2009-08-14
"She's Pretty for a Dark-Skinned Girl..."
"She's Pretty for a Dark-Skinned Girl..."
Tameka J. Raymond
Fashion stylist, designer and mother
I am a dark-skinned African American woman with features that reflect my ancestry. Debates regarding Light vs. Dark and other biases have plagued our race for years and continues to impact millions of Black women. The deeply rooted intra-racial contempt that lies beneath this inane "compliment" is the reason I've chosen to spark dialogue surrounding the topic of self-hatred in our culture. It saturates every aspect of our lives, dominating the perspectives of our generation as a whole. We culturally are so influential, at times inadvertently, that we affect all with the words we utter and the images we portray. It lends to the theory of systemic racism. I'm authoring this piece because I'm miffed by this reality and would like to share my views on these subjects.
It is a fact that many African-Americans are often mixed with an array of other ethnicities (as am I), which allows for the spectrum of our features to be as distinctive and special as we are diverse. Why is it felt that the more diluted our traditionally African features become the more aesthetically acceptable we are considered? It was said in the 1960s and the sentiment seems to be forgotten, "Black is Beautiful." Wow, nearly 50 years later and is that now only meant for a specific shade? Nonetheless, I believe the beauty of our people and splendor of every individual is reflected in our varying features and hues.
Often dark-skinned women are considered mean, domineering and standoffish and it was these very labels that followed Michelle Obama during the campaign for her husband's presidency and which she has had to work tirelessly to combat. I was appalled when I heard a Black woman refer to Michelle Obama as unattractive. The conversation turned into why President Obama picked her as his mate. No one in the witch-hunt made reference to the possibility that Michelle Obama was smart, funny, caring, a good person, highly accomplished or brilliant. Nor did they mention that she previously was President Obama's supervisor. If she were fair skinned, petite with long straight or wavy hair, would the same opinions be linked to her? I seriously doubt it. It is believed that for the dark skinned, dreams are less obtainable.
In fact, I have read similar comments about myself that I am "dark, aggressive, bossy and bitchy." It has been stated that my husband should have been with a "younger, more beautiful" woman. Astoundingly, the majority of the remarks come from African-American women and are mimicked by others. Sadly enough, I don't know nor have I met 99% of those making these assertions. Funny, how we can judge another without having personally seen, interacted with or experienced a person's character.
As I began to delve into further research on this topic, and the more I read, I concluded that many of our people do not like what they see in the mirror. Seeing ones own reflection in another person and then to dissect it in an effort to destroy can only be the product of self-loathing. Why don't we congratulate as opposed to hate?
There is an adage "hurt people, hurt people". If this is true then we must examine the root of negative words and judgments that are passed on people. Unfortunately, we have internal stereotypes based off of skin color and facial features that stem from years of programming, dating back to the "Willie Lynch" method for creating a slave. In this infamous formula, one of the main factors in separating and creating division was placing the lighter skinned blacks in a higher position in the house, while those with darker skin were made to stay in the fields and deemed "less desirable". Much like the Caste System in India. No matter what strides we make as a people, these issues continue to plague and rot our souls, causing significant decay to a portion of our population and truly hindering our progress. Perhaps we show progress in our wallets and lifestyles but not in our mind set.
Reading magazines, social media sites, watching our music videos, and television shows feed our appetites for all things 'beauty". Rarely, however do I see depictions of grace and elegance in the form of dark complexioned women. I Googled one of the more ethnic models, Alek Wek and I was saddened by the tone of what the bloggers wrote in reference to her complexion, features and hair texture. Ms. Wek's escape from Sudan, her journey, philanthropy, and groundbreaking success as a supermodel in America is not only beautiful, but it displays her tenacity and character. African-Americans seemed to have lost their eye for character. These comments are evidence of the confusion that lies within many black people. It's the cruelty and prejudice that has spilled into the fabric of our everyday lives. It makes me wonder what have we collectively lost as a people? Our Minds.
I too have fallen prey, while on vacation in Brazil I decided to undergo tummy lipo-surgery. After having an allergic reaction to the anesthesia, I went into cardiac arrest before the procedure ever began. I nearly lost my life over something as superficial as having a flatter mid-section and trying to adapt to society's traditional definition of beauty. As I nursed my psychological wounds, I began to realize that trying to live up to the prototypes of external beauty paled in comparison to the fact that I have undergone labor, subsequently being blessed to raise five handsome, smart, healthy, intuitive, and happy children. I emerged from my ordeal realizing that my body is an amazing vessel that has given birth to life and that being healthy is what's important and nothing more.
It is my hope that our First Lady and others who share in this effort will continue to be the beacon to shine a light for those who toil on America's beauty totem pole. Now don't get me wrong or take my words out of context. I truly believe that everyone has a right to delineate what they deem is attractive, but we must not confuse perceived "attractiveness" with authentic "beauty." It is important for African Americans, especially, to realize that true beauty is a spiritual element that lies deep within an individual's spirit. It can neither be seen nor is it tangible. People tend to forget that beauty is not about looks and looks is not about beauty.
One of my favorite quotes comes from the great poet Khalil Gibran who once wrote, "Beauty is not the face; beauty is a light in the heart."
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129 comments:
Hey Siditty thank you for posting this article. You know I disagree with Tameka's situation being synonymous to colorism, however generally speaking on colorism is the truth.
I was so out done of Black Americans becoming colorism apologist. I was on a forum where someone posted the article and the lack of empathy of Black people more particularly Black women was crazy. Most of the ones kept saying "they need to stop blaming all their problems on color" "they need to get over it" I'm like even if they do, how does that solve the issue of reducing this issue in our community? Man, if you are Black person that despises racism but in the same breath are colorism apologist you have no right to ever argue about racism because you are in favor of the color caste system that is quite parallel to racism. I don't know what's worst arguing about colorism to people of color or arguing about racism to white people? lol. Either way it's nauseating.
I don't doubt that this post will receive the same negative attention as the Sodini and other posts. I just wanted to post part of Faith's response to a bm's comment on this same topic at WAOD.
If you don’t understand how damaging skin shade racism is after everything that’s been discussed here how are you adding value? I find it very interesting when males come into these forums expecting to be granted a seat at the table to discuss serious issues that are damaging to women while throwing in disparaging comments against other black women on the sly.
Folks please keep this in mind when reading the comments to come on this post and others.
Now for some of my own thoughts. I noticed that some of the comments at the Huffington Post said the issue was the fact that Tameka was older, already had children, had a criminal record, and allegedly, Usher's mother didn't care for her. My thoughts on that are, dang! is Usher our little brother or someone else close to us that we have to vet his marriage prospects? Also, already having a child was NOT a problem when he was dating Chili and since so many of us have children from previous relationships, you'd think that we would celebrate seeing a man not have an issue with that. And so what about her being older than he is? Why is that an issue? I don't even know what her criminal record is so I won't address that.
I do believe that part of why she was so roundly abused and rejected as a suitable mate for Usher was because she didn't fit the acceptable mold for wife or girlfriend of a rich and famous black man. The same way Michelle Obama doesn't. If you don't know what that mold is, just flip to some hip hop videos for an education.
Thanks for posting Tameka's HuffPo post. Regardless of what has happened in her relationship with Usher, I completely agree with her analysis of the problem of colorism in the AA community.
I hope that people of ALL races can come to understand how colorism is an additional ANTI-BW mindset that needs to be DESTROYED.
Thanks for posting this article. I was searching for it all over the place.
One kneejerk reaction to anyone who raises the issue of colorism, is "You must be dark and ugly therefore bitter". This response highlights the problem and shows the speaker to be either a colorist male or a privilaged light skinned woman.
The issue all together is evaded. In racism it is the equivalent of a white person saying, "After all you are inferior, and therefore bitter about it" . In otherwords you should resign your self to your status.
And this responde shuts down any possible productive dialogue that may be achieved. Strides have been made in fighting racism but almost zero done in combating colorism.
The White person does not need to worry about Blacks dominating him, they will be too busy collapsing in on themselves.
I never took the issue of color seriously. In my own family and the generation before, we were split right down he middle between light and dark. And never was it ever an issue. I have a very light skinned uncle and the issue of his masculinity was never ever questioned as he would be if he were in America. Infact he is one of the most aggressive people I know and not out of over compensation but because culturally that is just how our men are.
There are places in Africa where they are vulnerable to the color issue and are now taking their cues from the Hip Hop culture. A friend of mine was just telling me how Southern Sudanese refugees who move South are now using skin lightening products to fit in with the others.
Colorism needs to be fought with the same vigor as racism has been. This business of calling people dark skinned and bitter is just a way of protecting the privilages of those that gain from it. Its really that simple.
Just like we have whites that fight racism, we need more lighter skinned people to fight colorism and calling out Black men more because they are some of the biggest offenders.
In Malcom Gladwell's 'Outliers' he talks about his light skinned mother who had benefitted from the Jamaican color caste system and her first experience of racism when she moved to the UK. She struggled with bitterness for a while until she realized that she had benefitted from the caste system that favored her skin tone and it was simply no different from racism. That realization seemed to ease her anger.
"Astoundingly, the majority of the remarks come from African-American women and are mimicked by others."
I was kind of shocked at this also. As I visited many Blogs. The loudest ones making horrible remarks were Black women themselves.
I do believe all of this stems from the insecurity of living in a Euro Centric society. How dare a Dark Skinned Black woman hold her head up high. It is seen as shameful.
As Dylan said "the times are a changing. " I am starting to notice more and more darker skinned Black women in Commercials now. So I do believe the message is getting out. Hopefully two generations from now. Little Black Girls can grow up free from worrying about being dark.
Thanks for posting this Siditty. I think it's a well written piece by Tameka Raymond...so much so that I posted a link to this same article on my blog the yesterday.
Although I know some folks may disagree with me, I still think a lot of the vitriol directed at Tameka (in particular the comments about her appearance, many coming from fellow black women) seemed to be based on her skin color...at least the remarks I've previously read disparaging her looks tended to focus on that.
My mother has light skin and was made fun of horrible growing up. Many of the taunts she received were in reference to her skin shade and based on the assumption that she "thought she was better" (which couldn't be further from the truth). On the flip side, I've heard relatives throw out the term "dark skinned" as if it were a vile curse word.
Sadly, I still think colorism is an issue in the black community...and it affects both those with light skin, dark skin and everything in between negatively.
while throwing in disparaging comments against other black women on the sly.
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Yeah, meaning when dark-skinned women go to battle against colorism in the Black community, light-skinned Black & Biracial women usually end up as their cannon fodder.
In my opinion it's not all African Americans who are keeping colorism alive. I believe dark-skinned people are mainly responsible for keeping this an issue.
I am a light-skinned black woman and rarely do I ever think about colorism in the black community. The only time I think about it is when someone who is typically dark-skinned brings it to my attention. I don't think anything less of those who are dark-skinned. However, it seems to me dark-skinned black women have an inferiority complex and self-hate. I have been hated on by more dark-skinned women than I have white people. These individuals are more critical of themselves than society is critical of them. They will do anything and say everything to keep people from noticing their insecurity. When in reality most people could careless about their shade of blackness.
I have seen several dark-skinned black women who are beautiful. I have also seen several dark-skinned black women who are not very attractive. This is not exclusive to skin shade. I can easily say the same thing for both light-skinned and brown-skinned black women. Sometimes the way we carry ourselves makes us ugly. The inferiority complex that these women openly display is the thing taking away from the attractiveness of dark-skinned black women--not their actual physical characteristics. The inferiority complex is also what's scaring people away from them. I would rather befriend a happy confident woman than one suffering from self-hate.Until they grow out of the inferiority complex the stereotypes surrounding dark-skinned black women will stick.
I love and adore Michelle Obama. To me she's extremely beautiful. Tameka Foster has successfully managed to make herself look ugly both inside and out.
We live in a society where European characteristics are openly adored. You are guilty of this yourself Sid. Given this fact I don't honestly think you personally have a right to criticize society or the African American community's fondness for European features. If you would consider this self-hate then you must go back and read some of your own blogs. You are guilty of this too.
"I am a light-skinned black woman and rarely do I ever think about colorism in the black community. The only time I think about it is when someone who is typically dark-skinned brings it to my attention."
Hmmm where have I heard this line before. Let's see.
Maybe, " Rarely do I see color. I am color blind. When I see a Black person, I don't see Black, its always the Black person that brings it to my attention. Black people have this chip on their shoulder, etc"
Ahhh privilage I tell you.
"I love and adore Michelle Obama. To me she's extremely beautiful. Tameka Foster has successfully managed to make herself look ugly both inside and out."
Anon,
You are too funny.You may not know it but you are quite condescending.
WOW! It goes to show how truly similar human beings are especially when they are privilaged.
This pecking order is too funny LOL!
Off topic.
Solange Knowles looks way better with a shaved head.
Solange
Why is it the Back Women look better or are more accepted with shaved heads than White women? This is generally true.
Point #1 - If the issue is color and colorism then shouldn't it effect dark skin men and women equally? If dark men "prefer" light women and those light women do not reject the advances of dark men, then those light women do not have a problem with dark skin which voids this as a color issue, doesn't it? Which is one reason why the racism comparison is invalid. Racist/bigoted whites dislike all Blacks, no matter the sex or shade. Colorism, as we are defining it, seems to prefer some shades and sexes over others. Two different issues that require different solutions.
Point #2 - You can't compare racism to colorism because most of the evils of racism are OBJECTIVE and QUANTIFIABLE while the evils of colorism as we define it is SUBJECTIVE. Which means that there are remedies for racism that do not exist for colorism.
For example, you either have money to pay for a house or you don't. If Marquis is worth $10 Million and his dream home costs $2 Million, then no one has any right to interfere with his decision to buy that house. And we have laws on the book to ensure that no interferes with it.
Now if Marquis prefers his women "light, bright and damned near white" what is the remedy? There isn't one because Marquis is entitled to his subjective opinion. He is neither "right" nor "wrong" it just is. And if Marquis' opinion doesn't favor you, then that is too bad. I am not saying that to be cruel, but I am saying that because that is how life works.
If Marquis is 5'6" and women prefer their men over 6', then that is too bad for Marquis. There is no remedy against other people's subjective opinions. Marquis can complain all day about it, but he is only going to come off as a whine and it is not going to make any of the women who don't want him to want him.
If dark skin women feel that colorism is a problem, then they would be better served creating a better image for themselves and dark skin women around the world instead of wasting time whining about it and trying to guilt and shame and berate people into loving them.
Marquis, who if he was just a 5'6" man would have trouble finding dates. But a 5'6" man with $10 Million will have much less trouble. Fair or not, that is the way it is.
There is an unspoken arrogance among women who cry colorism. If a dark skin man prefers dark skin women then his is "normal", but if he prefers "light" then he is a "colorist". Do you hear yourself? You are basically saying that "if you don't prefer me, then there is something wrong with you." If that is not the epitome of arrogance then I don't know what is.
Racists whites and so called colorists Blacks have the right to associate with whoever they want as long as they don't break the law nor violate someone else's human or civil rights.
Other people's affection is not one of your rights.
Wow Truth there are a lot things left unsaid in your comment. When colorist blacks and racist whites don't hire you because you are a dark skinned black then that is discrimination against black people and therefore against the law. A company can't say, we hire jews just not those that observe, that's discrimination. Their preference turned into a legal issue.
Also just because a light skinned black woman dates dark skinned men doesn't mean that they are not prejudiced against dark skinned women. This is akin to I married a black man/had sex with them and therfore can't be racist. We all know that it happens. My concern now is for their children. If they have girls that come out on the darker side will the father and mother tell them they are good enough to be loved and that she is attractive? If your definition of attractive is light, how would you do that. And how will the woman (assuming that she is a colorist and not someone who ended up preggers with a man and just trying to make the best of a bad situation)instill a sense of self within the child if its based on the superficial?
Colorism hasn't really been a problem for me (that I know of) mainly because my mother never said anything remotely vile to her children which also includes never saying the words good hair, good features. We just don't talk like that. And we run the shade gamut.
Here's another question, what is considered dark and light? This is another reason I don't use these terms. Is Tameka dark skinned, really. I,ll just call everyone brown and it works for me.
@Grata
I'm sorry if the truth hurts. As Truth B. Told has stated no one ever mentions dark-skinned black men because they don't harp on this issue. If he dates a light-skinned black woman he suddenly is deemed self-hating by dark-skinned black women. On the other hand dark-skinned black women stay on this issue. If a dark-skinned black woman dates a light-skinned black man or even a white man no one says anything. That tells me who is keeping this issue alive. It's not society and light-skinned people who are keeping colorism going. It's dark-skinned black women.
Deflecting and trying to guilty others who have NO CONTROL over their shade of blackness is not going to solve the problem. Dark-skinned black women need to love themselves before expecting someone else to love them. From my point of view this is not a community problem. This problem lies with those individuals.
Yes, I am a dark-skinned black woman, but I was lucky enough to not feel inferior due to my complexion. Maybe it was due to my environment...maybe it was due to the "you're pretty for a dark-skinned girl" saying {that I secretly hated hearing}, but that's just me. I grew up having friends that were of all shades, all races, but a vast majority of my best friends were either light brown or light skinned. I got blamed for colorism at an early age due to this...mostly by the light skinned elders in my family. Being honest, it wasn't because they were light that we meshed well together...it was the fact that I was a dark-skinned girl who didn't feel bad about it, who kept her spirits high, carried myself with high esteem, etc, and the majority of my light-skinned friends were the same. I hated being around people who carried self hatred or self doubt...I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now.
Previously, someone made the statement, "I believe dark-skinned people are mainly responsible for keeping this an issue," and I have to totally disagree. As I got older, I became more cognizant of racism as well as colorism...especially in high school and college. College was a huge litmus test for colorism since I went to Spelman, and if you want to monitor colorism, what best place to do it than at an all black, female college. Everything from sorority life to clubs/organizations to wealth had an affiliation to colorism. Prior to me going to this college, I had people questioning my desire because I wasn't light-skinned (by both light-skinned and dark-skinned blacks). I got questioned as to why I didn't want to pledge a certain sorority, for everyone assumed I would want to "fit in" because of my skin tone (by both light-skinned and dark-skinned blacks). I remember when the college queeen for Morehouse was picked (2002), and hearing people in stores saying, "I'm surprised they picked a dark-skinned girl." Once again, this is by light and dark-skinned blacks. I could go on and on with examples that have stemmed from situations in my life, as well as a published research article that I contributed to and presented that shows colorism is split down the middle (light vs. dark) in the black community. We're all at fault for this ideology continuing, and it's going to continue long as we keep these abhorrently, moronic ethos about ourselves.
I also want add, in support of others, that just because your dating or married to someone doesn't mean it reflects a preference. I had a boyfriend for more than five years and was going to marry him. He was/is 5'9" and I have a prefernce for tall men 6' and taller; however I would never let that stop me from loving another person. So if you see me with a white man, asian man, latino man, black man,or short man, it doesn't reflect a preference. It probably just reflects the man who worked the hardest to get my heart which in the end is the only thing that matters.
As a white guy my experience is that black women have an attitude problem. I've not met a black women who isn't domineering.
Since intra-race colorism doesn't affect black men nearly to the extent that it does black women, it does not exist. If it ain't happening to black men, then it ain't happening. WOW. I guess since beauty standards are far more stringently applied to women than they are to men, I suppose those must not really exist at all either. It's all subjective despite objective facts such as darker-skinned black women have lower rates of marriage than lighter-skinned black women. A link to a peer-reviewed study can be provided, but not today since I'm away from home.
@anon
Deflecting and trying to guilty others who have NO CONTROL over their shade of blackness is not going to solve the problem. Dark-skinned black women need to love themselves before expecting someone else to love them. From my point of view this is not a community problem. This problem lies with those individuals.
This sounds all too familiar. You sound like a white racist apologist. *sigh*
Ah the customary troll input with no relation whatsoever to the topic at hand from Jo(shua)vent. How refreshing and unexpected.
Comparing dark skinned Black men to dark skinned Black women is an asymmetrical argument precisely because Women are often and consistently judged by their appearance and the fact that this is still a man’s world. In addition, being dark and handsome or simply dark was and is considered an asset in being considered an attractive man, which explains why “dark chocolate skinned brothers” are quite often elevated to sex symbols within the Black community as well as outside. Morris Chestnut, Denzel Washington, Don Cheadle, are but a few examples of Black men who are seen as sex symbols or viable representations of Black masculinity. There are very few Light skinned Black men that are seen as sexy, yet light skinned/Bi-racial women are often elevated as potential beauty symbols. Lastly, historically lighter skinned Black women often end up choosing Black men that are darker than them as viable mates with obviously few exceptions.—so I am at a loss to see how Dark skinned men face the same amount of discrimination as dark skinned Black women within the community.
So to compare the perceived plight of dark skinned Black men to black women is nothing more than an insidious distraction—just as others noted—that Whites use to label Black people crazy when they attempt to discuss racism—since they don’t experience it or see it for their own eyes—it doesn’t exist. Black men regardless of how they are perceived by society are still highly prized in the Black community. If you want to see rampant colorism in a society that is not Black—look at India and the Dalits and then come back and tell black women that they are crazy and making an issue with a problem that is in other societies but is something within the Black community that is the byproduct of White racism.
Lastly its irritating once again to have our realities as Black women invalidated once again ---because we are “whining” not only by Black men but by white society. I suppose black men should stop whining about racism as well when they are DWB, false arrests, etc and just deal with it.
I do agree with many points raised in the article. However, I feel that Tameka is using colorism to explain why people dislike, when it goes much deeper. Personally, I was hating on Tameka quite hard, and it had nothing to do with her skin color. It had more to do with her and Usher's actions - making a horrible album, acting crazy on TRL, being rude, being so secretive (as opposed to his relationship with Chili), constantly blaming the media, etc.
When colorist blacks and racist whites don't hire you because you are a dark skinned black then that is discrimination against black people and therefore against the law.
Sure it is against the law but even then it is really hard to prove racism so most cases go unenforced.
I am a dark skinned Black man and there have been times in my life where I am pretty sure I have been told that "sorry, we are not hiring" when they really were or "sorry, there is no vacancy" and then still see the For Rent sign up weeks later. So I have two choices: excessively whine and complain or go look for another job/apartment that actually wants me.
Also just because a light skinned black woman dates dark skinned men doesn't mean that they are not prejudiced against dark skinned women. This is akin to I married a black man/had sex with them and therfore can't be racist.
This is true but it goes back to my original point. If she has a problem with women and not men, is it a color problem or a gender problem?
My concern now is for their children.
I hear this all the time and especially when it comes to IR relationships. As if same race or complexion children have absolutely no problems in life.
Like I said I am dark skinned and I got bothered a lot as a kid because I was into school and learning and "acting white". Very few childhoods are problem free.
Here's another question, what is considered dark and light?
A great question and another point on the objective/subjective scale.
To a racist white anyone who has a obvious Black phenotype or anyone who is known to have Black blood is to be disliked. Black is quantifiable.
For blacks dark skin may mean looking like Denzel to some and like Wesley to others. Even paper bags come in different shades so that can be an unreliable measure.
"Now if Marquis prefers his women "light, bright and damned near white" what is the remedy? There isn't one because Marquis is entitled to his subjective opinion. He is neither "right" nor "wrong" it just is. And if Marquis' opinion doesn't favor you, then that is too bad. I am not saying that to be cruel, but I am saying that because that is how life works."
That was my exact point when I posted that individuals have just as much of a right to exclude as they do to include other individuals and/or even entire groups from their dating pools.
It really should go without saying that no one should be bullied, shamed or insulted into desiring/dating someone else--and that method obviously doesn't work anyway.
It's all subjective despite objective facts such as darker-skinned black women have lower rates of marriage than lighter-skinned black women. A link to a peer-reviewed study can be provided, but not today since I'm away from home.
If dark skinned Black women have lower rates of marriage than light skinned Black women, then that means one of two things (or a combination of both)
1) Dark skinned Black women have their own preferences.
2) Men in general are passing on Dark skinned women in for lighter women. Not only are dark skinned men not marrying them, light skinned men aren't, white men aren't, Asian men arent', etc.
In case 1, why should I have sympathy for someone who is doing the same thing she is doing (if she has a right to prefer a Morris Chestnut type, then he has a right to prefer a Thandie Newton type).
In case 2, what is the remedy? I am truly interested. The problem has been highlighted. What is the solution?
I also want add, in support of others, that just because your dating or married to someone doesn't mean it reflects a preference.
And that is the beauty of being allowed preferences. You also have the right to change your mind.
If a dark skin man prefers dark skin women then his is "normal", but if he prefers "light" then he is a "colorist".
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Not only a dark skin man but ANY man (whether dark or light; white, black or Asian, etc) who prefers dark skinned women is seen as normal.
Since intra-race colorism doesn't affect black men nearly to the extent that it does black women, it does not exist. If it ain't happening to black men, then it ain't happening. WOW. I guess since beauty standards are far more stringently applied to women than they are to men, I suppose those must not really exist at all either.
That sort of reminds me of a conversation I overheard wherein a BLACK woman was complaining about the racism she'd experienced during a tour of Australia. At one point in the conversation, a WHITE man, who was also listening in, piped up and said, "Well, I DIDN'T notice ANY instances of racism when I was in Australia!"
@Lady Dani
I will not apologize for speaking my mind. The problems dark-skinned black women have are NOT noticed by society until these individuals bring it up. Light-skinned black women don't owe you or anyone else an apology. Just as you could not control your shade neither could we. It seems to me each and every time dark-skinned women want to blame someone they either target black men or light-skinned black women. You cannot guilt someone into liking you. If black men prefer those who are like that is their choice. If dark-skinned black women are being looked over for marriage then this issue of colorism is NOT exclusive to African Americans. Stop trying to guilt people into liking what they don't want to like. It's not working. Instead it's turning people off.
While colorism certainly exists, no one should feel guilty about personal preferences regarding the most intimate areas of life. Black men don't have to prefer dark women just like black women don't have to prefer black men. HOWEVER, we all should give everyone the respect they deserve as men, women, and children.
Understand where dark black women are coming from. Can you imagine having natural desires (for sex, love, marriage, and children) only to be nearly banned from receiving them simply because of your skin shade (in their minds)? Does anyone realize what kind of an effect that might have on a woman or man? Before you declare that dark women protest too much, think about that.
On the other hand, some posters are making a valid point about dark women keeping the issue alive. I for one believe that's true. I also think that bw in general keep the flame going. But again, consider why?
My personal opinion is that colorism is primarily a black problem. Nonblacks generally see black as black whether light or dark. Thus, I really feel sorry for dark black women who are attracted to black men exclusively or iclusively.
Colorism affects us in one way or another. I happen to think it affects dark skinned black women the most.
Dark skinned black men: Strong/masculine, sexy chocolate
Light skinned black men: Pretty boy, effeminate
Light skinned black woman:
Pretty redbone, "Good hair", beautiful complexion
Dark skinned black woman: Pretty for a dark skinned girl, ugly
Notice how light skinned women and dark skinned men get the positive attributes when it comes to skin color. Take a wild guess as to which group does not see colorism as a big deal because it does not affect them as negatively.
What also irritates me is that word "preference" It is a cover up word for a lot of things. I believe everyone has a preference for a REASON. For SOME people that reason is linked to negative things that they grew up with and were made to believe about people of a certain skin tone.
I wanted to add something else re dark men. They do have a plight just as bad as dark women but in a different way. Sex symbol status equals submission but not power. Men are supposed to have power. Are there white male sex symbols? Sure but white men are portrayed as both sexy and powerful. When I consider black men who were the first to gain political power, most appear to be light skinned or mixed. I've asked a question a number of times on various forums: would Obama be president if he were as dark as his father? My point is, I wouldn't dismiss problems faced by dark men as much less than what dark women. They can get into the submissive, feminized sex symbol status but are they allowed to gain power like other men? It doesn't appear so.
Lastly its irritating once again to have our realities as Black women invalidated once again ---because we are “whining” not only by Black men but by white society. I suppose black men should stop whining about racism as well when they are DWB, false arrests, etc and just deal with it.
Still comparing the objective (one has either broken the law or they haven't) to subjective data (Marquis doesn't find you cute.)
In a way this is almost a quid pro quo kind of a threat. Dark skin Black men better submit or they don't deserve legal justice.
Sex symbol status equals submission but not power. Men are supposed to have power.
If men are supposed to have power the way you are defining it (politically), then the masses of men are in trouble, regardless of race.
There are other forms of power. Like the power of choice, which is what most of us are talking about.
Are there white male sex symbols? Sure but white men are portrayed as both sexy and powerful.
Huh? Last time I checked Brad Pitt, George Clooney, and Leonardo DiCaprio have never passed any legislation. Out of White men, on a very small percentage of them will ever have any real power 99.9%of the rest are followers like everyone else.
When I consider black men who were the first to gain political power, most appear to be light skinned or mixed. I've asked a question a number of times on various forums: would Obama be president if he were as dark as his father?
If color and skin tone was the deciding factor, McCain would have won. And Barack is considered a sex symbol.
My point is, I wouldn't dismiss problems faced by dark men as much less than what dark women. They can get into the submissive, feminized sex symbol status but are they allowed to gain power like other men? It doesn't appear so.
Instead of blaming colorism, veiled attacks like this against Black men and dark skinned men in particular is one reason why many of those men prefer lighter women and other types of women. If lighter and other types of women have no problem seeing his masculinity, why should a Black man and dark skinned man waste his time trying to please someone who wants to put him down every step of the way?
99.9% of men are never going to be president or senators. Hell about 99.9% of men won't even become millionaires. Out of about 6 billion people on this planet there are only 8.6 millionaires
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2009/06/24/millionaire-population-drops-15/
which comes to around 0.13%. In the US only 2.5 million out of 300 or so million people are millionaires.
Which is why it is ironic every time I hear dark skinned women hooting and hollering about the lastest Black man millionaire to marry someone who doesn't look like them.
You don't see their masculinity until they get somewhere and get something and when they do they are supposed to turn around and unquestionably honor your femininity? N_____ please!
"If a dark skin man prefers dark skin women then his is "normal", but if he prefers "light" then he is a "colorist"."
Your statement is almost laughable. In America, despite how varied the reactions may be, the most common reaction to a brother preferring a dark-skinned women is giving him more respect and relief. This is due to how a decent pocket of the American black community is colorist and how society is too. If a man prefers a light skinned woman, there may be a few eyerolls, but sadly a lot of people expect it. So it's not an issue.
Individual preferences aren't a problem until they become a system of oppression. The way colorism has thrived in America is becoming that way. For example, why is it that racist white designers like the blackest models in their adverts but that same model could never get anything more that a booty shot in most rap videos? Why do most adverts on BET have a not-so-black looking female? Why is that on TVOne's count of the "sexiest" people, a big chunk of the winners were light-skinned? Why wasn't it more diverse? If you believe that dark-skinned women are bitching about colorism for shucks and giggles, you are sadly mistaken. And more sadly, I can see why you would be mistaken. I'm a light-skinned Nigerian woman. I didn't think about colorism until a relative handed me bleaching cream when I was starting to get browner. That's because I didn't have too. Sadly, "light-skinned" commenters don't have to either. As awful as it sounds, that's a privilege that only a few in the ABC get.
HOWEVER, we all should give everyone the respect they deserve as men, women, and children.
Amen.
Out of about 6 billion people on this planet there are only 8.6 millionaires
I meant 8.6 million millionaires.
LOL, Truth B Told just can't stand it. Dark skinned black men face hardships. Heck, even our mixed race president is facing a huge backlash that's working unfortunately. Notice how bw can freely admit to the discrimination they face but this black man cannot. Face it, this is pretty much a white man's world. All white men have power in that they have white male privilege not afforded to bm. Case in point: Obama is demonized over the good he wants to do when people have forgotten about Bush (wm) who sent thousands of young people needlessly to their deaths.
Lastly, no woman has to see the masculinity in dark men. Some of us find men with light skin more sexually appealing. No amount of a dark skinned man "getting somewhere" or "getting something" will change that for those who are attracted to light men. Wasn't it you who talked about respecting people's preferences?
"Dark skinned black woman: Pretty for a dark skinned girl, ugly"
The difference is mostly in the features. Some people may actually think darker skin shades are ugly but IMO it when dark skin is paired with Negroid features (flat/wide/big nose and nostrils, thick lips & forward projecting jaws) and nappy hair that a lot of blacks object to this look on a BW. There are plenty of light skinned women with those same feature and while some bm may cutthem a bit of slackfor at least being light, no one is elevating these women as beauty queens, either.
Iman has facial features which are Caucasoid rather than Negroid. No one is trying to call her ugly, and she is NOT at all light skinned! I also remember when I was in high school there was a Jamaican girl who was half East Indian and half black. She was the same shade as Wesley Snipes but she had a tiny, pointed nose, small lips, silky curls and a small frame. Believe me, this girl had loads of attention from the boys.
The focus is always on the color in these discussion when it's mostly about features.
LOL, Truth B Told just can't stand it. Dark skinned black men face hardships.
I never said Black men didn't have hardships. Nearly everyone has hardships to some extent which is something that many Black women who cry colorism to seek sympathy from the world don't seem to understand.
Heck, even our mixed race president is facing a huge backlash that's working unfortunately.
We won't truly know about the backlash against Obama until 2012. Bush faced backlash too. And so did Clinton, who had people digging in his personal life for stuff to nail him with.
Notice how bw can freely admit to the discrimination they face but this black man cannot.
Black women only admit to it because they want something for it. I am not looking to capitalize on being a victim.
Face it, this is pretty much a white man's world. All white men have power in that they have white male privilege not afforded to bm.
No, all white men do not have power. Only a select few do. There is a difference between power and priviledge. White men may have priviledges (e.g. don't have to worry about the police, don't have their credentials questioned, etc).
If every White man had power, no White man would ever go to jail, no White man would ever lose his job for saying something stupid or non-PC, every White man would live in a Mansion, there would be more White men who would start as tailbacks in the NFL, etc.
Dick Cheney is a White man with power, which is why he got to shoot a man in the face (accidentally) and not go to jail. If an average white guy shot someone in the face, accident or no, he most likely will face reckless endangerment charges at the very least.
If you wish to worship them all as powerful then that is your preference. That's why many Black women in IR situations almost always end up dating/marrying down when most other women mostly marry up.
http://blackmenconfrontingthelies.blogspot.com/2008/12/do-black-women-often-marry-down-to.html.
I ain't mad at you though, like I said you have a right to prefer and worship your White man factory worker, plumber, bus driver, garbage man, etc.
Case in point: Obama is demonized over the good he wants to do when people have forgotten about Bush (wm) who sent thousands of young people needlessly to their deaths.
People have not forgotten about Bush, it just doesn't make any sense to make an extra fuss over him as he is no longer the president. If Hilary Clinton or John McCain were president, they would be facing opposition also from someone.
Lastly, no woman has to see the masculinity in dark men. Some of us find men with light skin more sexually appealing. No amount of a dark skinned man "getting somewhere" or "getting something" will change that for those who are attracted to light men. Wasn't it you who talked about respecting people's preferences?
This is exactly my point. It doesn't seem to be colorism unless if the victim is a dark skinned female.
You are under no obligation to prefer anyone you don't want to. And that courtesy should extend to everybody.
Now try telling that to the colorism police.
"@Grata
I'm sorry if the truth hurts. As Truth B. Told has stated no one ever mentions dark-skinned black men because they don't harp on this issue."
Oh dear what truth? You are a wishful thinker for sure. Still getting off on Dark Skinned women having a complex?
Gee, you should thank your gods every morning for your complexion. That seems to be all you've got going for you.
FYI- I am not as dark as I would like to be and I dislike my lighter self. So get over yourself. Its not that special to be light.
"If he dates a light-skinned black woman he suddenly is deemed self-hating by dark-skinned black women. "
Correction, if he dates a lighter woman and publically proclaims his preference for lighter women while putting down dark skinned women then he is a self hater. I hope you can get the clarification in your head.
"On the other hand dark-skinned black women stay on this issue. If a dark-skinned black woman dates a light-skinned black man or even a white man no one says anything."
You are too delusional, have you been reading this blog?
"That tells me who is keeping this issue alive. It's not society and light-skinned people who are keeping colorism going. It's dark-skinned black women."
LOL! What logic. See that is how you keep the status quo. Get the victim, stereotype them to further justify their abuse. Like I said thank your gods every morning for your light skin. LOL! I can't believe there are people like you that take their light skin this seriously.
If only my mother had lived here, she would have had a much easier life, LOL!
"Deflecting and trying to guilty others who have NO CONTROL over their shade of blackness is not going to solve the problem. Dark-skinned black women need to love themselves before expecting someone else to love them. "
Hahaha! Now you are the victim? LOL!
"From my point of view this is not a community problem. This problem lies with those individuals."
Read the "Color complex" to get a grasp on how light skin does indeed make a difference for one in this society. Then you can come back and talk like an adult.
And by the way I do understand that lighter skinned women are victimized for their complexion that is why it imperative that the issue is openly discussed.
But it looks like to people like you the benefits outweigh the negatives.
Well shaming and belittling dark skinned women won't make the issue go away. It will give you a brief sense of superiority but the problem of colorism will remain and guess what being a woman its bound to come to you. Just pray you never have dark skinned daughters.
IMO - It's more about what is perceived as being masculine or feminine.
A feminine looking dark-skinned lady (Iman, AJ Johnson, Rashumba,...) can have her choice of guys.
Same with masculine (The Rock, Vin Deisel, ...) guys. El Debarge look-a-likes are the ones viewed as lacking game.
I think it has more to do with desired traits within each social situation more than anything else.
"Since intra-race colorism doesn't affect black men nearly to the extent that it does black women, it does not exist. If it ain't happening to black men, then it ain't happening."
Exactly. If it ain't hurting the Black Man then its not happening.
"This sounds all too familiar. You sound like a white racist apologist. *sigh*"
Lady Dani,
THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one catching the parallels. Its quite amusing though,LOL!.
"Lastly its irritating once again to have our realities as Black women invalidated once again ---because we are “whining” not only by Black men but by white society. I suppose black men should stop whining about racism as well when they are DWB, false arrests, etc and just deal with it."
Dark Moon,
THANK YOU!
Yeah Black Women's reality has to be denied not only by society but with in th BC as well.
Which begs the question, why do Black Women still fight for the Black Man's cause?
If you are especially a dark skinned woman, you are statistically the least likely to benefit from the Black Man's progress.
"Stop trying to guilt people into liking what they don't want to like. It's not working. Instead it's turning people off."
Eh! Anon,
You really need to get a book and read or somethng.
Who says colorism is a problem only in the dating and marriage field?
Geez, I don't want to get exahausted explaining to you how colorism permiates every aspect of Black life. Mhen, why do you sound like the backwoods red neck people ?????
Again get over your light skin, mhen what would you do if you were white?
"My personal opinion is that colorism is primarily a black problem."
I have to disagree. Its not just a Black problem . When you look at employement statistics broken down. Light skinned Blacks do have much better social mobility. You think Obama would have been elected if he was dark skinned?
I once worked in an office were there was an Ethiopian gierl that could have passed for Hispanic and another AA girl who was dark. She (Ethiopian) was treated way better than we were and got a quick promotion. In our daily interractions she was considered as one their own (hispanics). I have also had Light or mixed race black tell me how hispanics try to claim them. So its not just in the Black community. It is alive and well everywhere.
And we should stop narrowing it down to dating and marriage choices. Its way bigger than that.
Its fact that Ligher skinned Black Males don't get harrased by the cops as much as Dark skinned men and they also fare way better in employment because they are "non threatening".
Hollywood is a good example where colorism is main stream. So its not Dark skinned women keeping this alive. Its as if people want Dark Skinned women to shut up as suffer silently. Its incredible.
"In a way this is almost a quid pro quo kind of a threat. Dark skin Black men better submit or they don't deserve legal justice."
It simply Black men need to nurture the same community they seem support from when they get entagled in the Justice system. You can't just run to the community when you need help while all your resources are dedicated elsewhere. Also as much as you need their support, it is your obligation to support the members of that community especially women and childre.
Black men today simply want to have it both ways. Marry out, live in the white neighborhood but run back for support when you get snared.
Its not quid pro quo because its not Black women that give justice, its the justice system. But you men expect the same community you abandon to march for your justice while you give nothing back.
And who fights for the BW and Child's justice?
Hmmmmm. May be you need to read the book th e:"Color Comples" and look at the statistics reagrading the social mobility of light skinned people both Male and female Vs those os dark skinned.
I am fully aware of the issues. Like I said earlier:
"I am a dark skinned Black man and there have been times in my life where I am pretty sure I have been told that "sorry, we are not hiring" when they really were or "sorry, there is no vacancy" and then still see the For Rent sign up weeks later. So I have two choices: excessively whine and complain or go look for another job/apartment that actually wants me."
"Point #2 - You can't compare racism to colorism because most of the evils of racism are OBJECTIVE and QUANTIFIABLE while the evils of colorism as we define it is SUBJECTIVE. Which means that there are remedies for racism that do not exist for colorism."
Hmmmmm. May be you need to read the book "The Color Complex" and look at the statistics regarding the social mobility of light skinned people both Male and female Vs those of dark skinned.
It is historically true the lighter skinned people fare better economically and socially. I wonder how you can argue yourself out of the facts.
I hope you will not spin away the fact that most of the urban poor blacks are disproportionately dark skinned blacks. Why is that do you think?
Your level of denial is unbelievable.
"Now if Marquis prefers his women "light, bright and damned near white" what is the remedy? There isn't one because Marquis is entitled to his subjective opinion. He is neither "right" nor "wrong" it just is."
OK. Lets get something clear here. People can have their hue preferances. That is their choice the problem comes when they start abusing those that don't fit their preferance. Which Black men are willing to do so openly. And many dark skinned women wouldn't be calling out their colorism if they were not wearing it like a badge of honor.
@Grata I can't take you serious because of your personal attacks on those who don't agree with your assertions. I'll get over my light-skin when you stop bringing it my attention along with your dark-skin. Again who is keep colorism alive? It's not light-skinned black women.
@ anon
I will not apologize for speaking my mind. The problems dark-skinned black women have are NOT noticed by society until these individuals bring it up. Light-skinned black women don't owe you or anyone else an apology. Just as you could not control your shade neither could we. It seems to me each and every time dark-skinned women want to blame someone they either target black men or light-skinned black women. You cannot guilt someone into liking you. If black men prefer those who are like that is their choice. If dark-skinned black women are being looked over for marriage then this issue of colorism is NOT exclusive to African Americans. Stop trying to guilt people into liking what they don't want to like. It's not working. Instead it's turning people off.
Get over your narcissism where in my post am I guilting anyone into liking me? Where did I say anyone in here owes me an apology? lmao The point that many are trying to convey is that colorism is still alive and it is not just an individual issue sweetie it is an social issue that affects black people. Read this essay on Black women skin tone discrimination then come back and debate.
http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychweb/Vol16-17/Brown.pdf
You have the right to your opinion and I have mines but I have the right to challenge it. You are absolutely correct that you can not change what you are born with. but we can change the system of oppression that denies certain people of privleges because of something as trivial as skin color, race, gender, and class. I'm laughing at you believing that I'm like the rest of the dark skin women who "rant and whine" about skin color discrimination. I have never experienced skin color discrimination on a personal individual level so I do not have any personal or bitter feelings against light skin black women or black men. I was like you never really gave my color any attention around other Blacks However, I can't stand the fact that others have been effected by it and I will remain empathetic. Just because I haven't experienced it doesn't mean that it does not exist and it also does not mean that I should be blind to it. Absolutely right some people have preferences but its more than a preference when you degrade someone else to justify why they are superior.
"Truth",
You are following the IIT playbook so well: starting out by pretending to actually discuss the topic at hand, speaking as an authority on the experiences of black women who is fit to judge the validity and importance of those experiences, including a limited number of mild/veiled insults at BW to start with, then progressing to broaching the topics in which you are truly interested (grievances of black men, expressing contempt for the interracial relationships of black women) and including more obvious inflammatory broadsides against BW.
Each comment you have left increasingly shows your intent is to insult and deflect the course of this discussion. You are not here to add anything to the conversation.
Now ladies, what were WE talking about again?
The points about darker skinned black men not "whining" about colorism brings two things to mind. The first one being that they do not experience colorism within the black community, except as beneficiaries. The "blacker the berry" adage is liberally applied when it comes to them and many darker black men pride themselves on this and claim greater masculinity based on this.
However when it comes to education, economics, and beyond in the larger community, this no longer serves as an advantage for them. It is an actual disadvantage. And they are willing to loudly protest in these cases. Remember the infamous Time cover with O.J. Simpson's mugshot? The one where his skin was darkened to roughly the tone of Michael Vick's? Recall the hue and cry (pardon the pun) that went out about that? They were not enraged because he was darkened to look more attractive and powerful. They were enraged because they knew he was darkened to look more menacing and violent.
When black men are subject to colorism/skin shade racism by whites, it is worthy of protest. When darker skinned black women are "disappeared" or loudly castigated as unfit partners then it's just a self-esteem issue they need to deal with.
_________________
Grata,
Correction, if he dates a lighter woman and publically proclaims his preference for lighter women while putting down dark skinned women then he is a self hater.
This is the key distinction. It is not an effort to get all black men to date darker black women. It is confronting the tendency to vociferously disparage the appearance and characters of dark-skinned black women. There is no need to proclaim your preference for biracial women, Kanye West. It's obvious by your casting in your videos and your girlfriends. There is no reason for other artists to go around calling bw "Dark butts" and other pejoratives.
The intent is to make known the displeasure these men have with darker/medium-skinned black women and to say to other men, "this is what *I* like (biracial or biracial appearing women/non-black women. This is what YOU should like, too".
A GENUINE preference isn't a problem UNLESS you DEMEAN, DEGRADE and DISRESPECT the NON-PREFERRED person, as is the case with those who practice COLORISM AGAINST dark skinned BW.
That is the MAIN REASON COLORISM AGAINST dark skinned BW is a PROBLEM that needs to be DESTROYED in the BC and WHEREVER ELSE it exists.
FYI- I am not as dark as I would like to be and I dislike my lighter self. So get over yourself. Its not that special to be light.
You are a self-righteous imbecile and a hypocrite. You need to get over your scatter-brained self and with a quickness. FYI: Apparently there are plenty of people outside of your tribe who feel "its not that special to be" dark. What makes their opinion/preference any less noble than yours?!
A lot of the dark skinned name-calling & victimizing I've been witness to in my life actually came from people who were no where near light themselves. Mostly it was dark skinned people taunting or ridiculing other darker skinned folks. I've seen it on many occasions ever since I was a child.
I'm a bit lighter than Beyonce, and I was taught by my parents to not make remarks, whether positive or negative, about darker complexions when in the company of dark skinned people due to the fact that my very dark older Uncle would go beserk and physically attack anyone who called him black.
I was going with a dark skinned guy a while back and when he saw my new next door neighbor, the guy came laughing to me about how dark the neighbor (the neighbor was a man, btw) was.
And that's mostly what I've noticed: dark skinned people making fun of people darker than themselves. And it's darker blacks who mostly tend to elevate and ooh & ahhh over light blacks. But somehow light skinned blacks, especially the women, are supposed to be the evil oppressing monsters in this whole scenario.
"I'll get over my light-skin when you stop bringing it my attention along with your dark-skin. Again who is keep colorism alive? It's not light-skinned black women."
Oh dear, ofcourse its not light skiined women. When you are not having the short end of the stick there is nothing to complain about.
Just keep it going. Just like whites never think about Blacks and their issues until its brought to their attention.
Ah, privilage, LOL!
"When black men are subject to colorism/skin shade racism by whites, it is worthy of protest. When darker skinned black women are "disappeared" or loudly castigated as unfit partners then it's just a self-esteem issue they need to deal with."
Thank you. I am mostly dissappointed by some women that are willing to look the other way while all this happens.
"The intent is to make known the displeasure these men have with darker/medium-skinned black women and to say to other men, "this is what *I* like (biracial or biracial appearing women/non-black women. This is what YOU should like, too"."
Now imagine if Black Women vilified Black men the same way using their skin tone by calling them out to be criminal and all the negatives attached to Dark skin on males. It would be all over for Black men. But they can't see how damaging their behavior is towards Darker skinned women.
"And that's mostly what I've noticed: dark skinned people making fun of people darker than themselves. And it's darker blacks who mostly tend to elevate and ooh & ahhh over light blacks. But somehow light skinned blacks, especially the women, are supposed to be the evil oppressing monsters in this whole scenario."
There is a self confessed light skinned anon that is talking crap. I wonder if you have read her posts.
Light skinned women are no where near the culprits but as a group that benefits from the disparaging of Darker Skinned Women they have a moral obligation to fight the injustice otherwise they are accomplices and are therefore part of the problem.
Like those whites that see racism as wrong, a light skinned person should be able to see colorism as wrong, not just sit and watch.
Whites got away with treating Blacks like animals for a very long time. How long will the BC let a portion of it abused and dehumanized?
Guys, Off topic.
Did you guys see this Dateline DBR guy. What a story.
Dangerous Liasons
"You are a self-righteous imbecile and a hypocrite. You need to get over your scatter-brained self and with a quickness. "FYI: Apparently there are plenty of people outside of your tribe who feel "its not that special to be" dark. What makes their opinion/preference any less noble than yours?!"
LOL! Tell me something I don't know. It is quite evident that most people in this society do uphold light skin otherwise we wouldn't be spending so much on the issue.
It bothers you that not everyone is a light skin worshipper. Yeah, get used to it.
And like I have said before, we don't uphold light skin over dark skin, that is hard for you to believe, too bad.
However there is an appreciation for a certain rare dark skin. I wouldn't call it a beauty standard because it is extremely rare. I would place it roughly occuring in 1 in 1000.
And a hypocrite and scatter brained ? Hmmmm if you mean my versatile skin tone then I am definitely a melanine hypocrite. I have a different tone for every location and I much prefer my darker self.
I know very few people with this type of tone diversity I may have up to 6 different tones. Many even accused of bleaching my skin once after my return from Europe.
And yes the treatment I get when I am lighter and that which I get when I am darker is way different.
So dear, being light is not as special as you believe atleast not for some of us. I am most comfortable in my darker version.
You are not here to add anything to the conversation.
Now ladies, what were WE talking about again?
Bull, you don't like what I have to say, so you are doing what too many Black women do in these conversations and just dismiss the speaker. I believe I asked the most poignant question of this discussion and it has been completely ignored. So I will ask it again:
What is or are some of the remedies to colorism?
I mean beyond the same old same old of name calling, guilting, shaming, making appeals to the outside world that could care less, etc you know the same old tactics that have not worked in the past and are probably not going to work in the future.
Wow, so much has been said. I would add that sometimes we, African Americans, should have a larger view of this particular problem. Some problems are unique to the African American experience but this isn't one.
As Dark Moon alluded to there are many ethnic groups that deal with colorism. Have you seen Asian women walking with an umbrella on a sunny day?
I think that this is a problem that is universal enough that many different so-called minority groups could participate.
I think that would allow African Americans to see that colorism isn't some sort of Black pathology but a direct result of our minds being colonized.
Two; allow us to begin to solve certain problems from a more universal perspective.
If we engaged Asians, South Asians, Mexicans, Dominicans, all of whom have long histories of dealing with colorism, we might all make some progress on the subject.
"But somehow light skinned blacks, especially the women, are supposed to be the evil oppressing monsters in this whole scenario."
You are not the only ones. Like I said, it's a power structure that is reinforced by dark and light black people and a racist society. The only qualm about light-skinned blacks is that they refuse to acknowledge the problems and poison colorism seeps because they either benefit from it or have the privilege of not noticing.
"It bothers you that not everyone is a light skin worshipper. Yeah, get used to it."
That's your assumption in everything you write on the subject. It is this same assumption that is causing you to write the most boneheaded backwards mess in an attempt to piss the so-called light skinned worshipper off. All youre really doing is invalidating your own argument.
FYI: I'm not the one claiming whether any skin tone is "special" or not. You are.
What is or are some of the remedies to colorism?
Whatever the solutions are, you clearly are not here trying to find any of them as you deny the existence of the problem and attempt to bully and shame black women into silence on the topic.
"So dear, being light is not as special as you believe atleast not for some of us. I am most comfortable in my darker version."
Special?! Attributing your own words and phrasing to other people. You are good for that.
"I mean beyond the same old same old of name calling, guilting, shaming, making appeals to the outside world that could care less, etc you know the same old tactics that have not worked in the past and are probably not going to work in the future"
Mhen its amazing how some sections of Blacks have learnt from white oppression and are willing to use the same tactics against the "lesser" ones.
This whole exposure to intra race discrimination has really openned my eyes to the point that I no longer feel so much the brunt of racism.
The effects of the intra race discrimination have numbed me from overall discrimination. Unless my life and welfare is in real and imminent danger, frankly I don't care how much racism there is out there.
If I am not welcome in certain places because of my race, that is really insignificant. If your own won't afford you some basic dignity why should you expect it from others?
At this point I think it is hypocritical for any Black to scream racism at whites while not looking closely at colorism. I think that should be the new standard, "racism?, yeah but what have you done about colorism? If there is no satisfactory answer then its the individual's personal battle.
I don't know why "Truth" sticks his nose in these discussions anyway. Being a homosexual male ("not that there's anything wrong with that"), why does he care so much about BW's heterosexual relationships?
"T", go and discuss racism among gays males; that's more up your alley.
"You are not the only ones. Like I said, it's a power structure that is reinforced by dark and light black people and a racist society. The only qualm about light-skinned blacks is that they refuse to acknowledge the problems and poison colorism seeps because they either benefit from it or have the privilege of not noticing."
Olen,
Isn't it amazing that you have to explain the effects of discimination t a fellow Black person. Some things are just so strange its so unreal.
I never said Black men didn't have hardships. Nearly everyone has hardships to some extent which is something that many Black women who cry colorism to seek sympathy from the world don't seem to understand.
Heck, even our mixed race president is facing a huge backlash that's working unfortunately.
We won't truly know about the backlash against Obama until 2012. Bush faced backlash too. And so did Clinton, who had people digging in his personal life for stuff to nail him with. --Truth
Cry me a friggin river. You have absolutely no understanding of what is going on with the backlash against Obama, but that is not the issue at hand. I won't be going off into any more tangents.
Lastly, you can rest assured that the colorism/racism issues that black men face are their own problem (re your other comment).
Grata, very true what you said re latinos.
To anon @5:34
Wow, the same old tired ass retarded BS. You can't even come up with something original. First I "want a white woman" and then I am "a nerd who is mad because I can't get none" and of course I predicted this in another thread a few weeks ago.
And if any of the above were true which they aren't, what difference would it make? Dissenting opinions are like kryptonite to some of you.
And shame on Siditty for violating her own Rule#1 and posting that hateful garbage not only against me but a group of innocent people.
Whatever the solutions are, you clearly are not here trying to find any of them as you deny the existence of the problem and attempt to bully and shame black women into silence on the topic.
This is a cop out. Which I am not surprised. Typical. You are not interested in discussing the issues, you just want to dictate them to people especially Black men and we are supposed to fall in line and just follow them without dare questioning them.
This is why people have become insensitive to you. I've practically wasted my computer time that I could have been doing something else more fun and productive. Instead I come here in search of answers and understanding and get attacked, veiled and direct.
I've asked twice and no one has replied with any solutions. Maybe you don't care about solutions, you just want to be victims.
Truth B. Told said...
"To anon @5:34
Wow, the same old tired ass retarded BS. You can't even come up with something original. First I "want a white woman" and then I am "a nerd who is mad because I can't get none" and of course I predicted this in another thread a few weeks ago.
And if any of the above were true which they aren't, what difference would it make? Dissenting opinions are like kryptonite to some of you.
And shame on Siditty for violating her own Rule#1 and posting that hateful garbage not only against me but a group of innocent people."
Mmmhmmm. The truth be told, I peeped your card months ago. Oh, and since my post included zero disparaging remarks against gays (other than to include you amongst their ranks), you obviously consider the mere mentioning of them to be "hateful garbage not only against [you] but a group of innocent people". Nice try, though.
@Grata,
It is strange. Unfortunately, it's very common.
Mmmhmmm. The truth be told, I peeped your card months ago. Oh, and since my post included zero disparaging remarks against gays (other than to include you amongst their ranks), you obviously consider the mere mentioning of them to be "hateful garbage not only against [you] but a group of innocent people". Nice try, though.
You know better than this, don't try to act innocent. You know calling a straight man gay is intended to be an insult, an insult which implies something wrong with gay people.
This is typical of the Black women who cry and complain about how they are being mistreated by the world but not giving a damn about how they treat other groups.
"That's your assumption in everything you write on the subject. It is this same assumption that is causing you to write the most boneheaded backwards mess in an attempt to piss the so-called light skinned worshipper off. All youre really doing is invalidating your own argument."
Hmmm. Your point is lost in the circles you are doing. Why waste space and your time writing essentially, nothing?
The argument of colorism within the Black community becomes even more ludicrous if the prevailing notion that supposedly dark skinned women are somehow trying to guilt or shame Black men into forcing themselves to be attracted to them and deny their preferences is an utterly and insultingly ridiculous idea. The reason why it’s a problem is the virulent physical and verbal condemnation of dark skinned women from Black women and men in the community. The continual an often insidious assault of what is acceptable. I have personally seen and protested against what I saw in my own family and in the community and it is very real and does damage the esteem of countless women who didn’t have positive reinforcement to combat the problem. Spike Lee in School Daze commented on this problem—and he is a Black man—so was he hallucinating—shaming Black men or was he commenting on a real social problem that impacts Black identity. Toni Morrison’s Bluest Eye was a profound condemnation of hating the color and features as Black women as well as the Color Purple by Alice Walker or Zora Neale Hurston’s Colorstruck—but since they are Black women authors who are out to castigate Black men and use it a vehicle to whine about their lack of broad appeal to said men—then their ideas—despite their Pulitzer prizes are moot.
Colorism is only part of the problem when you factor in the added shame of having strong Negroid features and thus your fate as a woman is often sealed—unless like Whoppi Goldberg who epitomizes what is considered ugly in the Black community and the majority culture—you are extraordinary and your talent can outshine whatever physical defects are deemed unacceptable in this society. Keen featured dark skinned women are still labeled pretty for a Black girl. Michelle Obama had to be nearly perfect in how she managed her image to American society in order to be deemed even remotely palatable. She had to be a house frau, a graduate from an elite school, be practicing in a highly regarded profession before most would even condescend to say that she is worthy of being with Obama. If she looked like Ari Parker or Michael Michelle—she would not have to prove herself. Again it’s the same trial by fire that Black people in general have to go through with non-Blacks to prove that they are human, normal and just as relevant and not a fire breathing sub human savage but as usual that kind of empathetic thinking never extends to Black women.
As Monie examples made clear Colorsim is not unique to the Black community—all communities who have been exposed to white racism and the insidious European ideal—are going to find that their original beauty ideas—unless they remain stubbornly isolated—change and may warp into an unhealthy fixation of becoming or having proximity of White. Again the East Indians and the Dalits are a perfect example in which a caste system oppresses them physically socially, and economically and effectively fated them as alien and invisible.
Colorism as it affects Black women (as well as AIDS, Domestic Violence, and Child exploitation) should be discussed and addressed by Black women only. Black men have no problem dismissing the concerns of Black women as whining, petty as forcing and shaming them, but Black women have consistently been on board with all their supposed petty grievances from OJ—to Gates and it’s because most Black women are thinking communally and realize that any criticism and condemnation of one member—will certainly not protect them from hatred from the Other.
As a final note—the power of Black women was realized in Liberia when through sheer force of will from a strong but uneducated group of women got Charles Taylor a murdering thug who plunged that country into a civil war which raped and murdered women and children and got Ellen Johnson elected. She has also appointed women into key areas of the government. So, if Black women would work together, instead of dragging each other down and being complicit in rules that we did not create—we could accomplish so much more.
To Truth B. Told and Lormarie - can't you guys just screw each other and get it over with? The both of you are starting to get boring. Stop acting and bickering like children. Geez.
"Truth",
We most certainly agree that the time you spend here is wasted.
I have already said everything to you that needed to be said in my prior comments.
_________
Dark Moon and Monie,
Do you know of any efforts these other groups have engaged in to combat colorism? While some of these could prove useful to black women, I agree that any solutions will most likely need to come from within our own group, especially since these other groups do not have a long-standing vociferous negative PR campaign against them by the men of their own group the way black women do.
I think some of the following needs to take place:
1. First and foremost we need to keep highlighting this issue and others that affect black women. It amazes me that someone not affected by colorism would come here to castigate us for not primarily being concerned with the plights of OTHER groups. Should I feel guilty when paying my own bills because other people have bills, too? How selfish and narrow-minded of me to do such a thing!
Those who feel the needs and interests of black women are nonexistent/unimportant are free to go lend their efforts to support those causes they believe in, rather than continuing to engage in the "same old same old of name calling, guilting, shaming" designed to stop black women from supporting causes THEY believe in.
2. The despicable Anti-BW PR campaign by black men has to stop. This is probably where tactics used by other groups to confront defamation could be put to use. We need organized efforts such as the Nelly protest at Spelman in order to be effective.
3. Addressing colorism in our personal lives. Someone at WAOD pointed out that many darker black women sharply criticized Michelle Obama and other famous black women in that range of skin tone precisely because of their own similarities with these women. I think a lot of them don't even realize this is why they are having such a reaction.
There is an actress people have told me I look like and the first time someone told me this, I started to open my mouth to say I did not think she looked anything like me. I was stopped cold when I realized of course she did b/c I disliked her for the same features I disliked in myself. And then I realized, "hey if other people think this woman's features are pretty and I have the same ones, then mine must be pretty also".
As a light-skinned black woman, I realize that I am much more likely to see someone who looks like me represented in mainstream media. I think it would be transformative if the women who look like Michelle Obama and other darker bw, saw them being upheld as an icon of beauty and style, and realized what that meant for them. When we encounter our black friends and relatives disparaging these women, we should ask them exactly what is it they object to and why.
4. I think parents of darker-skinned black girls have a duty to do everything in their power to safeguard their self-esteem in the face of colorism. Surround them of positive images of richly hued black women. Let them know you think their dark skin is beautiful.
Of course this isn't all of it.
I'm going to be completely honest here. This is a very real issue because it is affecting so many women.
But. Some Black women on this site and others seem to alway want to turn every single issue at the feet of Black men. I knew when I came back to this post. The usual suspects would invent some way to turn this on Black men.
Let go of the hate. It's making you ugly, and dishonest.
Tameka in her own words "the majority of the remarks come from African-American women and are mimicked by others." That is the real issue.
Also, I have said many times, I have never believed in this Black Loyalty myth.
So, if Black women are single. They are single because of ALL men, and not just Black men. You can you Black Men as your fall back crutch. Black women have access to ALL men. Its up to the man to approach. That is the cold hard truth.
Men set the barometer on what beauty is for women. This is true in every culture. Asian women who bound their feet to keep them tiny did so to please their men. Their men were Asian - not Caucasian , not Black, not Latino but Asian.
The comment that there is no understanding of why this issue w/dark skinned women comes back to black men shows me that without a doubt my belief that when someone does not know their role, the importance of the role and how it affects every day life for others is very damaging to society as a whole is very true. If you do not know and perform your role as policers of each other (men) then we are all lost.
If you do not know your roles and have the guts to lead within those roles we are ALL lost. If you who are born w/my same or similar features, same skin tone, same realities cannot look at me dark, medium, light and white in features etc. and proclaim me beautiful amongst all men then WHOSE job is that? Other men proclaim their women as beautiful and hold them up to be sure that the world sees that beauty. Women in these cultures try diligently to fit what the men say is beautiful. That is part and parcel how Euro features got to be so desired their MEN proclaimed them beautiful - hence some with dark hues use bleaching creams, and those with slanted eyes actually consider eye surgery to correct the very beauty they were born with. Whose standards are these women trying to meet pray tell? They are trying to obtain the desire of those who speak loudly about the beauty of the women in their culture etc. Yes, some of them (men) of different cultures too do not hold up all of their women as ex. of beauty, but should not men who claim they are leaders not understand the ignorance of this and DO BETTER? Should not men who watched and were helpless as their women were raped, shamed, lynched etc. understand that there is something wrong with this mindset of others not treating their women as women, as precious, as important KNOW better? And yet, shamefully they do not. They would rather argue than confront themselves about their implicit and complicit part in this -ism. They would rather point fingers than to say perhaps we should lead and try correcting this issue. They do not seem to get what it does say about them and their ability to lead in difficult times, difficult situations, painful conversations etc. It is so very sad.
Katt Williams - "it's called SELF-ESTEEM! It's esteem of your m#thafuckin' self!"
---------------------------------------------------------
Ladies you can't have it both ways. Either you belong to Black men or the Human race. If you are ascribe to the thought that Black men and Black women can date whomever they choose without explanation.
Then it doesn't matter what Black men do to praise Black women. Black women should be praised by All men. Right?
-----------------------------------
"The comment that there is no understanding of why this issue w/dark skinned women comes back to black men shows me that without a doubt my belief that when someone does not know their role, the importance of the role and how it affects every day life for others is very damaging to society as a whole is very true. If you do not know and perform your role as policers of each other (men) then we are all lost. "
What do you mean We?
Tameka said its Other Black Women doing the majority of the attacking of Dark Skinned Black women. So why are you passing the buck to Black men. What about Accountability? The age of Reasoning? Being a Grown Azz Person?
------------------------------------------
"but should not men who claim they are leaders not understand the ignorance of this and DO BETTER? Should not men who watched and were helpless as their women were raped, shamed, lynched etc. understand that there is something wrong with this mindset of others not treating their women as women, as precious, as important KNOW better?"
This is the only comment from you White Worshipping Black women that tick me off. Its like you women want to Hate Black men so badly. That you want to rewrite history. Black men DID NOT stand by and watch women get raped. They were killed. Black men were hung, and killed.
Ok, since you want to run with Slavery Card. How can you as Strong Black Women love white men so much who raped and killed your ancestors. Shouldn't you have learned from the past?
This is where you comeback with the "he wasn't alive back then or he can't be blamed for his ancestors mistakes." Well once again. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Either you forget about Slavery or you Don't. You can't pick and choose who to attach the horrors of Slavery too.
-----------------
The only thing that is Sad is YOU.
Dark Moon, Yanmomma, and Enigma,
THANK YOU for your very eloquent and constructive analysis of this REAL and DAMAGING problem for ALL BW.
Your clarity of thought in fleshing out this topic will help PRO-BW individuals to find an EFFECTIVE SOLUTION to DESTROYING COLORISM and UPLIFTING the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of ALL BW.
"That's your assumption in everything you write on the subject. It is this same assumption that is causing you to write the most boneheaded backwards mess in an attempt to piss the so-called light skinned worshipper off. All youre really doing is invalidating your own argument."
Hmmm. Your point is lost in the circles you are doing. Why waste space and your time writing essentially, nothing?
-----
LOL! the boneheaded part was dead on.
Truth be Told said:
"You can't compare racism to colorism because most of the evils of racism are OBJECTIVE and QUANTIFIABLE while the evils of colorism as we define it is SUBJECTIVE. Which means that there are remedies for racism that do not exist for colorism."
My response:
I usually do not agree with Truth be Told but in this case I do. Overt forms of racism (in employment and housing, etc.) are against the law. Overt forms of "colorism" "is not something that can be legislated against. You cannot legislate what turns a man on sexually. Either he wants you or he doesn't.
In another comment, Truth be Told asked the question "what is the solution to colorism"? Nobody offered a viable solution. So what is the point of this discussion if you're not going to offer a solution? Affirmative action does not apply to the bedroom.
By the way, if anybody thinks that other races of men are not colorist think again. White men, for example, invented the phrase "blondes have more fun". Meaning that a young, thin, blonde white woman with nice sized boobs is at the top of the food chain as far as white female beauty is concerned. Colorism is everywhere.
But what is the solution?
My dad & mother are married, still together, both black and going strong and they both raised me to be a woman who thinks critically. This change of convo/insult tactic never has worked w/me due to the fact that I was taught to stay on point.
Those who do not face their past, honor it & learn from it are doomed to repeat it. We were seperated by color and other criteria when we, were in slavery, during Jim Crow, thru the Civil Rights movement up to the current day. We do this sick seperation now amongst ourselves and try to justify it. We began to compare our features with those who did not love us & did not care for us. We do it now to each other and attempt to justify it. The litany of foolish things we do to each other goes on and on. But truly there is no justification of it on our parts. There just simply isn't.
Again, I stand by the truth that leadership is what is missing here for SOME black men. I see it now more than I see anything else. Thank you for more clarity is this regard. It was my dad that showed/ informed me that until a man sees who he is, what he does wrong, attempts to fix it etc., until he became accountable is willing to lead, protect and honor he is NOT a man. I watched him do it in my working middle class all black community every day of my life. I am very proud of him for that. My heart may remember those great days in the black community, but I know what stands in front of me today and the decisions I must make for my future. I know what I was shown and I have nothing to prove to you. I am looking and interested only in the quality of a man despite his race. My dad taught me that as well by the by.
Tameka's introspection is beautiful and honest. She put herself out there for all to see and admitted her flaws and her part in this situation. A lot of women of different races are doing it - I mentioned a couple of issues in my first post. What I am waiting for is men to LEAD in this arena, to be honest and own their issues & be accountable for them so forward movement can follow, to FINALLY begin to remember their roles in society at large again.
You are correct, I don't own you, and you do not own me. Bm and Bw do not own each other. That is why I treated YOU with respect. You decided (curiously) that trying to insult me was ok. Curious that, very curious.
To Truth B. Told and Lormarie - can't you guys just screw each other and get it over with? The both of you are starting to get boring. Stop acting and bickering like children. Geez.--Mimi
Sleeping with strange men may be your thing but it isn't mine. You may think that my comment was childish but yours was perverted.
Never claimed to be a strong black woman by the way. I am a woman.
When we discuss the killing of folks back in the day during those horrible racist times, it is usually a focus on the men and their suffering. We (bw) were there too. When they did Jim Crow and ya'll couldn't get jobs and we had to work in Ms. Ann's house and fight off Mr. Charlie, we were there too. When they killed and lynched ya'll and killed you in the streets they came back and killed the children and women too. You guys have NEVER walked alone. We were there fighting, dying, being raped, lynched etc. JUST LIKE YOU guys were. Like we were animals. Like we were less. Like we were other. Like we were not women needing protection like every other woman on the planet. Slave stories, Jim Crow stories, Civil Rights accounts I read indicate that this hurt and killed the black men's spirits during this time, watching this, living thru it as the bw suffered and they could just stand their helpless thought they wanted to protect and fight they were outnumbered. When some bm got the chance to fight back when times changed they decided to take care of their lives, their women, their children - they DID. It was a matter of honor, it was because when the chances came and they could they decided that they would lead come hell or high water.
And YET this serious and painful -ism clearly grounded in these periods in time when race determined life and death does not bother SOME bm when it is applied to bw.
So, if Black women are single. They are single because of ALL men, and not just Black men. You can you Black Men as your fall back crutch. Black women have access to ALL men. Its up to the man to approach. That is the cold hard truth.
Yea, dat's right. Black wimmens is sangle cuz no man is aksing dey ugly asses out--dat de cole hard truth. Cuz you kno iffen any man wuz to aks dem out, dey wuldent turn NO man down. I doesn't beleeb in no black loyalty, and you kno whateva I beleeb is de cole, hard indespootable truth. You heffas stop bein so ugly and dem mens might gib you some play. And dat's de gospel truth.
Tameka said its Other Black Women doing the majority of the attacking of Dark Skinned Black women. So why are you passing the buck to Black men. What about Accountability? The age of Reasoning? Being a Grown Azz Person?
---------------
It's black men who are involved in a disproportionate number of the murders, muggings, rapes, drug related crimes and child abandonment issues in the US. These are not so much black issues as they are black male issues. What about accountability? The age of reasoning? Being a grown azz person and not looking to black women to come to your rescue when you're caught in the middle of one of you're heinous pastimes?!
White men, for example, invented the phrase "blondes have more fun". Meaning that a young, thin, blonde white woman with nice sized boobs is at the top of the food chain as far as white female beauty is concerned.
------
If I'm not mistaken, that phrase was invented to sell hair dye. Clairol, I think. The idea behind it was that anyone with the appropriate shade of hair dye can be a blonde.
When they killed and lynched ya'll and killed you in the streets they came back and killed the children and women too. You guys have NEVER walked alone. We were there fighting, dying, being raped, lynched etc. JUST LIKE YOU guys were.
I still recall one case I read about where a group of racist whites were in the process of setting a fire under a bm they had just hanged, when his pregnant wife comes running up, shrieking and crying at seeing what was happening to her husband. The racists' response to her shrieking was to hang her also and to set a fire under her body. At some point while the fire was raging under her, the baby fell out of her body and into the fire.
Enigma
- "When they killed and lynched ya'll and killed you in the streets they came back and killed the children and women too. You guys have NEVER walked alone."
I clearly understand that everyone was suffering. But it seems like some Black women of Today want to rewrite History and make it seem as if Black men suffered nothing.
"Should not men who watched and were helpless as their women were raped, shamed, lynched etc. understand that there is something wrong with this mindset of others not treating their women as women, as precious, as important KNOW better?"
What men? As far as I can tell all of those men are dead. Unless you are doing the selective Slavery thing. Because then there are a lot of White men sleeping with the slave girls right now. According to you.
"And YET this serious and painful -ism clearly grounded in these periods in time when race determined life and death does not bother SOME bm when it is applied to bw."
How exactly do you know this? How were you able to come up with this erroneous belief? Amazing.
Also, What year was this glorious Black community that everyone remembers so fondly. I can't seem to find it anywhere in History.
--------------------------
Anon - 4:18. Get a life. Man/Woman Black/White/Other
You are an immature child.
----------------------------
Anon - Red Herring
What does that have to do with Black women using Colorism against other Black women?
Water is wet, and the Sun is Hot. Those are Facts.
You inability to stay on topic is also a Fact. If you aren't able to discuss the issue without resorting to the same lame hate black men attacks. Then sit quietly in the corner and let grown ups talk.
Lormarie you make a good point. There is scientific literature on colorism, and it mentions that while dark-skinned men are often seen as sex symbols (Wesley Snipes and Don Cheadle were both mentioned in one article that comes to mind), they are also stereotyped as criminals, dangerous, and animalistic.
Enigma said,
Slave stories, Jim Crow stories, Civil Rights accounts I read indicate that this hurt and killed the black men's spirits during this time, watching this, living thru it as the bw suffered and they could just stand their helpless thought they wanted to protect and fight they were outnumbered. When some bm got the chance to fight back when times changed they decided to take care of their lives, their women, their children - they DID. It was a matter of honor, it was because when the chances came and they could they decided that they would lead come hell or high water.
laromana said,
Enigma, thanks for CLARIFYING how BM who understood what REAL MANHOOD IS, treated BW.
Because the black community that I grew up in was not a part of your history does not mean that what I have stated is not valid or it was not a part of mine. It just means it was not a part of your experience. I am very proud that I was blessed to be a part of it. Which is why I see this situation VERY differently than you do.
I remember men getting a guy and letting him know that if they all had to come out of the house to get him they would. I remember men stopping dogs etc. from attacking folks when they saw them and confronting the dog owner later. I remember men who by virtue of the fact that they stayed with, took care of, and would defend their wives and children at ANY COST put the neighborhood and others on notice that to come here and act a fool would be a baaadddd decision. That is what I remember. That is what I KNOW. If you never lived there, in that kind of black community I am sorry. I did.
There are a lot of things missing from history books when it comes to black folks. What's new about that?
My life experiences is why I use we and MEN because the men I KNEW/KNOW accepted their responsibilitie, had no issue performing them collectively or individually and performed them without a second thought.
To wit there are a few things I will address in your statements to me as succintly as possible:
I never stated this, this is what you inferred for reasons I do not know:
" Because then there are a lot of White men sleeping with the slave girls right now. According to you. "
I never mentioned white folks/men etc in any of my post when it came to relationships. I stated I am looking for quality. If you inferred that to mean white me, then that is your choice.
As to your response about the statement that I made and do stand by:
"And YET this serious and painful -ism clearly grounded in these periods in time when race determined life and death does not bother SOME bm when it is applied to bw."
Your response: How exactly do you know this? How were you able to come up with this erroneous belief? Amazing.
Then why are you discussing this with me? What then is the source of your conflict with me and women who say that this is painful to bw? Is it because I stated that bm do not seem to care? Do you not find it odd that you told me that my idea is erroneous to believe but all of your responses to every woman who has responded to you has been (to paraphrase) a chant of "suck it up and deal and let your self esteem be your guide"? Again, what is the source of your conflict, for if you are saying that some black men do feel empathy and understand what bw are saying when it comes to this -ism, why are you upset then that women are saying we need bm to remember to let the world know that we are beautiful and you love us too? That you would defend us too? What, again is the source of your conflict with what some of the women on this site are saying? Besides I also stated the word some which implies that I do not believe that all bm believe this. By the by, I am really do not want a response for these questions, I am just wondering aloud what is the point of the discussion we are having then if you agree that some bm do and some don't participate in this -ism.
Cont.
You state that slavery is over, and the men who endured this horrific situation and watched these atrocities against bw are dead. Yes they are. However, I believe in honoring the dead, their memories etc. I cannot just dismiss them because it now makes my back tired. That is why I carry myself as a lady, wear my heritage proudly and do not forget it, even when it is convenient to do so. I know and understand my responsibilities and whom I am accountable to which includes parents,neighbors and friends that nurtured me and lifted me up on their tired shoulders as far as they could so that I can do better. I do not conveniently forget the struggle that it took to get me here, nor do I take it for granted. I make it my biz to understand their choices, their lives so that I will not walk that path again that they walked in both tears and blood. I would not spit on the ancestors graves like that by forgetting what they've done and been through and what they decided to overcome. What you decide to do again, is your choice.
I do nor participate in chest beating contest with men. I just don't. This discussion and continuous back and forth is for naught. I do NOT see the world thru your eyes, and you do not see it thru mine. OK. I do not agree with you, and I have given my reasons. OK. You still do not agree with me. OK. Please note and be clear that I am OK with that. I will not engage you with this convo any longer. I am PERFECTLY OK with the fact that we see life differently, we see bm and bw relationships & life experiences differently. OK. OK. OK.
Everyone have a great day.
"If I'm not mistaken, that phrase was invented to sell hair dye. Clairol, I think. The idea behind it was that anyone with the appropriate shade of hair dye can be a blonde."
And why did so many white women want to be blondes? So some of that "blondes have more fun" mystique could rub off on them. Studies have been done to show that blonde white women get more attention from men than white women who are not blonde. The point is that colorism exists among whites and all other racial/ethnic groups.
"The difference is mostly in the features. Some people may actually think darker skin shades are ugly but IMO it when dark skin is paired with Negroid features (flat/wide/big nose and nostrils, thick lips & forward projecting jaws) and nappy hair that a lot of blacks object to this look on a BW. "
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Yes! This is a conversation that Black people ignore. This problem is just as bad if not worse than colorism.
There are light skinned BW who have a hard time with relationships too, so the idea that only dark skinned BW are lonely and bitter is nonsensical.
My only 2 cents would be: if you hear someone making an anti-BW comment, whether about a dark or light skinned woman, address it immediately.
My enemy is not the light skinned BW. My enemy is someone who tries to put me down just because of how I look or because of who I am. My enemy can come in any skin shade and any gender.
Tameka's problems may be alot more complicated than being dark skinned since I know dark skinned women who were very critical of her - none of them mentioned her complexion. They were more concerned with whether she was a good match for Usher. None are too surprised that their relationship didn't last.
"LOL! the boneheaded part was dead on."
Hmmmm. Interesting how fear of losing one's skin privilage drives people to the edge. You should therefore have more empathy with the Palin crowd. There is hardly any difference between your type and them.
"So, if Black women would work together, instead of dragging each other down and being complicit in rules that we did not create—we could accomplish so much more."
Dark Moon,
Very well said. I for one believe Africa can only be saved by its women. I have long given up on the men there.
What is interesting is that even Neanderthal Jacob Zuma,SA, appointed majority women to his cabinet.
Unfortunately, I get the feeling that there are those who benefit from the status quo and are not at all interested in that struggle.
Afew of those can be seen here. These are the women who enable the Black Man to continue behaving the way he does because its to their benefit.
"Should I feel guilty when paying my own bills because other people have bills, too? How selfish and narrow-minded of me to do such a thing!"
Don't you know that Black Women are supposed to take care of everyone else other than themselves.
Responding to my call for BW to ration their support for BM ensnared in the legal system, one Black Male matter of factly said that BW should be concerned about the humanity of others not the gender or race. So Black Women are these bearers of all humanity's burden.
Who carries the BW's burden?
Next time you are standing up for a Black Man's cause, think, does he stand for the BW's an child's cause? The proceed to act accordingly.
"They do not seem to get what it does say about them and their ability to lead in difficult times, difficult situations, painful conversations etc. It is so very sad."
Enigma,
Thank you for putting it so eloquently.
My conclusion judging by the comments of Black men is that the Black man is never at fault for anything in this society.
"it's called SELF-ESTEEM! It's esteem of your m#thafuckin' self!"
Back to those parallels again. The racist would call it, "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and stayng out of the trouble".
In otherwords your problems are created by YOU!
LOL! I could do this all day.
"Tameka said its Other Black Women doing the majority of the attacking of Dark Skinned Black women. So why are you passing the buck to Black men."
LOL@ The simplicity. So again Black men are not to Blame here since Tameka says so.
"How can you as Strong Black Women love white men so much who raped and killed your ancestors. Shouldn't you have learned from the past? "
So what is the so called 70% of BW supposed to do in the absence of marriageable BM? Just sit and watch?
And how can BM date WW who were complacent in the same period ?
BM like you like to conviniently write off the existance of a Black Community. Taking the individualist stance when it comes to marriage and dating but run back for to the same community being held up by Black women when you get stuck.
You men have mastered this game.
I was amused to see Harold Ford on MSNBC completely loose it during the Gates Affair. I had long forgottend he had some Black in him.
Black when one needs back up. People like you need to take the whole individualist thing to the end and never look back. You are parasites on the BC.
"Overt forms of racism (in employment and housing, etc.) are against the law. Overt forms of "colorism" "is not something that can be legislated against. You cannot legislate what turns a man on sexually. Either he wants you or he doesn't."
And this is a big problem when addressing this subject. Most people assume its all about complaints about sexual preferances of BM. It has been stated over and over again that such preferances are a personal choice. The problem comes when Dark skinned women are vilified by the same men with those preferences.
And teh comparisons edo hold. Form what I have heard College Sororities still largely pary attention to skin tone and recent history is rich with skin color discrimination in housing and employment. So it is not a stretch to compare the two.
Even in intimate terms colorism doesn't only affect BW. I have heard of many cases of Light skinned women being told not to bring home a dark skinned man. I have a friend whose family was against her marrying a dark skinned man who also happened to be African. Both were issues for the family.
"Also, What year was this glorious Black community that everyone remembers so fondly. I can't seem to find it anywhere in History."
WOW!@ this Black Community denying.
"There are light skinned BW who have a hard time with relationships too, so the idea that only dark skinned BW are lonely and bitter is nonsensical."
True. Colorism is double edged. I have seen many light skinned women victimized because of their skin tone by the same men that love it.
That is why when people focus the discussion on Dark skinned women, they are being unjust to all women.
Its in the interest of all women to fight this.
"To Truth B. Told and Lormarie - can't you guys just screw each other and get it over with? The both of you are starting to get boring. Stop acting and bickering like children. Geez."
I am rarely shocked but his coming from a BW is quite something and unnecessary.
The statement that white men prefer blondes is incorrect. Study after study has shown that most white men prefer brunettes over blondes and tend to think that blondes are less smart and less pleasant than brunettes. If you want proof of those facts, look them up. It's Madison Avenue that keeps perpetuating the image of the blonde as the white woman beauty ideal. And white supremacy wants to keep the blonde in that place because the blonde woman is the "ultimate" "pure" white woman. So keep that in mind as you argue to try to justify the blonde as the ideal of female beauty and supporting or ignoring colorism - what you're doing is discriminating based on the same rationale of and helping to maintain white supremacy. If I were a white supremacist writing the playbook for keeping black americans down, I would invent colorism. It gets the job done of maintaining white supremacy without the white supremacist having to do a lick of work. The black americans maintain their inferiority all by themselves.
Because you know of course that racism is "objective" as some black men here maintain, while colorism is "subjective" (yes, it's so subjective that black people can't tell light skin from dark skin, but we've managed to maintain colorism for how many decades). And the subjective can't be fought or fixed. What a nasty lie - the solution that some of these men here keep asking about is a simple one - it's called change - it's called growing up. But that's not going to happen, is it? Because colorism is a problem that mainly affects black women, so it's not a real problem, not like racism is a real problem because that is focused on black men. Black men want Black women to stay focused on racism and join black men in that fight, but black men have no intentions of sharing those gains with black women (except for a very few favored light skinned women). Yes, black women - ignore your own issues and fight my issues, and then I will ignore you and degrade you in favor of every other woman on planet earth! What, you don't think that's a good deal?!
Black women need to recognize and recognize fast - we are in this battle alone. So we had better get together and save ourselves. Trying to save black men is not only impossible and unnatural - it is also a joke, it is the opposite of what nature intended, and it won't work. You will only be dragged down with them, so wise up, move on and save yourselves. BW are worth the effort.
"The problem comes when Dark skinned women are vilified by the same men with those preferences."
So it's OK for black men to prefer light/white skinned women just so long as they don't talk about it. By the way, most black men who aren't attracted to dark skinned black women don't run around "vilifying" dark skinned black women in public.
"Form what I have heard College Sororities still largely pary attention to skin tone and recent history is rich with skin color discrimination in housing and employment."
The last I heard sororities are run by females.
"I have a friend whose family was against her marrying a dark skinned man who also happened to be African. Both were issues for the family."
So what? Dark skinned black men don't whine about this the way some dark skinned black women do. They just move on. Dark skinned black women should do the same.
"So what is the so called 70% of BW supposed to do in the absence of marriageable BM?"
They can do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping them. But who is to say that 70% of black women are "marriageable"? Some are lesbians (they might want to be married but NOT to a man). There are more black lesbians then you think. Some straight black women don't want to be married. MANY black women have multiple illegitimate children by multiple men. Are these women marriageable?
Note: Stop repeating stuff you've obviously read on other so-called black women's empowerment blogs. It's so tired.
Yanmommasaid & Monie
I agree that it is extremely counterproductive to engage Black men in this discussion because it is debilitating unhelpful and ultimately hurtful. I do agree with point 1 that Black women should show more interest in forming an alliance that speaks to our unique challenges and that it will serve to be a practical platform that would engender better consensus, but it is difficult since dealing with Racism often splits our reservoir of interest and energy and directs it to fighting the racist fight. Of course that is not to say that Black women can’t do many things at once, but since this is a patriarchal society, often times, the needs of the men and thus the will of the community takes precedence over “women problems.” Moreover, I don’t think some Black women are able to make the connection that championing for their group interests is not selfish or taking away from the community since healthier women overall makes a stronger community—however because religion plays such a big role and is often stultifying and paternalistic, I think it is all the more difficult to get Black women to focus on their own needs and joining with other Black women without tearing each other down in the hopes of keeping and or currying favor with Black man and/or White society.
Education is the key, however as the article stipulates, Black women are often the perpetrators of colorism and pitiable loathing of Black features. This is in part due to the fact that many in the Black community buy into the notion of Black physical features, in all it s diversity, are wrong and only light and/or keen features and wavy hair is the only acceptable faces of Black women beauty. We have magazines such as Essence and Honey that attempt t create positive glossy images of Black women from dark to light, but it is not enough.
In addition, there is the covert sense of apathy that may prevent illumination due to the fact that many Black women are living in basically demilitarized war zones and enduring a cycle of poverty. They are held hostage to violence, in which they are used and abused with impunity, apathy, and nihilism that renders their needs and desires unimportant and thus invisible to everyone else. Trying to break through the class divide while also galvanizing wealthier blacks to recognize the commonality and camaraderie of poorer Blacks is a major obstacle to overcome. In addition, we rely on Black men to tell our stories from Tyler Perry to Jerome Dickey. There voices are strident precisely because Black women buy into those images and thus perpetuate the never ending cycle of self loathing. I don’t see enough Angelous, Zora’s, and Morrison in film, literature, the arts, science, etc that are making powerful decisions (even when you factor in the often used stat that more Black women are in college—but where is the creativity and desire to improve our image instead of waiting on a man to do it) that will help change the face of Black women as a positive. This in turn will counteract the negative PR campaign from Black men and White society continually propagates with impunity.
In your point three it is difficult to address colorism and loathing of Negroid features if there is no awareness of what they are doing which refers back to your second point that Education has to be the driving force to get women to wake up and make changes. You had more than enough self awareness to realize that you were projecting your personal issues, but many Black women do not see that. Again if Tamakea was as young as Rhianna and looked like Ari Parker she would never have been so severely critized and deemed unworthy to be married to him.
Of course, as has been noted before light skinned women certainly face challenges within and outside the community but the condemnation of Black looks and skin color are less severe thus they may tend to underestimate a problem that they don’t experience on the daily. And this thinking is similar to Whites who downplay racism because they don’t see and experience it so it doesn’t exist.
yanmommasaid and Monie (cont'd)
Naturally, this goes back to Black women regardless of country of origin class and social background, if we can see the commonality in each other—be able to exercise a high degree of empathy—in which we are at least able to see each other’s point of view, then it is more likely that we would be more willing to work together to combat attitudes, images and social and cultural mores that are harmful to Black women. The Liberian women was truly inspirational because these women were poor, uneducated and without the raft of resources that we have in America—yet they were able to get a disgusting murdering dictator and evil cadre out and help elect a candidate who looked like them and mirrored their values. Thus in order for parents—mainly mothers to instill a sense of purpose and self esteem, they have to believe what they are saying and they must not be swayed by what other black people and greater society tells them is ugly or wrong.
Thus I think the solutions are not difficult, since Blacks have been talking about colorism and negroid features for ages, but it is the will and the desire for a new kind of thinking and the means to incite positive cultural change—that will prove more challenging.
**********************************
Very well said. I for one believe Africa can only be saved by its women. I have long given up on the men there.
What is interesting is that even Neanderthal Jacob Zuma,SA, appointed majority women to his cabinet.
Agreed. Looking at many of the struggles in some African countries—women are really the best hope for salvation—this explains the rape campaigns in the Congo, the Janjaweed, etc. they know that hurting and killing women (women are the transmitters of cultural norms and tradition) and children will devastate, devitalize and destroy a community quite effectively.
"So what is the so called 70% of BW supposed to do in the absence of marriageable BM? Just sit and watch?"
If Black women don't Belong to Black men.
Then how can black men be responsible for 70% of BW being single?
I am just trying to expose the inconsistencies in a lot of the Rhetoric people use everyday.
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"WOW!@ this Black Community denying."
I swear if its not coloring by numbers. People will never get it.
The point I was trying to make was the Black men and Black women have always been struggling in America. Always. The men and women had to work. While Whites had leave it to Beaver 1950s. Blacks were still being oppressed and disenfranchised.
So that is why I always question people. Who says the "Good Ole Days" of the Black Community. I'm sure if you ask people of that era. It wasn't that Good.
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"My conclusion judging by the comments of Black men is that the Black man is never at fault for anything in this society.'
Wrong Again. Its just some women want to place Blame on things Black men could never control.
Who are Black men responsible for what a Black woman says out of her own mouth. Nobody is but that woman. Right?
How are Black men responsible for another man of another race not approaching a Black woman. I would love to get an explanation on that one. If we can't control other mens decisions. Right?
Black men cannot control how a woman feels about herself. Its your body, and your mind. Its amazing that a woman can get a masters degree all by herself. But she cannot control how she feels? She places all of that responsibility on Black men? Does that add up to you?
Tangible things that Black men are control of. You will get no arguement. In fact when Black Man haters bring up negative stats about black men. I never deny them. I just question what does that have to do with a certain subject. You can check for yourself.
That is the difference. Black women are not robots. They have their own minds, and shame on me for treating them as individuals.
It's interesting that when you go to Evia's blog or the other BW IR blogs, you see loads of photographs of dark skinned women and White (or other non-black) men. So this idea that dark skinned BW are the plague is nonsensical.
Also check out "Thoughts of a White B'woy" where a Swedish male sings the praises of dark skinned BW.
If someone doesn't like you because of your complexion, move on. Address the negative when necessary, but don't dwell on it.
Hopefully Tameka will get herself together and find someone nice to spend her life with (outside of the public eye).
"Black women need to recognize and recognize fast - we are in this battle alone. So we had better get together and save ourselves. Trying to save black men is not only impossible and unnatural - it is also a joke, it is the opposite of what nature intended, and it won't work. You will only be dragged down with them, so wise up, move on and save yourselves. BW are worth the effort."
Sandra,
Thank you very much for being precise.
I have long given up on the battle against colorism. I doubt it can be won. Black Women need to focus on taking care of themselves.
"So it's OK for black men to prefer light/white skinned women just so long as they don't talk about it."
Oh dear. What logic are you following? When does Black men vilifying Black women equal to denying their attraction to light skinned women.
Does the phrase "Dark Butt" equal to nothing being said of light skinned beauty?
You had to bring back attention to the light skinned woman yet the problem defined is the abuse of the Dark Skinned woman. Mhen, there can't be enough attention for light skin.
"The last I heard sororities are run by females."
So? Females don't practise colorism? LOL! That shows how narrow mainded you are on the subject.
"So what? Dark skinned black men don't whine about this the way some dark skinned black women do. They just move on. Dark skinned black women should do the same."
Parallel time. If people like Oprah can make it, so should every disadvantaged Black.
Back to colorism, in case it isn't obvious to you yet, Dark skinned Black men suffer alot less on the dating and marriage scene than Black Women. Geez, have you been reading the other posts? I thought that was basic.
"Note: Stop repeating stuff you've obviously read on other so-called black women's empowerment blogs. It's so tired."
Spoken like a true paper Black man. Ofcourse its tired like people are tired of hearing about the po Black Man.
"How are Black men responsible for another man of another race not approaching a Black woman. I would love to get an explanation on that one. If we can't control other mens decisions. Right?"
Who said anything about blaming Black men for other men not wanting BW?
Mhen you are too narcissistic.
Of all things in Black society,I am yet to hear a Black man take responsibility for some of what ailes the BC. I have not come across one in Blogosphere. The only BM I can think of who has called out BM is Farrakhan.
But you had to turn around the argument and focus is on the BM not being responsible for the low desireability of the BW.
WOW! Am I ever so greatful that I am not attracted to Black American men. I pity those who are.
"Tangible things that Black men are control of. You will get no arguement. In fact when Black Man haters bring up negative stats about black men. I never deny them. I just question what does that have to do with a certain subject."
LOL! And shamelessly you accept that you deflect the subject of BM statistics when that is brought up by stating it has nothing to do with the current topic. How typical. Don't challenge the argument but rather deflect. Just like you turned the attention to BM not being responsible for how BW feel despite the fact that its the same BM that practise colorism and go a step further and abuse dark skinned women.
Yeap, We get it. My new conclusion is, BM are never at fault for anything and if one presents facts, its not the time and place to discuss them.
You have given quite an education here. Thank you very much.
"It's interesting that when you go to Evia's blog or the other BW IR blogs, you see loads of photographs of dark skinned women and White (or other non-black) men. So this idea that dark skinned BW are the plague is nonsensical."
Oh dear, these parallels are too much. But more of that later.
Evia's blog is attempting to address the issue of Dark skinned Women being under/mis-represented. Put her blog against the back drop of Mass Media and see how effective it is. Exactly.
Now to the parallels. Since there is a substantial number of Blacks getting into college, we don't need affirmative action now do we?
Privilage I tell you.
I tried to avoid this discussion but I'm putting my 2 cents anyway.
We don't all live in a vacuum. I feel I am responsible for how my words and actions affect and hurt people. Disagree if you will.
There is a level of basic respect that is missing on both sides of the argument.
No one is trying to dictate who one should be attracted to or who one should marry.
Since when did expecting to be treated with a modcum if decency 'asking for something' as someone said previously.
Really though, not wanting to be called a 'dark butt', 'pretty for a dark girl' and vilified horribly as some BW are does not mean we're trying to date you.
Being more dateless may be a byproduct of the contempt but it doesn't mean I expect people to change their preferences just because it leaves me out.
The only variable for change is self but when you live in a society there is a level of courtesy that is required.
Grata. I think we have all been educated about your mindset.
I hope you have a successful and long marriage to whatever lucky non-black man you get with.
@Joe Clyde:
Are you as upset when Black men worship White women (or other non-BW women) as you are with Grata?
Grata represents alot of BW - some of whom have decided to move on.
You seem to have a hard time acknowledging that colorism may be a serious issue for some BW. Perhaps BW should stop worrying so much when BM scream racism and then you would understand what some BW are going through.
It would be nice if BM would at least acknowledge that BW have some serious issues that we are dealing with rather than telling them to shut up.
Perhaps colorism is a minor issue for you and other BM, but for some BW it is a serious problem that they have to deal with on a recurring basis.
Good night yall.
It really should go without saying that no one should be bullied, shamed or insulted into desiring/dating someone else--and that method obviously doesn't work anyway.
----------------------------------
If you feel bullied and shamed then that is your problem
Jamdown,
Your patience with SELF INVOLVED, SELF HATING, DBR ANTI-BW BM is admirable but the CONSTANT DISRESPECT these individuals show when BW are mistreated confirms why BW need to CUT them OUT of EVERY aspect of their lives.
Hopefully Tameka will get herself together and find someone nice to spend her life with (outside of the public eye).
-------------------------------
what an interesting choice of words
What is an ad hominem argument?
An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by ATTACKING…a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or PRODUCING EVIDENCE against the claim.
The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby SUBVERTED, and the ad hominem argument works to CHANGE the subject.
Truth b told asked:
There is an unspoken arrogance among women who cry colorism. If a dark-skin man prefers dark-skin women then his is "normal", but if he prefers "light" then he is "colorist".
Do you hear yourself? You are basically saying that "if you don't prefer me, then there is something wrong with you." If that is not the epitome of arrogance then I don't know what is.
Men in general are passing on Dark-skinned women for lighter women. Not only are dark-skinned men not marrying them but light, white and Asian men aren’t…
What is the remedy? I am truly interested. The problem has been highlighted. What is the solution?
Yanmommasaid:
Whatever the solutions are, you clearly are not here trying to find any of them as you deny the existence of the problem and attempt to bully and shame black women into silence on the topic.
Menelik asks:
Yan, would the question have been better served if someone other than truth b told had asked it? If so, can you merely imagined the question being asked by Siditty, for example, and just simply answer the question?
Anyway, as I said elsewhere, as long as readers know EXACTLY what is meant by the phrase “ad hominem argument” and what its SOLE function is, I’m more than happy…
Regards
Menelik Charles
London England
PS Joe Clyde, I sent you an email a few days ago at your blog.
Jamdown - Do you even read what I type or you just see Black man and get defensive?
Do yourself a favor and start from the beginning and read objectively.
BW should demand RECIPROCITY from EVERYONE who expects their support.
There's NO REASON why
BW are OBLIGATED to SUPPORT ALL BM, especially when it's CLEAR that MANY are ANTI-BW HATER BM who could CARE LESS when ANYONE/EVERYONE TRASHES the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.
Once Again. A topic gets detracted by certain individuals trying to find ways to link every single issue to Black men.
---------------------------------------------
I am noticing that Tameka is getting a lot of backlash from people about expressing her views. The very same people who said that she was too dark skinned, and unattractive for Usher.
I am glad that she wrote the article. It will allow people to choose sides openingly in this never ending discussion of colorism within the Black Community.
I wonder if this is going to be the response of BM as more BW date outside of the race. I hope the thugs and prosecuted to the fullest.
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/family_speaks_out_on_severe_beating_090820
Jamdown,
As has been demonstrated in this post, MOST DBR, ANTI-BW HATER BM WILL CONTINUE to BLAME SHIFT, MAKE EXCUSES, "CHANGE THE SUBJECT", and DENY THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES when it comes to the DEFENSE/PROTECTION of BW's HUMANITY,DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.
I was not aware that Brazilians had such a major beef with black Americans, particularly black American women.
http://www.brazzilbrief.com/
http://www.brazzilbrief.com/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=40af008d86952c1385e2fa9eaf1ef626
Apparently brazilian men feel the need to insult black american women.
WTF is their problem?
"I was not aware that Brazilians had such a major beef with black Americans, particularly black American women.
http://www.brazzilbrief.com/"
It's Brazil, what'd you expect?
I think they were going hard at black Americans in general, not just black women.
After reading that board for a while, I wish I had my life back I wasted.
Buncha ignorant people but their views are in line with what I have read about Brazil. If I went there, it might be totally different, but there it is.
@uglyblackjohn
"A feminine looking dark-skinned lady (Iman, AJ Johnson, Rashumba,...) can have her choice of guys.
Same with masculine (The Rock, Vin Deisel, ...) guys. El Debarge look-a-likes are the ones viewed as lacking game."
But as the term "unfeminine" being used for Caster Semenya, Michelle Obama and Williams sisters and the label "feminine" for men such as El Debarge (discounting the long hair) show,many people equate broader more "African" features with masculinity and narrower more "European" features with femininity.
There have been studies that show that it isn't just color, that many people find african features combined with light skin to be uglier than the other three combinations.Light skin, Euro features= almost white ie "almost normal". Dark skin, Euro features= exotic. Dark skin, African features= "normal". Light skin, African features = WRONG.
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