't understand the origins of such things and pass it off as preference rather than something deeper.
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I always wonder if these biracial ppl would be offended if they were always mistaken for white instead of black. I'm willing to wager they wouldn't be trying to be biracial instead of white.
I agree.
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So her European heritage will be dismissed and not carried on and her father's side of the family will be ignored: Here is the primary problem many men will have with an IR marriage. What man would be cool with the traditions of his family being ignored and ultimately ended?
This is going to sound mean C1, but it is my truth. I hope I don't offend you. In the current situation, the perceptions of race, white people aren't running with open arms to black people to share their culture. To many white people, whiteness is the culture. My husband has no connection to his German roots, and his mother was born there, and speaks fluently, but she was assimilated into American culture when they moved here and never looked back. He doesn't have a connection to his English or Irish roots either. At least in the south, white is the culture, no matter what part of Europe you come from, there really isn't a connection. Perfect example of this is my husband's last business trip to New Orleans. He went to a company in which the people there made comments about not wanting to go to certain work sites because there were too many blacks. They assumed my husband and the project manager with him would laugh and/or agree, instead both him and the project manager looked in disbelief, and then my husband told them he didn't really have a concern about the amount of black people at any given site, considering he was married to me. They assumed because they were all the same color, they were all on the same page. They tried to connect to him strictly through his whiteness. They didn't know him from Adam, but yet felt comfortable talking like that to him.
My husband's side of the family won't be ignored, but at the same time, I can't see my child, even if they are light skinned being embraced or encouraged to spout off German and attend Oktoberfests. My husband doesn't do it, why would I assume my kids would? My kids will be exposed to whiteness simply by living in America, but as I have learned growing up, very few white people know or have an interest in black culture, aside from what they see on television, and few if any make the effort to learn. It is different, and it causes black people to look at the world differently than white people in some respects.
I don't feel I will ignore the whiteness, but I know that in the grand scheme of things, the racism of the world will focus on my child's black side than they will the white side. That is preparing them for life, not ignoring or denying the father in my opinion.
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One neighbor once accuses one of my guy cousins of stealing her lawn ornament and when she was giving the description she said the black boy across the street stole it. She didn’t say that biracial boy did it when he looks very mixed and she knows for a fact he is a biracial child. I mean the kid has red tone hair with gray eyes and the white lady could not care less because in her eyes he was simply a little black boy.
That is what I mean, white people really aren't ready to accept the concept of being biracial or multiracial any more than black people, but black people get the brunt of the verbal attacks when it comes to the biracial movement.
This is going to sound mean C1, but it is my truth.
That's between you and your husband.
That's between you and your husband.
Do you think that white people in America tend to bond over country of origin or skin color more? Is tribalism in America based upon nationality or skin tone more? Especially since white tend to intermix quite often with other whites of varying nationalities.
Sid,
First off: Congratulations on your pregnancy! I am thrilled for you and your hubby!
Now, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. As you and others have noted, not only is the majority of the slave-descended Black community multiracial, but the black community has always absorbed and embraced biracial and multiracial people, out of necessity if for no other reason. There has always been a color-based caste system within the community, but nevertheless, passing a paper bag test didn't allow you to live where you pleased, eat where you pleased, be educated where you pleased, or many other vestiges of white privilege reserved for those who passed or were identifiably white. Multiracial people were still considered black, and just because some people have short memories or were born too late, doesn't mean that white people have suddenly embraced multiracial heritage and it is blacks who are perpetuating the one-drop rule. Just like yours, my family is a range of skin shades, hair textures, eye colors, and body types. We are all black, and proud of it. My grandmother always said, "Blackness contains multitudes". This is the very reason Obama can identify as both black and biracial; he's connecting to the reality of the African American experience in this country.
As for the complaint that white fathers will be unable to pass on their culture and heritage to mixed race children who are raised to identify as black: sorry C1, but that's hogwash. Every black person in this world absorbs and navigates European culture every day of their lives, as it is the dominant culture in this world. If you have specific traditions associated with your ethnic heritage or country of origin, those can be passed on easily, but, as Sid pointed out, will your brown child be easily accepted at Oktoberfest or the Irish Festival? Whiteness is a culture in and of itself, only until recently it was an assumed culture without any academic investigation into how that cultural identification is formed or passed on. Blacks have always had to learn how to operate within it, so that fear of lost heritage is something of a myth. My bf and I have discussed this issue, and he has no problem with any child we had together being raised as both biracial and black, as he knows there is a difference between the identity nurtured within a family, that inculcated by a community, and that reinforced by society. There is no danger my child would not know or be fully engaged with their father, and they certainly would not be encouraged to deny one half of their heritage or family. But it is my responsibility to prepare them for the realities of this world, not the nirvana we have not yet achieved. They may self-identify as they wish when they attain the age to make those decisions. But until then, they will be raised as what they will be: both biracial and Black.
Do you think that white people in America tend to bond over country of origin or skin color more? Is tribalism in America based upon nationality or skin tone more? Especially since white tend to intermix quite often with other whites of varying nationalities.
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In my experiance, no. We, white people, don't bond on anything having to do with whiteness or nation of origin with the exception of some small immigrant enclaves. But in my mind that is not the point.
Much in black culture is a reaction to or stems from white racism. As a result many whites are not ever given an opportunity to even know anything about black culture, aside from TV, and are traditionally not welcome in embracing it if they wanted too.
This is just on easpect of culture clash that creates enmity between the races.
Oktoberfest participation should be an option to anybody. The question is will you raise a biracial kid who feels they have the option of attending if they wish, or is that just for white people?
Now of course this may be a predominantly white event with all the possible pitfalls, the person in question should be aware.... but that will be THIER reality.
There are cultural differences that have a less direct connection to nation of origin. Example:
Western white people are mostly of English descent with the more recent pioneer heritage (not talking about Texas but Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona etc.) This culture values restraint, general quiet, and the leave them/me alone unless you know or need me.
Black culture, in general, is much more free to express one's self. You dance because you feel like it not simnply to perform. You sing because you feel like it, less concerned about who is listening. There is a more general Southern standard of speaking to everyone you see as not to be rude... a direct contrast to the don't speak unless you know them.
My point to all this...
A person who's parentage is both these things should be able to navigate both, feel part of both, and understand both. To tell a person they only belong in one of these worlds automatically places a varied value system that is the root of racism and inequality.
Sure there will be struggle and problems when a mixed person mingles the two worlds but that is a choice the parents have already made.
When will progress begin if not with informed and directed parenting?
I believe that when the child is old enough, they should be able to choose which side they want to identify with. My 5-year-old says that he's brown, but then one day he says that he wants to be White like Daddy. I don't think that I should be concerned, although I had to correct him and say that being White isn't better than being brown and he's beautiful the way that he is. People will be ignorant and categorize your children. My older son looked White as an infant and I was mistaken for the nanny many times. It's about being comfortable with who you are and then telling your biracial children that they have the best of both worlds.
I'm guessing C1 you're not a fan of the so called "one-drop rule," which is fine. But in my opinion when someone says they want their biracial child to identify as black, i don't take that to mean deny my non-black father's heritage or deny the fact that i have white or non-b parent. i interpret that as understanding the history, the implications and the culture that stems from blackness. Since white/black are both concepts, the black experience is really a euphemism for the shared culture and experience which stems from the history of this country. thus, considering that the child will be a child of color, she is black in the sense of the shared experiences that come with being a "black," in america. you can identify as black and still celebrate your father's heritage. if he's irish-american, you can do the irish pride thing or german american, go ahead and do the german thing. but when someone identifies as black its really just a way of making the child aware of the fact that because of our history in this country that child should be prepared to face some of the same struggles and disadvantages that other blacks face. sure, alicia can go to swedish lessons with sandy,becky and get along fine, but when alicia walks out that door into the real world what is the perception going to be, will they know she's half swedish and half african american in all liklihood? when she's in school and the class is discussing racism and slavery or w/e and when everyone in the class looks at her and the other black kids out of the corner of eye, what is that going to mean to her? how will that impact her as a child if she doesn't understand her history and why she is being perceived a certain way?? Those type of things can really destroy a child if he/she is not grounded firmly. alicia knows she is half swedish no one can take that away from her, but she should also know that the black part of her alot of the times is going to shape her experiences often moreso than the swedish or non-black part of her. that's what i mean by that. you can embrace both heritages and still be aware of your "blackness," and the so-called stigma that comes with that as well. that's how i interpret that. as its been pointed out most black are already mixed, but its our culture and shared experiences that makes us "black," also remember originally blacks come from different cultures anyway, so when we were brought to the u.s as slaves, we really had little in common, other than our similar skin tones, but it was our struggle and the chains that bound us together in that struggle that fueled us to mesh our experiences together and create what is now "black culture," and the "black experience." thus, its not that difficult to understand where people are coming from when they say i want my child to identify as black, it simply is a euphemism for the shared struggle that they should be prepared to undertake as a person of color and belonging to a group that is perceived by many to be lower than others. that's my opinion on the matter...
also one more thing, when i was in HS there was a girl who had a filipino mother and white father. She looked tan, long dark hair and tanned skin and brown eyes. but, she was mistaken mostly if anything for an italian, or mediterranean, an "exotic white," perhaps, but white nonetheless. by the class she was mostly considered white and i believe she identified mostly as white. however, if an asian person referred to her as "asian," she didn't seem to mind. she didn't go around protesting, "i'm biracial, i'm not asian blah blah blah..." she seemed to be accepted as is. why does it seem like its only when the mixture involves black and white that it becomes and issue?? if this were truly, really about embracing both your cultures, why do some of these people get upset when they're called just black? you are black and you're also white. why do you have to be not black at all and biracial, when you are black, you're both?? i wonder if my filipino/white friend came out leaning more towards the filipino side in terms of appearance would she be as upset if she was mostly called asian?? or is it just a b/w thing. is it that you really truly want to embrace your culture or are you just trying to distance yourself from the blackness and the stigma of being black?? i mean can you really blame people for mistaking you for being black or calling you black, if that's how you look??!! how are they supposed to know? my friend looked like a tanned white person, so she was assumed to be white, but if she looked more filipino should be be offended if people assumed her to be that? i have a feeling she wouldn't care, why because there's not the same stigma attached to being asian as it is to being black. but with a black/white relationship or a black/anything relationship it's an issue...???
about this tiger woods buisness, i do not consider tiger to be a black man, mainly because he doesn't consider himself to be. although i don't really understand how when black + non-black= not black at all, and i find it irritating, truth be told if someone really wants to ignore their black heritage, they can do that. but, i remember when the comment was made about him not serving collard greens and chicken and he went on Oprah talking about how he gets offended when people call him black. I remember thinking okay, but even if you aren't black, isn't what he said inherently racist and rude to everyone regardless of what you consider yourself?? why should the fact that you're by your standards "not really black," make what he said any less offensive?? that's the type of behavior that to me says "Self-hatred," and borderline racism. i have no problem with a person of direct mixed heritage embracing all their heritages, but when you let people dog out part of who you are just because you're ashamed of that part of you, or consider yourself a separate entity from that group then that is really messed up and that's the problem i have with some people who distance themselves from the black part of them as much as possible and cling to the biracial identity in an attempt to elevate their status. that's my issue. that's why i feel when people say identify as black i honestly do not believe that equates to reject your other heritages. it's not about not wanting people to embrace all their identities or being proud of your mixed ancestry, its about respect. have respect for people. don't be ashamed of your black heritage just because some people see it as less than your others. don't' be an asshole and allow people to diss blacks in your face and think they're not speaking about you as well when they're doing it. wrong is wrong. You can be black and whatever else you are. you can be all about your asian heritage, your european heritage, your hispanic heritage and still respect the black heritage,and identify with the black experience. you do not have to choose, but you should also be prepared to face the challenges that come with being associated with the black side. you can arm yourself to face that struggle and not abandon your other cultures at the same time, its not a mutually exclusive thing and thats what people need to understand about when people say "identify with the black side," to me that does not necessarily mean reject all other ethnicities and i think that's a misconception that too many people have. they think they mean be black and completely deny that your also whatever else you are. i have a friend who is half german, half black and she identifies as black, but she knows what she is and she knows how some people might perceive her and is prepared to deal with those situations because he understand the black experience.
"I have read the mixed race message boards like Mullato.org or the onedrop rule.org and all they do is talk badly about black people. They act like they are of a superior breed its sad."
It is sad. But that is also because people in the black community treat them like they are better. They do have half white privilage. I have had many Biracial friends. And I personally was never impressed by their biraciality for serious cultural reasons. In some of our traditions they are seen as symbols of bad luck or omens. A man that marries one is said to be in for a life of misery and misfortune. But this is in some really traditional and somewhat backward cultural attitudes. These attitudes are wrong and I always knew that and that may be the reason I am not easily impressed by them. In school I always attracted them as friends, but later I realized why they were just comfortable with me.
My Mum looks could easily pass for biracial. So I am guessing they felt safe with me.
Some tribes can be down right hostile to them.
Human beings are truly something. Everyone wants to feel superior to the other. Its so stupid. There is the acceptable occassional ego boost that would not be bad, but people get so completely deluded that their appearance alone makes them superior. Its incredible.
I do appreciate biracial appearance. They have their own unique look that can sometimes be better than black or white. But does that make them Superior?
What makes one Superior any way?
For those having biracial children or planning to, beware that the work of raising those children is 4 times as hard as raising monoracial. (I am making words up).
As for the bad mouthing of blacks. LOL! That is their racism speaking. I guess they will have to bad mouth blacks into their superior position.
Hi Winnowill!!!!!! Long time no chat!!!! Is the boyfriend keeping you busy? :)
Thanks for the congrats. We are thrilled and scared to death at the same time.
Multiracial people were still considered black, and just because some people have short memories or were born too late, doesn't mean that white people have suddenly embraced multiracial heritage and it is blacks who are perpetuating the one-drop rule.
Exactly my point.
Every black person in this world absorbs and navigates European culture every day of their lives, as it is the dominant culture in this world. If you have specific traditions associated with your ethnic heritage or country of origin, those can be passed on easily, but, as Sid pointed out, will your brown child be easily accepted at Oktoberfest or the Irish Festival? Whiteness is a culture in and of itself, only until recently it was an assumed culture without any academic investigation into how that cultural identification is formed or passed on.
I feel the same way as well. There are people, much like the people I mentioned in the story with my husband who feel their shared interest was being white. I run into that often. People like Jovent are the extreme example of this, but it isn't all that uncommon for white people to have an us vs. them mentality based upon color instead of nationality.
as he knows there is a difference between the identity nurtured within a family, that inculcated by a community, and that reinforced by society. There is no danger my child would not know or be fully engaged with their father, and they certainly would not be encouraged to deny one half of their heritage or family. But it is my responsibility to prepare them for the realities of this world, not the nirvana we have not yet achieved.
That is my belief, I have no doubt in my mind that my husband and his side of his family will have a great impact on my child. I encourage and foster that, as I feel the father is just as important as the mother in child rearing, but I know the likelihood of my child being able to "escape" racist experiences will be slim to none. They might even experience it within their own family. Hell read any post about visiting my husband's family, and you will understand that.
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In my experiance, no. We, white people, don't bond on anything having to do with whiteness or nation of origin with the exception of some small immigrant enclaves. But in my mind that is not the point.
If white people don't bond over shared skin color, explain why most neighborhoods tend to be monoracial? The concept of sundown towns, where even now the percentage of blacks falls below 1% (like the town where our former President has decided to reside)? Majority white schools? The concept of white flight? The concept that American automatically means white person. Or why churches remain to this day heavily segregated? I know as late as the 1980s, my uncle was asked to leave a predominantly white church with his white wife because he didn't "belong".
Much in black culture is a reaction to or stems from white racism. As a result many whites are not ever given an opportunity to even know anything about black culture, aside from TV, and are traditionally not welcome in embracing it if they wanted too. This is just on easpect of culture clash that creates enmity between the races.
I think that is the perception, white people are welcome, it is just most don't care or bother to even try to learn about black culture. I think there are some idiots who will feel offended, but others who won't care.
Oktoberfest participation should be an option to anybody. The question is will you raise a biracial kid who feels they have the option of attending if they wish, or is that just for white people?
I think people of any race can go to an Oktoberfest and watch the traditions, but not participate in them. I have been to a few Oktoberfests and Czech festivals in my time, but I have yet to see a person of color don Dirndl or Lederhosen and perform in dances and or other cultural performances. We are allowed to watch, but not participate.
There is a more general Southern standard of speaking to everyone you see as not to be rude... a direct contrast to the don't speak unless you know them.
I would say that is true. Black people (except in Dallas for some reason, maybe it is the northern transplants) but we always do at least a nod to another black person to acknowledge them. My husband finds it crazy I say hi to people I don't know or that I smile at folks, that is just how I was raised. He was raised more keep it to yourself.
Sure there will be struggle and problems when a mixed person mingles the two worlds but that is a choice the parents have already made.
Yes but being black or identified as such has it's own set of problems. Within my household we can shelter our child, teach them love, teach them our culture, but once they are exposed to the outside world, I don't want them to think that the world is going to be the same exact way. I don't want them set up for failure because I didn't teach them the reality of the world that we live in. I am not saying I am going to encourage fetus baby to hate all white people and be scared of them, or that they need to dismiss their father all together, but that the likelihood of someone calling them a white derogatory terms vs. a black derogatory term is slim. I don't believe in pretending racism doesn't exist and won't affect them. It will, that is the cold, hard, and painful fact of it all. Maybe not to the extent it affected me, or my parents before me, but it will. Race still matters, even with Barack in the white house.
But in my opinion when someone says they want their biracial child to identify as black, i don't take that to mean deny my non-black father's heritage or deny the fact that i have white or non-b parent. i interpret that as understanding the history, the implications and the culture that stems from blackness. Since white/black are both concepts, the black experience is really a euphemism for the shared culture and experience which stems from the history of this country. thus, considering that the child will be a child of color, she is black in the sense of the shared experiences that come with being a "black," in america. you can identify as black and still celebrate your father's heritage.
Exactly. That is my point. I don't want my child to deny any part of themselves, it is just that the current system in place, they can't play "best of both worlds", they will be forced to choose.
if he's irish-american, you can do the irish pride thing or german american, go ahead and do the german thing. but when someone identifies as black its really just a way of making the child aware of the fact that because of our history in this country that child should be prepared to face some of the same struggles and disadvantages that other blacks face.
Exactly.
when she's in school and the class is discussing racism and slavery or w/e and when everyone in the class looks at her and the other black kids out of the corner of eye, what is that going to mean to her? how will that impact her as a child if she doesn't understand her history and why she is being perceived a certain way?? Those type of things can really destroy a child if he/she is not grounded firmly. alicia knows she is half swedish no one can take that away from her, but she should also know that the black part of her alot of the times is going to shape her experiences often moreso than the swedish or non-black part of her.
You are so on point with this.
also remember originally blacks come from different cultures anyway, so when we were brought to the u.s as slaves, we really had little in common, other than our similar skin tones, but it was our struggle and the chains that bound us together in that struggle that fueled us to mesh our experiences together and create what is now "black culture," and the "black experience." thus, its not that difficult to understand where people are coming from when they say i want my child to identify as black, it simply is a euphemism for the shared struggle that they should be prepared to undertake as a person of color and belonging to a group that is perceived by many to be lower than others.
I should just copy and paste your whole entire post and just say I agree. It is perfect.
why does it seem like its only when the mixture involves black and white that it becomes and issue?? if this were truly, really about embracing both your cultures, why do some of these people get upset when they're called just black? you are black and you're also white. why do you have to be not black at all and biracial, when you are black, you're both??
Because it is all about the one drop rule and the history of black and whites in America.
i remember when the comment was made about him not serving collard greens and chicken and he went on Oprah talking about how he gets offended when people call him black. I remember thinking okay, but even if you aren't black, isn't what he said inherently racist and rude to everyone regardless of what you consider yourself?? why should the fact that you're by your standards "not really black," make what he said any less offensive?? that's the type of behavior that to me says "Self-hatred," and borderline racism.
I remember that incident, and he did seem more upset the guy assumed him to be all black and that the racism was focused on his blackness vs. his asian heritage or american indian or caucasian. The man (Fuzzy Zoeller) referred to him as a little boy and urged him not to serve fried chicken and collared greens at some dinner, and he was most offended that the man assumed he was black? I didn't understand Tiger on that one, and that always kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
It is also a perfect example of what I mean when a person, no matter how they are mixed, once black is in the equation to people of all races, they are black. He didn't tell him not to serve pad thai in honor of Tiger's mother and that heritage. He went right for Tiger's blackness. Would he have told a Swedish golfer not to serve pickled herring? Would the his race even be mentioned?
Siditty,
We have different opinions on the subject and there's really not more to say.
Brohammas,
I would have to disagree, there is a white culture. If you've spent time in a black community or Asian etc. You'll see it's a different world. White people worship together, live together, as Sid said in mostly monoracial environments and, share beliefs that are often very different from blacks. Our outlook is still very much rooted in a western, European belief system that is often the opposite from what African Americans and those from the east believe.
Hi. When you said "there is no need to go back and claim the Native American and European American ancestry that does not claim me" you made a point that encourages me to continue to defend my biracial identity. Your Euro ancestry may not claim you, but mine does. It claimed me every time my white dad picked me up from school, took me to work with him, took me to Europe on family vacations. When he calls me on the phone, sings with me at weddings, and watches my videos because he wants to know who I really am and what parts of himself he sees in here. THAT is the main, and perhaps only difference, between 1st generation biracials and intergenerationally mixed "blacks". But it's a big difference. Someone commented about having a fair relative who could pass for white, but doesn't. She i.d.s as black. Her parents are black. She is steeped in black culture whatever version(s) of it she was surrounded by. It would feel weird for her to claim anything else no matter what she looks like. Same for me. I could pass for black, but it doesn't feel right because I know (even if no one else does) that I come from white too. I love white too. Even if most white people don't know it. I know it. It's who I am. And who I say I am has got to have more validity than what most people say I am. I don't live with most people. I live with me.
when you said "There is no need to go back and claim the Native American and European American ancestry that does not claim me." you made a point that encourages me to continue to defend my biracial identity. Your Euro ancestry may not claim you, but mine does. It claimed me every time my white dad picked me up from school, took me to work with him, took me to Europe on family vacations. When he calls me on the phone, sings with me at weddings, and watches my videos because he wants to know who I really am and what parts of himself he sees in here. THAT is the main and perhaps only difference between 1st generation biracials and intergenerationally mixed "blacks". But it's a big difference. Someone commented about having a fair relative who could pass for white, but doesn't. She i.d.s as black. Her parents are black. She is steeped in black culture whatever version(s) of it she was surrounded by. It would feel weird for her to claim anything else no matter what she looks like. Same for me. I could pass for black, but it doesn't feel right because I know even if no one else does that I come from white too. I love white too. Even if most white people don't know it. I know it. It's who I am. And who I say I am has got to have more validity than what most people say I am. I don't live with most people. I live with me.
C1
you may have missunderstood when I said white people don't bond on whitenes or nation of origin.
I agree with you, there is very much white culture, but unlike many of the other cultures you mentioned, whites do not automatically gather on grounds of color alone... not consciously at least. Point being Oktoberfest is not part of my culture, despite those guys being white. I have no reason to think I would be welcomed at an Irish festival simply because they are white too.
Now a black person at those things may feel automatically out of place, understood, but I do not naturally feel included.
I went on to point out a difference in white and black cultures in acceptable forms of self expression. I understand the difference and you an I are most likely closer to on the same page than not.
Those differences are a big patr of why I would consider my child biracial. My family is very different from my wife's. One is black, culturally, one is white, culturally. My children's experiance will be very little like mine, or my wife's. Our kids have a place reserved for them in both worlds.
We have different opinions on the subject and there's really not more to say.
Even though now you are completely turned off by the concept of a relationship with a black woman from all the recent stuff going on and me talking in my black militant talk, I still like you :) j/k
I would have to disagree, there is a white culture.
Good to know you and I still agree on some things :)
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Your Euro ancestry may not claim you, but mine does.
Most blacks European ancestry ends up claiming them....it ends up claiming them by showing up randomly in the gene pool. In my family we have the land in which we were slaves on gifted to us by the master, who incidentally looks a lot like some of my relatives. That explains the blonde hair my brother had growing up. My red hair I had through infancy. My hair texture, which per some isn't like most black folks. It shows up in my creole ancestry. It shows up in the papers I have tracing my Choctaw ancestry that proves my family wasn't just slaves on the reservation, but actual blood ties to the nation, even though the nation has over the last few years tried to kick out many of the black members saying they were just slaves and nothing more. It shows through when people who grew up in segregation not knowing their fathers, but knowing their father was not black. It shows up when you see fair skinned, blue eyed women identify as black, when we all know the chances of them being 100% african are slim to none. It shows up when you can indeed trace your European ancestry through DNA testing, only to have the family you are traced to still fight to reject you. It shows up in the historical racial hierarchy and intra-racism between black people which I feel fuels the biracial/multiracial people, at least in some aspects.
I am a fan of your videos on youtube, and remember you saying your mother told you as a child that black women would be jealous of you due to your hair and skin tone. To me that is my objection to the movement. That movement continues to perpetuate the intra-racism of black people that is a result of the legacy of racism as a result of white people. That movement, at least for those who are black and white and who live in America is an extension of that intra-racism in my opinion. I no where once said I would deny my husband's family or expect my child to reject his or her whiteness, I was just feel culturally I have to prepare them for America, which isn't where it needs to be race wise. It isn't a haven and bastion of racial equality, it improves over time, but it is very slow. Vidor, TX still exists. Black men are still being shot in the back while handcuffed by white police officers. I know that if I shop alone in certain stores I will get followed, and even though I have no criminal record, people will treat me as a criminal based upon my skin tone, or possibly assume I am a nanny to my own child. That is the reality of America.
Obama didn't really know his black father, but was raised by his white mother and white grandparents, what do you think formed his views to make him view himself as a black man?
In terms of relatives passing, but not, my great grandmothers were immersed in black culture because white culture up until the 1960s was not inclusive of partially black people, even if said people were purportedly only 25% black. Susie Gulliory Phipps is a perfect example of why I have an issue of yet adding another racial classification to the system. I also have an issue with biracial people who reject the concept of being just black to want to partake in scholarships to schools that are targeted to blacks, who want to benefit from the black struggle for equality, but yet they want nothing to do with black people in general. That bothers me.
"I also have an issue with biracial people who reject the concept of being just black to want to partake in scholarships to schools that are targeted to blacks, who want to benefit from the black struggle for equality, but yet they want nothing to do with black people in general. That bothers me."
America's racial and color hierachy looks like its going no where. And as long as we have it in place we will always have the Biracial people wanting to take their rightful place in the system simply because they are half white. And I have no problem with them trying to claim that position even if the system is flawed. But I would prefer they stayed there and not fall back on blacks when they hit their own ceiling that awaits them.
When people hit a wall in this society they fall back on blacks. Even the Middle easterners have learnt to do this. The Jews seized on the opportunities the Civil Rights movement to advance their own interests.
If the Biracials want their own category, I think they should get it but like the rest they should not look back.
c1 is going to go get an asian woman after this isn't he? jk lol
c1 is going to go get an asian woman after this isn't he? jk lol
Anon,
I think so between the crazies harassing him and the crazy black women like me, he is swearing off the sistas :)
He is still my cybercrush though.
c1 is going to go get an asian woman after this isn't he? jk lol
I'm going over to Europe and gettin me a white woman!
Good to know you and I still agree on some things :)
You need to start talking about religon; so, we can agree about something again :)
Oh and don't worry... You didn't offend me: I don't get offended ;)
brohammas,
Don't worry man! The Irish are a great group of folks and won't mind. I go to the Hungarian festival every year and dance to Hungarian music and none of my family is from Hungary. However, I did go to the Marcus Garvey festival this year: That one I didn't participate in...
but it was our struggle and the chains that bound us together in that struggle that fueled us to mesh our experiences together and create what is now "black culture," and the "black experience."
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Nahhh. That was Massa's doing. Mixing up all the different cultures/languages made concerted scheming, planning ang plotting much more difficult.
Halle Berry id's as a Black woman but she also mentions often enough that her mama is a white woman so that no one forgets it. Same with Barack Obama. That seems to be the way for some biracials to openly acknowledge their mixed parentage ("Oh, I am Black...but did I mention my mama is a white lady?") without getting Blacks all enraged, insecure and unhappy over the 'B' word (Biracial).
Yeah I don't think C-1 likes the sistahs anymore.
C-1 it seems to me that you are adamant about the differences about blacks and whites. Maybe it's because you mentioned being raised in the midwest that you have such a divisive tone in your post here that I have never seen in your previous post. You seemed a little upset with Sid. I hope you guys are still cool.
However, I did go to the Marcus Garvey festival this year: That one I didn't participate in...
Yeah you still gotta soft spot for the sistas :) I will hold out hope for that single black woman out there :)
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Nahhh. That was Massa's doing. Mixing up all the different cultures/languages made concerted scheming, planning ang plotting much more difficult.
That is true, but in the end we all had the same struggle :)
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That seems to be the way for some biracials to openly acknowledge their mixed parentage ("Oh, I am Black...but did I mention my mama is a white lady?") without getting Blacks all enraged, insecure and unhappy over the 'B' word (Biracial).
No one gets offended are insecure at the word biracial, what we get offended at is the tone of superiority as well as the fight for many to elevate themselves above being "simply black" in the racial hierarchy.
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Yeah I don't think C-1 likes the sistahs anymore.
Hold out hope, I think some of us just might be too militant for him, but he will find a nice black woman to date, I just know it :)
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C-1 it seems to me that you are adamant about the differences about blacks and whites. Maybe it's because you mentioned being raised in the midwest that you have such a divisive tone in your post here that I have never seen in your previous post. You seemed a little upset with Sid. I hope you guys are still cool.
We're always cool. He is my cyber buddy :) C1 is just pointing out the obvious blacks and whites are different, not in a bad way, but the ideals are slightly different due to cultural differences. Growing up in white neighborhoods all my life, I saw it first hand, and many white kids noticed my family was different. The differences aren't drastic, but enough for people to notice, to drive a wedge for some.
C-1 it seems to me that you are adamant about the differences about blacks and whites. Maybe it's because you mentioned being raised in the midwest that you have such a divisive tone in your post here that I have never seen in your previous post. You seemed a little upset with Sid. I hope you guys are still cool.
Sorry if the tone came across as divisive: I'm just a very opinionated person. I'm not mad at Sid at all. She's a grown woman, and can make her own decisions. We are still buds!
i'm not really sure what c1 is upset about actually. Is he more offended about his child being called "black?" or that his heritage would be supposedly lost by the fact that his child would be called "black?" My take in simplefied terms is, why does it matter what the kid is called. Biracial, black,white, whatever. It is more important that the child is firmly grounded in their history in terms of the black side of them. they need to understand how the history of this country affects people's perceptions of blacks and how that will affect the child. In that sense the child is aware of his "blackness," and needs to respect and embrace that side of him with the mindset, that yes, he is whatever he calls himself, but be aware that by many he is just going to be black and he needs to learn to work with that and embrace that. He can do that and be in tune with his blackness and still call himself whatever the hell he wants and still honor his other heritages.i don't get what's so difficult about that... i don't really know too many people that would be offended if someone called themselves something other than just black if they still identified with and respected their "blackness," and respected black people and was emphathetic to the struggles of being a black person seeing as they are part of that struggle themselves. the issue comes when people deny blackness all together and try to distance themselves from black people and in the process degrade their blackness in an attempt to elevate themselves. as long as the kid knows their history as a black and whatever else person, why does it matter what they technically call themselves? its just crucial that they know their history as it relates to the black part of them and that they do not run or get offended when someone perceives them as just black.
C-1, I agree with you. If my child has two cultures, I will be sure to educate him/her the two cultures he/she's blessed with. There's nothing wrong with identifying yourself with two kind of races. I will not have my child to identify him/herself as black and ignore his/her white counterpart. He/she should call him/herself biracial simply because he/she is.
My.. There are a lot of he/she in here. lol
Hey Sid,
I found an interesting article on NewsWeek that might be of interest to you.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/181292
In my own little opinion. If I were married and had a kid with my nonblack husband, it would be very important to me that my kid acknowledges both races. Even though they may be considered black by society. I just feel it would be disrespectful to my spouse if his race were not recognized. Unfortunately ignorance and racism makes it hard for biracial kids to just say hey I am both forcing them to pick the side that seems to be more accepted by society. I am sick of it. It still should not keep people from falling in love and having babies with people of different races. I certainly do not give a damn about what society thinks and that is real talk.
Simone
The problem lies in what is Culture? What do the people on the blog actually mean when they use the word culture? How would everyone here define it? How is East and West culture so different? I have my own thoughts, but I'd rather here everyone else first. It's hard to argue on culture when there are over 100 meanings for culture. Maybe that's where the differences and disagreements lie, between the confusion and misunderstanding.
How is East and West culture so different?
Well, the west is Europe/United States and the east can refer to many different places; however, the east usually means Asia in the United States. This is a complicate discussion and not so much about east and west. Here's the culture definition I'm working from: it referred to distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.
Here is a cnn video of mixed race people in he Uk and how they identify.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/22/shubert.uk.mixed.race.trend.cnn?iref=videosearch
The guy in that video is so full of trophism, its annoying.
Continuing the discussion. I think what the biracial movement fails to see is that in less than 100 years majority of people will be multi racial. Therefore the position they seek will be quite irrelevant soon.
I remembered another biracial friend of mine. She was half Belgian and half African. She came for the first time to Africa and I was the first friend she made. The culture in which we lived was very open and welcoming. The guys obviously were falling all over themselves for her "exotic" looks. I knew these guys and how they think and I tried to protect her. Soon she started to believe she was better than the rest of us. And this is where Biracials make the mistake, especially those who come to Africa. Africans are very friendly and may treat you like you are bigger than you are. The worst you can do is to start believing it and treating them as less than you. She fell into that trap and I was no longer in her league of friends. However before that she had managed to sneek behind my back and date a guy that had been interested in me. I knew I wasn't going any where with him because he was the son of an infamous politician and I wanted nothing to do with that insane crowd. She thought she was more woman than me and when I left the country briefly, she started an affair with him. He treated her so badly, by the time he was done with her, her hair was literally falling out of her head. I met her after and she was so apologetic but in so much pain it was incredible, she looked anorexic. She eventually recovered and married a Swiss expart. I guess she realized that Africans did have some sense self respect. She moved to New york I believe. But from what I heard, she was unhappily married to the Swiss guy and was still mourning the African guy that did her wrong.
Moral of the story is that there is a real danger for Biracials to think they are more special than blacks. You simply can not have it both ways. If you want to hang onto your half white privilage in this system, remember that it is at the expense of blacks. And no one wants to be around someone that is part of the reason they are oppressed.
So that resentment is not simple jealpousy for your supposedly good hair and light skin (Believe it or not many of us wouldn't trade our skin tones and hair for anything though we still appreciate yours).
Its because you are a potential oppressor yourself. And pushing for biraciality signals that you are willing to perpetuate the same system that oppressed people like you but now are trying to beat it by claiming biraciality.
On the other hand I have no problem with a biracial person that hangs more to their white identity than the black one like Harold Ford. They are consistent. There is no clear biracial culture in the Western world, it just the physican nature. So you can't be black today and white tomorrow, that becomes racial prosititution and neither side likes that.
To completely embrace your biraciality, you have to break with blacks who you have historically identified as. The whites won't accept you. So if one needs to really identify as biracial, they have to form their own society where they define their rules with the knowledge of both cultures but running back and forth to either cultures just won't fly least of all with blacks.
C-1 do you really feel like talking about race will do nothing to help race relations? Part of me agrees with you and part of me thinks if we keep talking about it, eventually it will help. Who knows I remain optimistic for the sake of my niece and nephew. I have to believe it gets better.
C-1 do you really feel like talking about race will do nothing to help race relations? Part of me agrees with you and part of me thinks if we keep talking about it, eventually it will help. Who knows I remain optimistic for the sake of my niece and nephew. I have to believe it gets better.
C-1 do you really feel like talking about race will do nothing to help race relations? Part of me agrees with you and part of me thinks if we keep talking about it, eventually it will help. Who knows I remain optimistic for the sake of my niece and nephew. I have to believe it gets better.
I certainly do believe it Simone. Talk will not change deep seated beliefs, nor will it change history. However, I believe we face so many problems, perhaps race will be overshadowed for awhile.
You write about white people claiming Barack's white heritage, but as I remember, that was brought to the forefront not by white people trying to embrace him but by some black leaders trying to reject him as "not black enough"
hi siditty
congrats on your preganacy love :)
anyways i thought i'd post this extract from obama's autobiography: dreams of my father. It shows you really where obama's heads at on this matter.
Read the last paragraph in particular! Theres also another section of the book where he talks about this, this one paragraph which bascially sums up everything you said siditty (will post it up when i find it)
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pg 99-dreams from my father
"I didn’t have the luxury, I suppose, the certainty of the tribe. Grow up in Compton and survival becomes a revolutionary act...I had nothing to escape from except my own inner doubt. I was more like the black students who had grown up in the suburbs...You could spot them right away by the way they talked, the people they sat with in the cafeteria. When pressed, they would sputter and explain that they refused to be categorized. They weren’t defined by the color of their skin, they would tell you. They were individuals.
That’s how Joyce liked to talk. She was a good-looking woman, Joyce was, with her green eyes and honey skin and pouty lips...all the brothers were after her. One day I asked her if she was going to the Black Students’ Association meeting. She looked at me funny and then started shaking her head like a baby who doesn’t want what it sees on the spoon.
“I’m not black,” Joyce said. “I’m multiracial.” Then she started telling me about her father, who happened to be Italian and was the sweetest man in the world; and her mother, who happened to be part African and part French and part Native American and part something else. “Why should I have to choose between them?” she asked me. Her voice cracked, and I thought she was going to cry. “It’s not white people who are making me choose. Maybe it used to be that way, but now they’re willing to treat me like a person. No–it’s black people who always have to make everything racial. They’re the ones making me choose. They’re the ones who are telling me that I can’t be who I am...”
They, they, they. That’s the problem with people like Joyce. They talked about the richness of their multicultural heritage and it sounded real good, until you noticed that they avoided black people. It wasn’t a matter of conscious choice, necessarily, just a matter of gravitational pull, the way integration always worked, a one-way street."
well this is a very good post and I would have to say that I agree with it. I think too that the point you make, that negative and positive behavior, good and evil exists in humanity across the board is key. I think Obama's quote sums it up too, that it's about perception. I think at the same time, it's not like he denies his heritage or upbringing, so no one should be upset with that quote... And as you say, really, there is very little "racial purity" out there. And what an awful phase, with all it's Nazi implications.
I certainly do believe it Simone. Talk will not change deep seated beliefs, nor will it change history. However, I believe we face so many problems, perhaps race will be overshadowed for awhile.
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@C1
I hope you are right about that. Maybe the problems of the world can some way overshadow the ridiculousness of racism.
Since you feel this way C1, do you think this influences who you will end up marrying race wise? Do you think it would be easier to just have a family with someone of the same race than to marry someone different? I think for some people Interracial marriages could be a headache, much less raising biracial children. For me, I think love and understanding will get you through most things, especially if the union is very strong between a couple. I know that sounds all kumbaya, but I think it helps.
It's "mixed" people like this guy on youtube that give other mixed people a bad image.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOnhQeqq1pA
Kat,
You ain't never lied. The boy was actually calling black people n*gger, and said he is a white person trapped in a mixed person's body.
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