***Recently, I was given the opportunity to guest blog over at Rippdemup's place. You guys need to check out his blog. It is funny, insightful, and entertaining. This week was interesting because it was "Ladies First" Week, meaning that all the posts this week are from women bloggers. Definitely check him out***
One thing that is said about the black community is that we are not unified. I do sometimes find this to be the case, as we are at times quick to throw someone under the bus, stereotype ourselves, and make it seem as if all things wrong in the world point to black people. At other times, we tend to come together, and acknowledge we are all in it together as well. When Barack Obama was elected to office, it was a victory for "all of us" because for once a black man caught a break and a lot of people (read white) were voting for him based upon merit and put aside his race to elect him President. More people than we expected anyway. Most of us jumped up and down for OJ, even though we knew he was guilty because we for once were able to do something we hadn't done; avoided death row for killing someone white. We weren't happy that he got off, but that the jury saw him as innocent and made the prosecutors attempt to prove his guilt. Sometimes though, we lay claim each other when we shouldn't.
I am married to a white man. A very white man, you can't mistake him as high yellow or anything. He is Irish and German, he doesn't tan, he burns. He even glows in the dark at night he is so white. We have been together for ten years, and in that ten years we have had our encounters with folks who disagree with our relationship. There have been a few knucklehead black men who have told me to "come home" or said something to my husband about "taking what doesn't belong to him". Now prior to me being with my husband the majority of men I dated were white. I know I am a sell out concubine slave negress to the white man, but let's put that aside for a moment. Let's talk about how black men in general didn't normally approach me in my everyday life, and of the few that did, some didn't approach me in a way I was accustomed to. To put it bluntly, didn't no black man really want me.
Maybe it is because I look like Evilene from the Wiz. Maybe it is because like me, the few black guys I were around were so surrounded by whiteness, that all they dated or noticed were white girls. Maybe I didn't give the brothers who did approach me a fair shake. All in all though, it seems simply when I was single, I didn't belong to these black men. They didn't want me. I suddenly belonged to them when I dated a white man, and it didn't matter when I was available they weren't really noticing me, but now I am their property. Why? Why did I have an all or nothing allegiance to these black men I didn't know? Was I supposed to wait for them? Would they really want me? Would I want them? Would Halle Berry have really given these black men a chance if it wasn't for a white man?
Now this is no way excusing me from understanding and identifying with being black, but did me getting with a white man threaten the black community? Did I dwindle the number of eligible black women, making black folks extinct? Where the hell were these men when I was single? Why did I belong to anyone aside from my momma and daddy?
I am not letting the black women off the hook either, I know good and well we have all had that conversation about black men "leaving the race" for non black women, that so many have a "anything but black attitude". I know this is painful, but black men don't belong to black women either. They aren't our men, if they choose to date outside the race so be it, but it doesn't mean that they "left us". In reality, we might not have had a chance with them anyway. I know good and damn well Taye Diggs was not going to call me up and ask me out.
All in all, most black women and black men are marrying each other or at least being baby mommas and daddies to each other. That is another topic to discuss another time. My point is, black love still exists, it might seem harder to find, but it is still there. Of the married couples I know, I am one of the few inter racially married ones. Most of my black girlfriends who are married, married black men. Of the black men I know that are married, the majority of them are married to black women. My husband and I are the oddballs, people white, black, or other are not rushing out to get their swirl on when it comes to settling down, that is just the facts.
Please be rest assured many of us who marry out, are aware of "our history" and racism. We know we are part of the community. People in interracial relationships are able to identify with being black, and we don't all run away from "our roots" simply because we "married out". OK some of us do the Clarence Thomas, but some of us like being black, and we know that even though we are not marrying "our own" that we are still black and proud to be so.
43 comments:
I have been reading your posts lately and I find them really interesting. I guess I'm guilty of believing that black men belong to us black women to a certain extent, but not in the way most do. By this I believe that we have a natural connection and usually can easily group and relate(if we remain open minded), but that's when the belongingness stops for me. We have the right to chose our own mates and I hate when black men or women or any race for that matter say things like "she taking our men."
I have mainly only dated black men when I do date, but I admit I mostly get approached from non-black individuals. I have always been seen as different and not black enough so I guess black men don't find me appealing...I'm not sure. But the moment I was seen with a person who wasn't a black man we were immediately ridiculed. It's f'd up.
I think the main thing is identity. How do you identify yourself. It seems to me that "blackness" is a major identifier for many in the "community". Dating outside of your race doesn't change how you see yourself ,but how others see you or want you to be seen.
I am not actively pursued by any black man and I have to admitted that I have my own prejudices in being pursued by them, if it happened.
I am not against dating black men but I have yet to find any man to my liking. The ones that come close are not racially black.
who knew Lex Luther had such great taste in women.
"black love still exists"
A good post Siditty. I often find it interesting to read on your blog and to take part of the comments.
@ KurlyQue,
girl, you are cute in any damned language!
Good article Sid!
But....you do not look like Evilene!! LOL!
What pisses me off is the whole
"our men" and "our women", "taking something from someone that isnt yours" that really pisses me off. what i think is that NO ONE OWNS NO ONE. just because we may be the same rac does not mean that: you owe anyone anything, dont have to prove shit to anyone, doesnt make you their brotha or sista, just because of your race!!! i believe we are ALL Human first them our race second i have a big problem with pride it seems to be very selfish....and i agree with you i havent really dated a black man cause i wasnt hoochie enough or "black enough" I was myself, and its impossible to act like a color......so if it is possble to act like a color then how can you can purple or pink? lol i actually really wanna know! =D
You know I was having a slightly different version of this conversation with a friend. I think people who use culture as a defining ingredient in a relationship are just looking for something to hold on to because they can't find any other reason to stay together. I heard this logic many times from Latino friends and not a year later, were these people together.
I have dated a few Caribbean guys which is a completely different culture from me and I have never once said that we mesh well together because our skin is brown. It just makes no sense and I really hate it when people use this as a reason to date someone.
AMEN ON THIS!
I am not letting the black women off the hook either, I know good and well we have all had that conversation about black men "leaving the race" for non black women, that so many have a "anything but black attitude". I know this is painful, but black men don't belong to black women either.
LOL@thelady.
Hey Sid, is that a picture of you and your husband?
No that is not me or my husband. Lex Luther is way too old and too bald to be my husband. My husband is younger, not older than me.
By this I believe that we have a natural connection and usually can easily group and relate(if we remain open minded), but that's when the belongingness stops for me.
This is true, we do have a shared struggle, so it would seem natural that we could relate to each other.
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who knew Lex Luther had such great taste in women.
Thelady,
LOL Isn't Lex the coolest thing ever!!!!
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A good post Siditty. I often find it interesting to read on your blog and to take part of the comments.
I am glad you like my posts. I am glad to give you an American point of view :)
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But....you do not look like Evilene!! LOL!
LOL Thanks :)
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I think people who use culture as a defining ingredient in a relationship are just looking for something to hold on to because they can't find any other reason to stay together.
Moviegirl,
I definitely think that people don't realize just because we are of the same color or culture that there are so many other factors to consider. I have said this before, but the novelty of race wears off after a while. His whiteness doesn't keep me with my husband.
Nor would me and my husband pose in a picture like that, ever!!!!
who knew Lex Luther had such great taste in women.
LOL, I was thinking Mr. Clean.
Seriously, Siddity is right. People need to live their own lives and stop worrying about who other people are sleeping with/marrying.
If Siddity and her husband are happy, then I am happy for them.
Congrats on 10 years.
I have never had brothers be so into me until I started IR dating.
I also have never been treated so disrespectfully by men of my own race.
It's sad that hypocrisy that some of our people spout.
This is my first time visiting this blog and I have to say that I'm really glad you did a post regarding this issue of black women 'belonging' to black men and vice versa.
I used to read a lot of magazines such as Essence, Ebony etc. mostly when I was a teenager because there was little to no representation of positive black females in other media publications. However, I always hated the notion that black men 'belonged' to black women and vice versa which was continually emphasised in Essence and similar others because it sends out the message that we can only date or marry black men, and thus ruling out the possibility for relationships with non-black men altogether.
And another issue I have with publications such as these and other black media is that while black men often choose to date non-black women; when black women decide to date/marry non-black men they are pressured to have to justify their reasons for not finding a 'good black man'. And that really annoys me.
I have dated guys of various ethnic backgrounds and in many cases prefer it because, in comparison to the black men I have dated and met, I have been treated better and with much more respect. This is just what I've noticed from my experiences anyway.
I have had similar experiences and it just seems that these BM feel like they have to "Claim" something. This twisted sense of "belonging" is only a sign of insecurity. People can exercise the right to choose. When Tiger married Elin, some BW were mad. I said that it wasn't like he would be beating down their door if he weren't marrying a WW. The first step in curing this sense of entitlement to one another is to just be real with yourself and to stop projecting. I've had BM give me dirty looks while having their arm around their White gf. IT seems that it's always the hypocrites who get the most upset. I don't care who he is with, so he shouldn't care who I'm with.
Ok, there may not be ownership of each other but its the reasons why people marry out that is a problem.
In the book, "Why Black Men Love White Women", the author does a pretty good job explaining some of the pathology involved.
The point is that most who do tend to do it for the sickest of reasons and therefore objections need to be raised by the community. By extension that pathology includes colorism which is devastating to Blacks especially women.
So this idea that Blacks don't own each other and therefore should be free to roam as they please is really silly. Unless ofcourse one advocates for the complete dissolution of the community.
Every society has its rules. And those that follow their rules last the longest. This is not to discourage intermarriage. If two people are genuinely in love no one is going to stop them from getting together and they will fight to keep their love.
And these are a minority. What is happening in the BC especially with BM is twisted and simply stating that they should be free to do as they please is irresponsible on the part of the Community. Because no matter what, Post racial America is not coming soon.
"One thing that is said about the black community is that we are not unified".
could you please define for me what you mean by black community?
I don't know if I have mentioned this here, but I had a friend. White chick, who was in a relationship with this black guy. He told me in front of her that he hated seeing black women with white men. She didn't say anything, but looked offended. I asked him why he felt that way and he said he just didn't think we should date white men. What an ass. I don't think I would like it if my white boyfriend said something like that. Why do you even care in the first place?It's annoying as hell to me.
SIMONE
great post. i think the ownership point is really significant here. i can also identify well with your experience in the dating world. i have dated/had serious relationships with people of varying ethnicities and racial backgrounds, but the majority of them have been non-black. why? not for any reason related to racial preference or attractiveness, but because my ass is shy lol. if someone approaches me and the person is polite, intelligence, nice in the way that they introduce themselves and initiate contact with me, i am far more likely to move beyond just a conversation. however, while living in nyc, the majority of black men who approached me did so in an offensive, sexist way that made me feel like a piece of meat. i think it comes down to changing the approach. bc there are some black men who will say they "Switched" to dating women of other races because black women are difficult and stuck up (but um, considering my name isn't "shawty," if you call me that, i will ignore you).
even this issue, the idea of "Switching" is problematic. despite the easy stereotyping that could be done here, i avoid doing so. if a black guy were to approach me in a respectful manner in nyc, and i found him intelligent, interesting and attractive, he is no different from anyone else whom i'd also give the same chance, black or not.
i went to a predominately (ok almost totally, as i was the only black person in my grade) white all girls' school. and i remember every dance being a heartbreaking experience. all my white friends would be asked to dance (by white and/or black boys) and no matter how cute i looked, i would never be asked to dance. ever. it was something that i think gave me some seriously psychological bruising that continued into my adulthood. the idea that i would never be pretty enough or good enough for someone to find me attractive (hence, i think, the continued shyness when faced with the prospect of actually doing the approaching myself), unless i were white (which obviously would never happen).
but whenever my ex boyfriend (who is of chinese descent) and i were out, the reaction was mixed. it was like black men a) felt ownership, and b) somewhat credited my boyfriend for having made some sort of accomplishment in getting me as his girlfriend. it was almost like, "wow a chinese dude and a black chick. how did he do it?" and his receiving kudos and almost a discount ticket into the world of black male acceptance, that hinged on my being black and female.
anyway, this comment is already essay-length, so i will stop there. but i think you hit on an interesting topic that rings true to a lot of black women in IRs.
The problem with Black people today is that we are seen as monolithic and therefore we treat or expect each other as being the same way. The problem is not ownership of each other, its the expectation that when someone dates outside of someone's race, they did it for sick and disparaging reasons. Black women never really had the problem with a Black man dating a non-black woman. The problem was that they felt that the Black man dates or marries other women outside of their race because of negative excuses that includes Black women. That's the problem. You can still date someone of another race and still be apart of the communuity. I think one of the main issues is that some Black people date out to get out of the community and expect to be treated as an individual but when racism happens to them then they want to use the black community to help them.
"if someone approaches me and the person is polite, intelligence, nice in the way that they introduce themselves and initiate contact with me, i am far more likely to move beyond just a conversation. however, while living in nyc, the majority of black men who approached me did so in an offensive, sexist way that made me feel like a piece of meat. i think it comes down to changing the approach. bc there are some black men who will say they "Switched" to dating women of other races because black women are difficult and stuck up (but um, considering my name isn't "shawty," if you call me that, i will ignore you)."
I can relate to this. Living in DC, too many of the Black men who approach me are so disgustingly disrespectful. Yelling "Shawty!" and other nonsense at me from across the street is such a turn-off. And I hate how some fetishize my light skin (calling me "Redbone" and "light-skinded [sic]"). I hate how they have the nerve to get violently angry with me because I refuse to accept anyone talking to me in that manner. They assume automatically because we're both the same race that they could talk to me in whatever way they wanted. This is so ridiculously far from the truth.
The few Black men who have approached me respectfully were rejected not because I don't want to date Black men, it was just because I wasn't interested in dating them, race aside. I didn't have that attraction to them and saw them as simply friend material.
I can't recall ever having a non-Black man approach me at all in the nearly four years I've lived in DC, so I do feel invisible (if I'm not being approached like a piece of meat, I'm not being approached at all). Non-Black men in DC come across as uptight to me, which is a contrast of how non-Black men in my hometown in Western New York acted. WNY guys seem more down-to-earth and less shy to me. DC guys are too concerned about appearances.
In the book, "Why Black Men Love White Women", the author does a pretty good job explaining some of the pathology involved.
That book was written by a failed comedian who is yet another person looking to exploit and play on Black women's emotions about being single. Everything in it has been said before. He is just trying to build an audience for himself.
By extension that pathology includes colorism which is devastating to Blacks especially women.
Eliminating whites from the dating pool will not eliminate actual/perceived instances of colorism, it will only intensify as light skin Blacks vs Dark.
The point is that most who do tend to do it for the sickest of reasons and therefore objections need to be raised by the community.
Guess what, there are same race couples of Blacks (and other races) that get together for the sickest of reasons too. Race aside, people in a free society will get with who they want. The only way to change this is to change the level of freedom in society. Who wants to do that? Who would dare?
Unless ofcourse one advocates for the complete dissolution of the community.
Like anon pointed out, different people define community differently. Your definition is not the absolute meaning.
Every society has its rules. And those that follow their rules last the longest.
I have no interest in being a part of any society that wishes to control such a personal aspect of my life such as who I lay down with, whether it is run by some deep south White man or some angry black militant.
So this idea that Blacks don't own each other and therefore should be free to roam as they please is really silly.
How do you propose to change that in a free society?
I did not insult you and I did not call you any names. Again not looking to fight, just looking for clarity.
(Black girls rolls her eyes at me and a white girl at a local mall)
Me; "Am I effin' you?"
Girl "Hell no..."
Me; "Then eff you."
(Food court erupts in laughter)
But I just ran into some girl I knew and decided to have a quick linch with her.
Sure she was hot (and the girls rolling their eyes were beasts) - but nothing was going on.
But even my parents can't tell me who to date - let alone some people I don't even know.
Any woman can be psychotic. Crazy comes in all ethnic groups. Much like ignorance does. Wow Sid, the trolls are really coming out in full force these days.
When black people supporting black people because they are black, is seen as racist, there can be real integration.
"When black people supporting black people because they are black, is seen as racist, there can be real integration".
Believe me that aint gonna happen here unless the common enemy is black and...
Your friend Nick posted the exact same comments on Abagond's blog under the name John (first comment is #420). It's probably not worth arguing with him.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/why-so-few-white-men-marry-black-women/
Anon,
Noted. I also note the "black women are psychotic" comment was there as well. Amanda and company are in full effect with their trolling.
I'm wondering if some of them are the same person?? There are so many holes in their arguments, it's pathetic.
Many of the comments I read on blogs that deals with interracial dating focus alot on the negative comments black women get from black men, when bw date outside their own race. On a blog like "Beautiful Black Woman - Thoughts of a White B'woy" I read comments that seems to rejoice over the fact that black women and white men have much love for eachother nowadays. It seems like many blame the Black man for the "Eurocentric" beauty ideals in the world. And that it is the Black man that is mostly against interracial dating. For me this is very puzzling to read but maybe I misunderstand some of the comments that are made and as an "outsider" can't fully understand them.
PS: I hope I wasn't off topic now but I just wanted to share some of my thoughts :-)
@Golden Silence. You are living my life!! I'm in DC too and ocassionally, once in awhile get approached by non-white guys and get hit on very inappropriately by many black men (some of whom are homeless). People tell me I'm pretty but sometimes I feel very ugly based on that and what happened to me in school -I'm tall too so that doesn't help either. I wasn't the only black person at my school but one of few, and there were more Indians, and Chinese and Korean kids than black kids. I also worry that as a black woman in my mid-thirties who doesn't get to date much, I'm going to turn into a crazy old cat lady.
"People tell me I'm pretty but sometimes I feel very ugly based on that and what happened to me in school..."
I can relate to that too. I was the nerd in HS and no guys liked me. The only guy who was interested in me in HS was the equivalent to Screech from "Saved by the Bell" (except heavier, sweatier, smellier and more pimply). The White guys wanted nothing to do with me because I was Black (with the exception of the aforementioned "Nerd Boy"), and all the Black boys did was clown on me.
So now years later, I'm out of my nerd phase (physically I'm no longer a nerd, I'm still a nerd on the inside ;-D) and I'm getting hit on by the most ignorant men ever. The same types of Black guys who wanted nothing to do with me in HS are now bothering the mess out of me on the street. I carry myself with dignity and class, and the way they talk to me is so degrading and demeaning. Their mindset is so shallow---why would I be interested in someone who only wants me because I'm "light-skinded [sic]"?! I want someone who wants the whole package, not just the outer appearance.
In HS, I was so desperate for a boyfriend whatever little iota of attention I received made me grateful. Now I feel stronger and can easily put my hand up and say "Fool, please!" when they approach me with that "Shawty, can I talk to you?" nonsense.
However, I still feel invisible. Why do only scrubs approach me? Why don't nice, attractive guys approach me? If one more person says "You're so attractive it intimidates them," I'll scream! My looks don't intimidate the scrubs from approaching me! Aye-yi-yi.
By the dates posted to this blog, I'm very, very late to the party.
1st. You don't look like 'no Evil Lin', I’m a straight black woman, I know beauty, cause I'm pretty hot stuff @ 45 myself...(look in’ late twenties) you're beautiful as I'm sure you've been told countless times. I commend you for finding love and happiness, not listening to that little voice nor family or friends referencing “betraying the race “in your head dating/ forget loving a white man goes against the grain or is wrong. I did the opposite and didn't go w/ my heart or yeah, I'll say opportunity for happiness and that's why I'm alone, still dating and bitter. I just want to say to the younger sisters if you find love, but not with a black man, take it, grab your happiness and forget what anyone else has to say, it’s your life! Black men don't give a flying #$%$# about you, take care of yourself, your well being because you deserve it, you are not being disloyal....most black men have deserted the race years ago. Don't live your best years alone stuck on a false racial fantasy of loyalty built upon slave lore, be true to your life, you only get one bite at life. It’s not about vengeance, but happiness for the fairer sex, for them it’s about color, status and improving the color of their progeny, hating themselves or status …they’re sickening & weak.
Breathe & Do what is right for you.
I feel so strongly about this topic...my boyfriend is white and in the beginning we got LOTS of stares...him from white women and me from black men. When I was single, it felt like black men couldn't be bothered, but as soon as I started dating then I'm betraying them in some far off sort of way. I hate if people ask me if I only like white guys...I like guys who treat me like I deserve to be treated--regardless of race. The only one I felt that did that just *HAPPENS* to be white. Why does that have to be a big deal?
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