Thanks Yanmomma for showing me this story.
I always found it strange that it seemed that when miscegenation was illegal, the relationships between white men and black women were at an all time high, of course it could be said that most of these relationships were inequitable, with the white man having and maintaining power over the black woman. Yet, some of these relationships weren't always a result of rape or force. I always heard stories in my family about my great grandmother's father's but it was kept very hush hush. I knew my great grandmother and all six of her siblings had the same father, that my great great grandmother wasn't married to him, but they lived together in the backwoods of Louisiana for many years. We just passed it off as being "creole", that he was just high yellow and liked his women dark skinned. His children came out light as hell if I looked at my great grandmother and great great uncles and aunts, but for the most part the concept of him being white was unbeknownst to us.
Another story that kind of makes me think is Anatole Broyard, the book critic for the New York Times who passed as white literally until his death. His great grandfather was a white man who labeled himself black so that he could marry a free woman of color.
Now I was referred to this story about Clarence King, a geologist and mountaineer who was a descendant of signers of the Magna Carta. He led a double life in order to marry his wife, a former slave who he had five children with. He didn't even bother to tell his wife he was not black or mulatto, but white, and he passed himself off as a steelworker to explain his travels to her. He didn't reveal his true identity to her, until he was on his deathbed.
I find it odd that even though interracial relationships were blatantly outlawed and shunned upon for these men to enter the relationships that they did, they gave up their whiteness all for the sake of getting married. King pretty much gave up his privilege to marry and have children with a black women, privilege that probably had a greater more profound weight that white privilege of today.
Even with the past, and for King and Broyard their current situation in regards to race relations, they gave up their need to keep up appearances and status. What made this men of this time do this, when most white men aren't willing to do this in this day and age of post racial America? Why is it we rely upon history to describe the state of race relations between black women and white men, when it seems that even in history some white men were willing to rock the boat?
47 comments:
This is really interesting.
There is a book out, and I wish I were more diligent in tracking such information. Anyhow, the book is about the history of Laurens, SC, which is the "birthplace" of my family as it pertains to my mother's father's family.
The book makes mention of the relationship that my g.g.grandfather had with a black woman (my g.g.grandmother) much to the consternation of the locals.
He had been married twice to white women, with whom he had children and they (the wives) both died. He finally took up with "Julia Ann" (who may have still been a slave at that time, but information is difficult to come by) and was with her, as husband and wife, until he died.
Our family has traced and found the descendants from his first two marriages. They are not interested in contact with us. Par for the course, I'd say.
He was a German immigrant who came to America during the Palatine Emigration.
Siddity,
The fact that these WM during the era of slavery were willing to forego their White privilege, when the consequences for doing so were higher than they are now, clearly demonstrates that WM/NON-BM, TODAY, WHO CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY BW ARE DOING SO SOLELY BECAUSE OF COWARDICE AND RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES.
Great post!!
I had no idea about this, and now I want to learn now about it...thanks for sharing this with us!
Great post Siditty. I remember reading accounts of interracial relationships during slavery. Although most of the focus was on the forced nature of many of the relationships, there were some based on mutual love as well. I remember reading about one WM in the South who lived with BW (slave). They lived together as husband and wife, although they couldn't legally marry. When he died he left everything to her and their children in his will...ultimately the courts refused to give it to her since she wasn't seen as a person who could inherit property, but property herself.
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Re: laromana
"WM/NON-BM, TODAY, WHO CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY BW ARE DOING SO SOLELY BECAUSE OF COWARDICE AND RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES."
I actually disagree with this statement. Just because a non-bm doesn't date/marry BW doesn't mean they're a coward, racist or anti-BW. Is a BW who refuses to date/marry non-bm a coward and a racist? Perhaps they just tend to be attracted to a certain race.
Simple. Racism and too many choices for white men. Already society's racism is a disadvantage for BW
(Speaking of which, I just assembled 4 clerks at Staples and gave them a full blown lecture for singling me out and asking me to leave my backpack at the counter while some latino kid walked passed us wearing his. See that is why I hate stores?)
Any way, its obvious societiy's attitude toward's black women (including black men who give society the green light to go ahead). Add onto that buggage the fact that WM have access to everyone and everyone seems open to date them. Why bother with the troublesome BW?
I would imagine that in those days it was easier on the white man's part because the role of women were not much above that of a servant or slave. She would be subservient and obedient. Having a relationship with a black woman who is also equal would be a much greater threat to white supremacy.
American Black Chick in London,
To clarify, I'm referring to WM/NON-BM who CLAIM TO BE ATTRACTED TO BW BUT CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY THEM SOLELY BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK (WHILE BEING OPEN TO SERIOUS IRR'S WITH ALL OTHER NON-WW) AND FEAR WHAT SOCIETY MAY THINK OF THEM IF THEY ARE IN A SERIOUS IRR WITH A BW. In this day and age, when WM/NON-BM who choose to be in serious IRR'S with BW don't face the type of SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES WM DID WHEN SLAVERY EXISTED, it is COWARDLY/RACIST for a WM/NON-BM who REALLY LIKES BW TO USE THESE EXCUSES NOT TO DO SO.
I have NO ISSUE with ANYONE'S INDIVIDUAL RACIAL DATING PREFERENCES.
I've read about several cases during slavery where there were definitely exceptions to the rule. We visited a plantation in Jacksonville, Fl last summer and discovered a story about a slave master who married his Senegalese slave and had four children with her. He died, and she inherited the plantation and his money after taking his other family members to court. I found it to be a very interesting story.
Our family has traced and found the descendants from his first two marriages. They are not interested in contact with us. Par for the course, I'd say.
On my mother's other side of the family, her family still lives in the land that was given to them by their owner, and half of his family still lives in the same town. Even though they share the same last name, and some of the same facial features, we have yet to have a proper family reunion.
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The fact that these WM during the era of slavery were willing to forego their White privilege, when the consequences for doing so were higher than they are now, clearly demonstrates that WM/NON-BM, TODAY, WHO CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY BW ARE DOING SO SOLELY BECAUSE OF COWARDICE AND RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES.
Exactly there is less to lose now, than back then, and obviously some folks didn't give a damn, laws be damned.
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Although most of the focus was on the forced nature of many of the relationships, there were some based on mutual love as well.
Exactly. I think we want to focus on the inequalities of these relationships, as a deterrent, but we really never hear about the consensual ones. Well as consensual of relationships that could be had between a man and a woman of that time.
This is so very interesting. I don't know why WM back then would take the risk more than WM now. Cowardice? I have no idea.
I'm looking forward to reading other people's thoughts.
I’m not an expert merely an observer (and black woman).
Black women suffer from a twofold problem.
1st we suffer from bad PR. With good advertisement anything can be sold. I know I know “sold” but that’s what it is the ideal that black women are a viable choice for desire and marriage. We need our own movement. Black women were very present during the civil rights movement and peppered throughout the Women movement. We need to learn the mistakes of the Civil Rights/Women’s movement and create our own. In the end the civil rights movement served us very well but the focus today is primarily black men. Once there is a community of black women, once we really find ourselves then we could begin to create our image.
2nd and more toward the post. You are right to point out the large number of bw/wm interracial relationships during this time period. Today when people talk of miscegenation laws they frame it as laws to keep black men from marrying white women but the original intent was to keep white men from marrying black women. I remember the article on this guy. He was a mayflower descendant who disliked the Victorian coldness of white women. Men in general will seek companionship with who meet their needs. Of the men who want something different some men will stick with tradition but there are a lot who will follow their wants. This is how in the end of WW2 men came back to their communities with Asian and German brides. Even though they were the enemy and in the face of all the propaganda they followed their needs thus creating a new tradition for themselves. The stereotypes that began with the early AW/WM and BM are somewhat melted and it has just become an accepted practice. AW capitalized on their differences with white women. Granted we have the added burden of the stereotypes and laws but those laws are gone now.
The old adage how you going to keep them on the farm when they’ve seen paree. Yes there are sociality constructs that keep white women at the top of the totem pole but white women work hard to stay there. After men had been with the sexually unrepressed women in Europe and had seen the tan island women. The white women dropped the puritanical act and got tans. When sir mix a lot made it fun to sing the praises of big butts well white women got back. I will say that the appeal of black women in the Anatole Broyard time is the warmth, physical fitness compared to white women and freedom from Victorian sexual practices. All those physical differences with WW were represented by those attributes in these men’s minds. Today BW have done an 180. The obesity, hostility (some of it with for good reason) and the sexual repression. Really the spirit, it seems the attributes that we had are gone. This would explain why foreign black women have an easier time dating period. I’m not saying black women are the total fault to our situation but the black woman bus is in a ditch and only we can drive it out.
Black women need a cathartic movement (ha ha that sounds funny), not to make anybody the enemy but to make it about black women and how we can have a place in this society.
Reclaim our image and propagandize it.
Capitalize on our differences. Lip injection and butt implants don’t cover all the grand differences.
wait, why did my posts get taken down? we do have a problem with obesity in the bc. I wasn't trying to be offensive, i'm just saying its a serious problem. I seriously believe that the negative media portrayal of bw coupled with the lack of healthy resources for these low income neighborhoods is causing an obesity epidemic, particularly for younger bw. Not all bw, i'm not even going to say the majority, but it is a problem. It just kills me because that's a negative stereotype about bw and for some, its starting to become a reality, that's all i was saying. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Nothing against overweight people, sometimes its a real emotional problem and I'm not mocking that at all.
too much time on Sunday said,
I strongly agree with you that BW need GOOD PR THAT PROMOTES "the ideal that black women are a viable choice for desire and marriage." In this day and age, PERCEPTION IS REALITY and the NEGATIVE PERCEPTION THAT EVERYONE HAS OF BW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. BW need to help DESTROY THE LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOPTYPES THAT TRASH OUR HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND FEMININITY BY PUNISHING COMPANIES/INDIVIDUALS (boycotts, lawsuits, editorials, protests, etx.) WHO PROMOTE NEGATIVE IMAGES OF BW.
yes, an image makeover is in order. Image makeover and self-esteem booster...
Hmmm, PR? Perhaps something like this. This may be the funniest thing I've read in a long time. The whole site is a scream.
http://blacksnob.com/scan/2008/3/13/reviving-the-brand.html
I mean no harm:
Your posts were taken down due to the fact that the topic of all of your posts remained the same. Black women are fat and obese. When you say it once, I get your point, if you say it four or five times, it tends to border on trolling and is meant to insult rather than to inform.
The topic isn't even about fat black woman, so why fat black women was the focal point of your posts was confusing to me as well.
There is another new book that has come out about these types of cases--the inheritance rights aspect of it--wills under slavery, in which the men left bequests to the women and children: Fathers of Conscience: Mixed-race Inheritance in the Antebellum South--University of Georgia Press.
The Clarence King story looks fascinating. I find it heartening that love could overcome such obstacles as a time when Blacks were regarded as not even human. It's truly amazing.
Human nature can be so rotten, (if it's what it appears) a story like this can be heartening.
@roslynholcomb: ba-dum-bum-pish, while reading it I could totally hear that 50's PSA music.
@I mean no harm: I didn't get to read your post but i just wanted to say i don't want it to seem like I'm damning black women for the 180 (the obesity and such). The blame and anger amongst black women has to end. Some understanding and compassion is in order. Not all black women have done the 180, but a lot of us have (me included). Some us are in denial but that is a natural human defense. I know the obesity and/or hostility is a reaction to the way we (at least me) are being treated and how we allow ourselves to be treated (again me for sure). No it isn't "all our fault" but there are things we can change to give us the best possible chance. So when i say that we need to drive it out of the ditch i mean it with peace,love and understanding.
@Siditty: i love your blog. Sorry to be off topic a little.
yes, too much time on sunday, i understand. I agree with your points, sorry siditty i didn't mean to detract. I agree with you, we need peace and understanding and some positive influence to improve our health first and foremost, then our image.
Killers of the Dream, written in 1949 by Lillian Smith, a southern White woman, explains in depth the reasons behind the development of the anti-miscegenation laws. Smith draws from her own upbringing to explain other malevolent practices and mindsets seemingly unique to the American south such as the Jim Crow laws, lynching, sharecropping vs. slavery, etc. It's an enlightening read but you have to make allowances for when it was written. Her prose gets a bit florid at times.
I am currently reading the book that Siddity spoke of in the post.
Although I am not a fan of how the author laid out the story(not sure if it was suppose to be a biography or her suppositions on their relationship mixed with facts)
Any ways I kind of felt that Mr. King had his cake and ate it to. He never gave up his life as a scholar and a beloved figure in
the academic community, yes he was risking being caught but how often did those two world collide back in the 1800's.
Leading a double life back then I think would have been much easier back then than now.
I haven't read it yet, I'll be buying it with my next Amazon order. I don't think of it as much of a love story either. Basically he made her his mistress, he just didn't tell her that. They weren't married and she didn't know about his other life and the folks in his other life certainly didn't know about her. The only difference from being a 'kept woman' was that she didn't know she was being kept.
Plenty of white men would love to have such an arrangement today, problem is, most black women wouldn't go for it. Dude didn't give up any white privilege and that's where the problem lies. White men have no desire to relinquish white privilege. Even if the only privilege they lose is the fact that they don't have to think about race unless they want to. This is major, and something we don't think about because we've dealt with it forever. Imagine going from never having race impact you, to having to deal with it on the daily, and at times from the position of having been in the oppressor group. The question isn't why more white men don't date black women. I'm amazed that any do.
Roslynholcomb,
I understand what you're saying when you state that you're amazed any WM date BW when RACE IS NORMALLY A NON ISSUE FOR THEM but, the fact remains, that WM invented White privilege/preservation of White privilege. WM can lessen its importance by CHOOSING TO NOT MAKE RACE AN ISSUE IN THEIR IRR'S WITH BW AND BY TREATING THEM THE SAME WAY THEY DO IRR'S WITH OTHER NON-WW. IF WM WERE TO DO THIS CONSISTENTLY, OVER THE COURSE OF TIME, IRR'S WITH BW COULD BE MAINSTREAMED.
Laramona, why would they want to do that? White skin privilege is to the advantage for them, getting rid of it doesn't benefit them. And it's not like they have a shortage of women wanting to date them, so why should they change? If you look at our history in this country, one thing is crystal clear; white people only changed when it was to their benefit.
roslynholcomb,
That's an excellent point and it reinforces my observation that the MAIN REASON MOST AMERICAN WM/NON-BM AREN'T INTERESTED IN SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIPS WITH BW IS PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY BENEFIT MORE FROM ADHERING TO RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES (EVEN IF THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO BW) THAN FROM TREATING BW IN A FAIR, HUMANE, MANNER.
[Disclaimer: All caps used soley for emphasis]
On a HOPEFUL note, there are certain WM/NON-BM (Europeans, younger American WM/NON-BM-20's to early 30's, some WM in certain regions of America) who SEE BW AS REAL WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS AND WORTHY OF BEING PURSUED FOR SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE. BW need to PERMANENTLY REJECT THE WM/NON-BM WHO ARE ANTI-BW HATERS AND EMBRACE THOSE WM/NON-BM WHO WILL TREAT US IN A FAIR, HUMANE, LOVING, NON-RACIST MANNER.
Roslyn,
Black women need to look beyond white men in IR dating: maybe they don't even need to look at them at all. The animosity and barb slinging between whites and blacks will never be resolved; hence, a look at non white men as choices for mates would seem to be a much better solution.
Roslyn,
Black women need to look beyond white men in IR dating: maybe they don't even need to look at them at all. The animosity and barb slinging between whites and blacks will never be resolved; hence, a look at non white men as choices for mates would seem to be a much better solution.
Wow you have given up on the sistas for real huh? I will say this and this is the honest god's truth, the race thing is a bit of a novelty in a long term relationship. It is there, but it isn't a focal point. I don't wake up looking at my husband and admiring his whiteness, like he probably isn't all that concerned with my blackness when I spend too much money on hair products.
Of course I think it also helps to an extend that my husband has a bit of a idealistic view of the world and race relations than I do. It isn't all hopeless, it isn't all doom and gloom. I got ten years to back that up.
classical one, this is the internet. i would advise you not to take it too seriously. Everything is blown out of proportion on here. Ask yourself, do my real relations reflect the reality depicted on this blog??
"Black women need to look beyond white men in IR dating: maybe they don't even need to look at them at all. The animosity and barb slinging between whites and blacks will never be resolved; hence, a look at non white men as choices for mates would seem to be a much better solution."
OH NO! we're losing a good one folks. Classical one, don't give up! you're not an anti-bw bigot! WE LOVE YOU!
classical one should do what this white guy at my job did, marry and olive skinned white woman and be happy.
[Disclaimer: All Caps used solely for emphasis]
C1,
Despite the many American WM who act/think like ANTI-BW HATERS, I (and other BW like me)have always been attracted to/preferred WM.
I believe that BW and the specific type of WM (Europeans, younger American WM-20's to early 30's, some WM in certain regions of America) who SEE BW AS REAL WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS AND WORTHY OF BEING PURSUED FOR SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE need to find better ways of meeting/interacting with each other (eg. Exclusive BW/WM dating sites, Special Events for BW/WM to attend and meet each other,etc.). The challenges that face a BW/WM IRR shouldn't stop us from finding love with each other.
classical one, this is the internet. i would advise you not to take it too seriously. Everything is blown out of proportion on here. Ask yourself, do my real relations reflect the reality depicted on this blog??
Yep, because the reality depicted on this blog, is my reality. Realize I was born six miles from a sundown town in Texas. I grew up amongst white republicans the majority of my life, it impacts how I see the world, if you don't like it or believe it, don't read it, but I am not going to back down on my perception because you don't like it.
Yep, because the reality depicted on this blog, is my reality. Realize I was born six miles from a sundown town in Texas. I grew up amongst white republicans the majority of my life, it impacts how I see the world, if you don't like it or believe it, don't read it, but I am not going to back down on my perception because you don't like it.
HUH?? I was talking about the internet, not this blog specifically.
HUH?? I was talking about the internet, not this blog specifically.
But you said:
Ask yourself, do my real relations reflect the reality depicted on this blog??
I am assuming you are talking specifically about this blog.
I am assuming you are talking specifically about this blog.
nope. not your blog writings, just some of the comments. nothing wrong with your postings, just some of the comments i can understand why some wm might feel a little upset.
Clarification of Previous Comment:
[All Caps used solely for emphasis]
ORIGINAL COMMENT:
roslynholcomb,
That's an excellent point and it reinforces my observation that the MAIN REASON MOST AMERICAN WM/NON-BM AREN'T INTERESTED IN SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIPS WITH BW IS PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY BENEFIT MORE FROM ADHERING TO RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES (EVEN IF THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO BW) THAN FROM TREATING BW IN A FAIR, HUMANE, MANNER.
CLARIFICATION:
roslynholcomb,
That's an excellent point and it reinforces my observation that most AMERICAN WM/NON-BM aren't interested in SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE IRR'S WITH BW is, primarily, because they BENEFIT MORE FROM GIVING IN TO ANTI-BW COWARDICE (EVEN IF THEY ARE INTERESTED IN BW) THAN FROM TREATING BW IN A FAIR, HUMANE, MANNER.
Clarification of Previous Comments:
[All Caps used solely for emphasis]
ORIGINAL COMMENT:
C1,
Despite the many American WM who act/think like ANTI-BW HATERS, I (and other BW like me)have always been attracted to/preferred WM.
I believe that BW and the specific type of WM (Europeans, younger American WM-20's to early 30's, some WM in certain regions of America) who SEE BW AS REAL WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS AND WORTHY OF BEING PURSUED FOR SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE need to find better ways of meeting/interacting with each other (eg. Exclusive BW/WM dating sites, Special Events for BW/WM to attend and meet each other,etc.). The challenges that face a BW/WM IRR shouldn't stop us from finding love with each other.
CLARIFICATION:
C1,
Despite the many American WM who CLAIM TO BE INTERESTED IN BW, but act/think like ANTI-BW COWARDS, I (and other BW like me)have always been attracted to/preferred WM.
I believe that BW and the specific type of WM (Europeans, younger American WM-20's to early 30's, some WM in certain regions of America) who SEE BW AS REAL WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS,WORTHY OF BEING PURSUED FOR SERIOUS DATING AND/OR MARRIAGE, need to find better ways of meeting/interacting with each other (eg. Exclusive BW/WM dating sites, Special Events for BW/WM to attend and meet each other,etc.). The challenges that face a BW/WM IRR shouldn't stop us from finding love with each other.
Clarification of Previous Comments:
[All Caps used solely for emphasis]
ORIGINAL COMMENT:
Siddity,
The fact that these WM during the era of slavery were willing to forego their White privilege, when the consequences for doing so were higher than they are now, clearly demonstrates that WM/NON-BM, TODAY, WHO CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY BW ARE DOING SO SOLELY BECAUSE OF COWARDICE AND RACIST ANTI-BW TENDENCIES.
CLARIFICATION:
Siddity,
The fact that these WM during the era of slavery were willing to forego their White privilege, when the consequences for doing so were higher than they are now, clearly demonstrates that WM/NON-BM, TODAY, WHO CLAIM TO BE INTERESTED IN BW, BUT CHOOSE NOT TO SERIOUSLY DATE AND/OR MARRY THEM ARE DOING SO SOLELY BECAUSE OF ANTI-BW COWARDICE.
C1 you have said on many occasions now how you feel relations between blacks and whites will not get better. So I take it you mean that and that you will only associate yourself with nonblack people, especially women. I don't understand where you are coming from with this. You started out with this great blog, now you almost sound mean about relations between white men and black women. I definately notice animosity in your words, or lets just say attitude. Did something happen between you and a black woman? Maybe you are not interested in dating black women, you have said on many occasions now, how you feel rel
Well C=1 if it is easier to you to not want to get involved with a black woman because of race relations between blacks and whites not being the greatest, that is certainly your choice. At least you realize it may be to hard for you to deal with. You feeling the way you do would only bring hardship to your relationship. Especially if you are focusing on how hard it is or could be. I believe race is the least of worries in a real true loving relationship. Not to say in the begining it is not a problem,maybe, depends on the couple, but the way you look at relations between blacks and whites, it could be a big issue for you, if you focus on that. I know the person I am seeing race relations between blacks and whites is something I don't care about. Not when I just have to deal with HIM in OUR relationship. He doesn't worry either. We really like each other and enjoy each others company. That is our common denominator. No racial problems yet, it's still early.
c1 will probably end up marrying an asian woman. just accept it and move forward.
c1 will probably end up marrying an asian woman. just accept it and move forward.
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No doubt. He makes it out to be way harder than it should. I honestly think although he is further along than most whites in race relations. He would not be able to handle a relationship with a black woman because of his own personal hangups. That's just me.
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