::UPDATE: There is a response, and unfortunately, it was the one I was expecting. Now this child is saying I deleted his comment and that he replied back. I am now going through over 1,000 emails in Gmail, literally to find this missing post to see if indeed he replied back to me, if he did, I will be more than happy to post it and reply in a separate post continuing this conversation. I didn't find it, if he posts it, I will, I will be waiting, but I never got such a reply outside of what is posted in this blog entry. No lie. ::
Someone made some comments over in another post, and I felt those comments deserved it's own blog post.
His comments are ones I am all too familiar with. I heard the questions and comments he posed all the time growing up, and as many times as I explained it, it often fell on deaf ears, because people only want to believe what they want to. Facts are silly and not relevant in all decisions or perceptions most of the time. I feel I should respond to these questions and comments here, so that when it does get repeated, which it will, I can refer said person who says these comments here.
This first comment:
yeah, it seems like hypersensitivity to political correctness(among other things) has led to a backlash regarding people being able to talk about race. jokingly, seriously, sarcastically, philosophically, etc... someone always gets offended, but nobody wants to explore WHY they are offended, or what it means to be racist nowadays. is it discriminating against someone for a job? is it using racial slurs? is it playing on stereotypes for your comedy routine?
as a jew, i don't think you're anti-semitic, but i do think you (and many other minorities, especially in the black community) have a strong aversion to white liberal suburbanites (and other perceived "majorities") coopting racial stereotypes, or engaging in any kind of discussion about black, white, or whatever, in a manner equal to yourselves.
this is kind of sad, because even as we're making such progress in post-obama america, suddenly someone's being excluded from the table; which is ironic, and might seem "fair" in the historical sense, but hardly endears your cause to the world. racism begets reverse-racism (which is just racism) and then all we have is a vicious cycle of hate, never-ending.
to answer your question about, "what is being anti-semitic?" i would expand that further to all peoples and say, "what is it to be prejudiced? what is it to discriminate?
what is it to be a racist?
what is it to hate?"
The whole "climate of political correctness has messed things up or made things suck" excuse has run it's course. It is a cop out, and it is an excuse people use to dismiss and ignore the realities of the world. I'm sorry you can't openly display your racism, but now instead have to be more discreet about it. I'm sorry. I apologize, and with the current climate of racism in this country, it seems not too long from now, you will be free to say whatever, because honestly I'm waiting for Jim Crow to come back full force with all the current "veiled" racism going on.
I find it funny how many people who get mad and accuse the "offended" of made up racism, why they can't understand or try to understand why someone may be offended. We can pretend all we want the history of America was absolute love and racial harmony and that slavery and Jim Crow did not exist and had no bearing on race relations in America, but fact is, it happened, and racism isn't always about slavery and Jim Crow. We need to really get over that notion. We had generations upon generations, up to my parents generation of whites who were taught and believed that blacks are inherently inferior to them. Slavery and Jim Crow ended, but that mentality did not, no matter which way you slice it, that perception is still going around, and I see it displayed quite often. That leads to the subtle racism I discuss. I say this often, but racism goes beyond cross burning and dragging men behind trucks.
In terms of whites co-opting black stereotypes, I can only say this, this sounds mean, but whites have a habit of taking or co-opting things without acknowledging where those things come from. Ask the Native Americans, ask the Japanese in internment camps, and you can ask black people. I remember for years being teased by white people for using Crisco in my hair and skin, for having a big nose, for having big lips, and for having a big old "fat ass". I remember hearing that rap music was complete crap, ignorant, just plain stupid, and you didn't have to have talent to actually rap. I remember when wearing saggy pants meant you were in a gang. I remember New Edition making waves, but I remember New Kids on the Block becoming phenomenons. I remember the kids thinking LL Cool J was ok, but Vanilla Ice being where it is at. I remember when Justin Timberlake was singing Disney songs, but now he is supposed to be the greatest entertainer out there. I know that Eminem is now considered the best MC of our time. Angelina Jolie is sexy and known for her big lips, Jessica Beil is sexy for her voluptuous ass. White women are going out getting botox in their lips and ass implants. So they can get my "greasy chicken lips" and "fat ass" Please refer to Coco as a prime example of this. On black people, things are bad or ok, on white people these same things shine and are wonderful.
In terms of the discussion about race, white people don't want a discussion, they want to vent, blacks want the same, but it doesn't matter because white people will ignore their place or responsibility, and make the assumption about what blacks think. Whites don't want a discussion on race, because in reality, that discussion would hurt your feelings.
Whites chose to be excluded from the topic of race, they didn't want race relations to change or improve for the most part, black people did, and that is what many whites fail to acknowledge. Whites were for the most part just fine with slavery, and just fine with Jim Crow, both benefitted them, even the poorest of whites had an advantage during these times. That mentality has carried over and we see it today, that is why racism still exists to this day. When white people do include themselves in the debate and actually "get it", they are viewed as race traitors and dismissed by fellow whites. Jane Elliot and Tim Wise are perfect examples of this.
In post-racial America, whites have made it loud and clear what they think about a black President, over and over and over again. They don't call him a n*gger or drag him behind a truck, they just pull their kids out of school because they don't want their children indoctrinated, they were fine with Reagan and Bush Sr. indoctrinating the young, but a black man not so much. I didn't get converted into believing Reagan was the greatest President of our time, I sure as hell didn't get that Bush Sr. and me are buddies and on the same page. What I do get is that if your children are to become socialists or Nazis because a non socialist/non nazi President makes a speech about the importance of education and to stay in school, they don't need to be in school because they are dumb, and you and your schools have failed your kids. That sounds mean, but it's true. My mother, who is an educator feels if Obama can capture the audience of kids while making a boring speech, he is a miracle worker, kids don't have long attention spans when it comes to grown folks talking about serious stuff, that is just fact, they tune out, day dream, and pass notes to each other.
The second comment to address:
@siditty: i agree with you that racism can be subtle, but in those cases, it becomes a personal definition. overt acts like hate-speech, racial slurs, etc are something most people can agree on as being racist. but how can you tell if someone giving a job to a white person - or a black person - instead of another equally qualified ethnic/racial group is racist? it might be... but it might also be completely unrelated to it. subverting black culture and selling it back to consumer might be minstrelsy, or might just be about making money. ultimately, you're talking about your OPINION on what you THINK is racist.
i think saying that white people don't see the double standard is untrue. we do, and we point it out in things such as affirmative action, linguistic privilege over who can say "nigger", and even small things like black power versus white power signs.
white people see a new double standard emerging that is biased against their participating in the evolution, the conversation of race and racism in america.
don't let your personal experiences dare i say... color? your perception of the fact that we are ALL people. don't condescend that we can't understand you because we are not black, or let me assume that you can't understand being white or jewish because you aren't, but believe that we can all understand each other because we are all human. isn't that the point of everything we are discussing? to move beyond such stupid distinctions as skin-color? if you take the cop-out that i've heard so many times before (even on this blog) that we can't understand one another, then fundamentally you're giving up on race-relations. you're assuming we will always be strangers, instead of countrymen. and that is sad.
because your cause IS my cause. hate is infectious, and spreads like wildfire. to enslave one people or commit genocide against one people affects us all. you think the situation of "black america" has fallen on deaf ears yet things change, things have changed, and things are STILL changing. every people on earth has at some point in their history been treated unjustly by another. but to me, it is YOU are in danger of not-listening, because you're too busy telling me that i can never understand... when in fact we know all too well.
@all: i see a lot of the comments on this post saying anything slightly derogatory against jews gets you slandered with labels of anti-semitic. but i ask you, when i have made MY contrary opinions about "black america" have you not called me racist? haven't you thrown labels and slurs and other epithets at me? many in the black community are quick to make the same hypersensitive slanders at people who outside the community who call them out for their wrongs and hypocrisies. yet now you play the victim for being called anti-semitic so quickly? welcome to what it feels like when i try to talk about race.
S says that jews can make fun of ANYONE and get away with it (citing sarah silverman as an example) but do you think black comics or, for that matter, any color comics do anything differently? comedy holds all peoples equally ridiculous, from george carlin to margaret cho to whoopi goldberg to dave chappelle. nobody is above being laughed at.
i'm not saying jews aren't racist, or bigoted. we have words in hebrew that are clearly derogatory, and have in many instances sacrificed our dignity to "blend in" (much the same as light-skinned in the black community). we are not above hate, but from your actions and words... apparently neither are you.
and that is what i take issue with, that the victim becomes the victimizer, that people engage in the old biblical tenet of "eye for an eye" so let's all be blind. instead of becoming a survivor and changing things for the better, you turn around and do what's been done to you, knowing how horrible it is. you become the hate you seek to eliminate.
so it goes.
Racism is NOT AN OPINION, it is not made up in people's heads. When you go to an office and see the only black people working there are in "lower" positions. You see it when you managed to get hired and your co-workers with less experience and education make more than you. You see it when your HR department does an audit on salaries and education and note that the few minorities and women who work in the same jobs as their white counterparts have significantly more education and experience, but make less money (happened at my father's job). You see in the salary/wage gap between blacks and whites with similar education and experience. Unless you think automatically whites are smarter,deserve more money, are more intelligent, and worker harder and better than their black counterparts as a whole, which in itself is racist.
Racism isn't an opinion. It happens, and the sooner people quit thinking people make it all up in their heads each and every time, the better, if you can't acknowledge racism in all forms, you are part of the problem as to why racism will never go away in this country, it isn't about political correctness, it is about realizing that although someone is different than you physically, they still have humanity just like you.
Seeing a double standard in Affirmative Action, the "privilege" to say "nigger", and "black power" vs "white power" is telling to me. That isn't a double standard, that is whites bitching and moaning that you no longer have the complete upper hand and complete superiority over another group of people anymore, because those people now have SOME protections.
Why are you pissed off you can't say "nigger"? Why do you want to say it? Why would that be a great improvement in race relations for whites to call blacks "nigger" again in open society? In Jim Crow it was accepted, do you think race relations were great back then?
Why are you or countless millions of other whites not outraged at the concept of legacies in colleges and jobs based on who someone's parents were or who their parents knew? Why are white people not pissed off at the concept of affirmative action when it benefitted them? Why are you not pissed off that your white women benefit from the same that minorities do? Why are you not pissed off when Asians benefit from the same policies.
When you can answer these questions truly and honestly, then you will understand what I mean by double standards whites in GENERAL fail to acknowledge.
Black power doesn't have a history of lynching, murder, rape, and burning of black people and their property. There has never been a Rosewood or 1912 Tulsa riot occur with white people. There has not been the mass appeal to eradicate whites. The black power movement talks about blacks moving to their own utopia, the white power movement believes everyone else should move. Again a double standard not acknowledged by white people.
No there was never a double standard there, they just don't want a discussion on race unless it benefits them. That is the honest truth. They were offered many times a chance to participate, some did, but many chose not to, and they like you want to pretend racism is all in the minds of people, and an opinion rather than an actual reality. That is a luxury white privilege affords you.Racism is a reality in my life, and it isn't something I made up in my head, and just because you fail to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less valid.
We are all people, but not all people in this country are treated equal and that is a fact you can't deny.
I would love to think that all white people think of me as human, but in reality, many don't think that way. If they do, they think of me as less than them, and all while they think I am less than them, they have the audacity to believe that they are non racist because they now HAVE TO tolerate me a lot more than what they used to. It is painful to admit, but I know it is true for many people who are white. I see it all the time.
I never said blacks and whites can't understand each other, we don't want to, that is the cold hard truth. I haven't given up on race relations at all, I have given up on a realistic discussion where people don't automatically assume racism is an opinion, something made up, and not a reality simply because slavery and Jim Crow went away. I would like to believe we all have a shared cause, but we don't. We have a cause, whites have a cause, they want to live like "they used to", blacks never want to go back to "the good old days".
Change didn't occur because it just happened over time, It changed because blacks fought for it to change. People were beaten, lynched, burned, and tortured for this change, this change didn't come peacefully. It was demanded, and even with that change, white people are upset because they see the right for blacks to be treated as equal means taking away their privilege or rights. To dismiss the change as something that "just happened" means people really don't understand race relations and don't really care to.
Every people on this earth don't have the recent history that blacks in America do to refer back to when they talk about the injustice, nor do all people relate or understand the injustices that happen to black people now. I mean I can talk about what went on during the times of the ancient Roman empires, but I can't relate, I can relate to being called a "nigger", I can relate to people assuming I want to steal from them, or that I'm poor and on welfare, that I'm less intelligent, less hard working, and less qualified all because of the color of my skin. Can you relate to that first hand on a consistent, regular basis?
You're right, I do quit listening, because it is the same song different day. I expect nothing less from people. You aren't talking to someone unaware or out of touch with those different than me, I live amongst white people, some of them great friends, but I know and expect them to say something crazy, and I have learned I can't educate people, and people only want to believe what they have always believed, and denial is the response I usually get when I talk about race with people who don't look like me, not always, but it is the majority of the time. I no longer have patience like I should, I openly admit that.
People tend to forget, white people have managed to escape and move away from black people, but even in the most blackest of neighborhoods, white people exist, and they are usually there in roles of power. They are policemen, teachers, and political figures. Whites can escape blacks, blacks cannot escape whites.
I know this post is harsh, I know it sounds mean, but I am not going to sugarcoat this topic anymore. It is racist, I never said I wasn't racist, I just know to admit it. I don't think many white people can or are willing to admit this, because it will shatter their perception that racism is all made up in the heads of sensitive, over politically correct people.
29 comments:
Siditty, this post right here is EXACTLY why I read your blog.
It would be so easy to dismiss both those comments as people who can't take the time to stop and think about it a little bit longer. You, however, took the time to break it down and you did it very well.
There's nothing for me to add, of substance, really. I do want to reiterate what you said about racism not being an opinion.
I wonder most why it's so hard to accept that racism still exists and it exists mostly in veiled and quiet ways. Ways that make it easy for a non-minority to look and say "you're overreacting" which only perpetuates the problem. I think on a lot of levels, black people just want white folks to stop telling us we overreact, that there's not as much racism as there used to be and that they too experience discrimination. That belittles everything when a person says/suggests that.
Great post...
well Sid, you are a better person than I, when people make these sort of comments I may respond once but they have already been dismissed in my mind, it just seems to be a waste of time and energy to even talk to them.
Strangely enough white male privilege is not nearly as annoying to me as white female privilege, maybe because the female variety involves playing the victim while being entitled and standing on someone's neck.
It is my humblest of opinions that the best solution would be for Blacks to resegregate. Frankly, I don't believe Whites and Blacks will ever get along. Blacks exist at the bottom of the global hierarchy. Blacks have been used by others to elevate their own position on the racial totem pole (the Irish; the Native Americans; the Jews; the East Asians; even Ghandi, as the leader of his people, used belittling and dehumanizing Blacks to raise the stature of his people in the eyes of the Indians' White oppressors).
It's simple racial economics. It benefits other groups that Blacks remain at the bottom.
Aside from that, Blacks have a lot of issues that can only be addressed from inside. The low I.Q.s, the rampant crime, the interior strife, the embarrassing behaviour and culture that gives other races carte blanche to relegate all Blacks to subhuman status.
I believe that if Blacks segregated themselves, closed their society to outsiders, and implemented an intense programme of eugenics and cultural replenishment (a la the Jews, and referencing the Harlem Renaissance), they could emerge from the cesspool in which they've festered so long.
I'm really rather over placing blame and talking about 'why'. The reality is that Blacks are in a sad and sorry state, and the interference of others (well-meaning or not) is making the situation worse.
Of course, getting to that point of solution would require an extreme mental shift, of which I'm not convinced the majority of Blacks are capable, nevermind willing.
(NOTE--- I am a Black woman with a White male partner. I realize many people will scratch their heads over that, but in those famous words: "I am large, I contain multitudes". I'm willing to entertain any questions/comments on this idea. It's actually not as Final Solutionist as it sounds!)
Siditty,
Watching the video clips served to confirm that racism is a belief that one's race is superior. Facts do not negate belief in the mind of a racist.
I've never met a Black racist. I've met Black people who hate others but I've never met a Black person who believes that Blacks are superior to Whites. Black people don't require superiority to Whites as the method to fullfillment, we only desire equality. That desire cannot be fathomed by so many Whites because it means no one has an advantage.
I got a sense of the heartfelt words shared by a woman "Who gives a damn", when others would say, "I don't care".
I applaud your patience and willingness to go the extra mile.
U
Good post. You're bigger person than me. I would've just banned the silly fucker from my comments.
Ronia...
Your post really made me take pause.
As soon as I read your first few paragraphs, I scrolled down and thought "I don't have time to read the nonsense of yet another ignorant individual..." and then I saw your note at the bottom... unwilling to believe that you'd actually be a black woman, I re-read your entire post hoping to find some explanation. Instead, I left that feeling a bit... well... hurt.
And not in that "oh you offended me" way, but in that "wow... if we have black people, obviously well-read, smart, black people who think that black people as a whole have low IQs, are responsible for rampant crime, and generally have nothing to add to society then we have a lot more to do" way.
Perhaps it would behoove black folks to segregate (there'd be nothing "re", as in "again" about it) but it's certainly not because we're comprised of a bunch of crime-infested idiots who'd eat their own young if they thought it looked good.
Personally, I disagree entirely with your sentiment but above all the disagreement I feel, I'm a bit hurt.
But you don't know me and I don't really know you so how I feel, as far as you're concerned, are just words on a screen, and I get that; don't take it personally.
I would like to know when you came up with this idea and what you know or have seen that makes you think this is the answer.
In areas where black folks are segregated (or as segregated as you can be in a desegregated, not to be confused with integrated, society) like urban cities with high populations of black people, (e.g. Memphis, TN; Washington, DC; Detroit, MI) that segregation isn't pulling those black folks out of their problems.
If you look at all black schools you find they do more poorly on tests than their white counterparts, not, as you might assert, because they have lower IQs but because they don't have access to the same stuff. If you, however, take a gander at more mixed neighborhoods and schools you find black students excel...
Everything in our society points away from what you're suggesting, so what do you know that I obviously don't?
A. Smith---
I felt hurt, too, the first time I decided to stop living in the warm embrace of "I'm o.k., you're o.k." diversicrat liberalism and actually look at the world. It's a hateful, angry place, and Blacks are the target of a large slice of that bigotry and rage.
Allow me, however, to clarify an issue. I do not think that Blacks have nothing of value to contribute to society. I believe that society is resistant to valuing anything contributed by Blacks. From intellectual discourse to entertainment, if it can be identified with Blacks, it's going to be denigrated and belittled. A particularly apt and heinous example is the manner in which the global culture handled the issue of Great Zimbabwe. When they could no longer insist that the civilization was other than Black, the litany changed to, "Well, it ceased to exist. The Blacks destroyed it like they destroy everything else."
It's this resistance to elevating Blacks to full human status that, I believe, has layered on many of the problems Blacks face. From colourism to "good hair vs. bad hair", to crime and illiteracy, to the yawning chasm between "good Blacks" and "bad Blacks"--- all can be traced, in large part, to the vitriol of a world that stands united in the relief that, whatever else, at least they aren't Negroid.
Now for the issue of IQ---
We could argue from here through eternity whether the issue is environmental or biological. There is ample support for either conclusion. My studies of the debate have led me to conclude that BOTH are factors. I believe that the average Black IQ can be improved, in part, through selective breeding, but the most imperative shift must be that from a culture of excess to a culture of success.
Crime, HIV/AIDS, economic free-fall, war torn Africa, etc.--- we could go on all day about which "side" deserves blame. But my point is: the deplorable state of affairs will continue unless Blacks become superbly proactive. Because, again, the only ones who benefit from the elevation of Blacks are Blacks themselves. No one is interested in helping Blacks--- indeed, a good many are actively more concerned about hindering any Black cultural or economic upward mobility.
In addition, Blacks are in desperate need of a strengthened sense of self and self-worth. Frankly, it isn't going to happen in the global society. I believe that in a segregated society, Blacks will be able to develop and nurture their own concepts of beauty, art, intellectualism, and so forth, without it being constantly berated, dissected, belittled, or patronized by others.
Many Blacks live in an almost perpetual state of defensiveness. I'm merely suggesting making that wall of concrete--- building a fence, erecting a gate, and solving the problems of the race behind closed doors, without the interference of a world that is predisposed to do more harm than good.
As for your examples of racially segregated enclaves--- having lived in Memphis, I must say this, bluntly and without apology: the majority of Black Memphians are stupid. They are mentally stunted. Whether it's inherent to their genetics or whether they are merely the products of too many generations of poverty, oppression, and zero opportunity, is an argument for those who would rather debate than decide. In the meantime, it is the fools and the ne'er-do-wells who are out-breeding the rest (an unfortunate reality present across racial lines, but which I find particularly alarming in the case of Blacks).
A more relevant example to the perils of segregation would be that of the Native Americans and their reservations, though the two aren't quite as analogous as a superficial study might lead one to believe.
And this isn't to say that ALL Blacks are intellectually stunted. That is not the case in the least. There are many intelligent, creative, driven, visionary Blacks, individuals of mammoth talent and awe-inspiring achievement. And they are by no means outliers, or curious anomalies within the data. However, they aren't the ones getting the press. And even when they do, there's a hoard of hateful persons lining up to take potshots at their accomplishments.
I've grown weary of analyzing how we've come so late to this dark place. I just want to see Blacks get out of it, and my theory isn't without precedent. Indeed, Black America made two attempts at just such a segregation (the Harlem Renaissance and what is colloquially dubbed the "Black is Beautiful" movement). Similar revolutions occurred in Paris, and various spots on the map. However, these movements were largely of the mind, and Blacks, I think, require an actual physical withdrawal to reap the greatest rewards.
Again, it's unorthodox and, quite obviously, an unpalatable view for most. I'm not advocating a Nation of Islam approach (they are racist wackos, end of story), but the fight for equity and dignity isn't one Blacks can win. There are simply too many opponents, and it's difficult to mount a defense when so much of the rank is in shambles. A better solution, in my view, is to build a society in which Blacks need neither suffer condemnation nor curry favour on the basis of skin colour.
I'm not divesting any one of blame, and neither am I insisting that others shoulder the entire burden. What I suggest will likely never come to pass, but I hold it as the quickest and most efficient solution to a multidue of problems. It's time Blacks took the reins of their own problems, whatever their cause.
Excellent post!
this is all bothersome for me, because on one hand what he said created steel knots in my stomach. i worried that he might be an example of my fellow college mates. it depressed me and I was terribly disappointed in him because this is not the first time he's said something like this. I thought he'd opened his mind by now. But he came back bitter and more entrenched in his diatribe. It was really sad and I'm glad you set him straight. On the other hand I can see him saying to himself "this is why whites do not engage in conversations about race, because we get attacked."
i always roll my eyes at that statement because it seems people like him can NEVER be challenged. Their idea of a conversation is them telling you how to be, to make him more comfortable. This whole thing about "Post Obama America" isn't about whites getting to say whatever they want without facing as much scrutiny as they have been giving blacks when they address problems they encounter. They think their reality,and the way they react to and face the world will work for you. He does not seem to understand that.It's not even as if what he is saying has some soft spots or demonstrates any form of understanding. he basically says, "this is how I live. This is how I face the world. It works for me, it will work for you. If you don't do as I do, you're the cause of the problem." I still blame it on his youth and the limited amount of experiences he has. (having a rainbow of friends does not count) When we're young, we tend to think our reality is the world and we become stubborn about seeing the reality of others, whether we feel their reality undermines ours or not.
I wonder, is he and others who think like him ALWAYS going to think that way? Or will things change?
Ronia,
I have no choice to but to honestly believe you are not a black woman, and I will leave it at that. Your appearance on this blog coincides with some emails I have received that support this theory, but without merit. If you are a black women who is indeed with a white man, you suggest divorcing him to live amongst your own? That makes no sense. You also avoided the question I posed to you when you came up with the idea for re-segregating the races.
Then you indicate that black people are less intelligent due to breeding, that is straight from the KKK handbook. No black person with a lick of common sense believes that.
It never ceases to amaze me how dumb, unthinking white folk (like Ronia) love to tell us how 'superior' their intellectual prowess is, when they fail time and time again to grasp racism 101.
To Orchid: I don't get that impression of Zek at all. I think he means well, but the fact that it is often difficult to relate to the experiences of others because you have not lived them. At some point, when a Black person tries to explain this, they are often labeled as having a "victim" mentality. I'm not talking about him thinking this is the case, but I'm referring to other White people who I have actually overheard saying"Why don't Blacks stop feeling sorry for themselves by blaming the past for why race relations are the way they are and just "get over it"? I would never expect a Jew to "get over" the Holocaust because that would be insensitive. As for Zek, I think that he's trying to have honest dialogue about this topic, but in the process has unintentionally rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
I agree with FunkyStarKitty550, I think as black people we automatically want to pin a person as racist if they say something that rubs us the wrong way.
I frequent Zek's blog, and i've had plenty of intelligent conversations with him and I don't believe he's racist.
I think he's blunt, and I don't think there's anyway to sugarcoat the things that he's trying to say.
But racist? I don't think so.
@Siditty- I love your blog, and I applaud you for tackling these tough issues.
@Ronia- Really? That's all i'm going to say to you. Really? Having a white partner is not an excuse for you to be a bigot.
Whew. Ditto what Frizz said--"I applaud you for tackling these tough issues."
It is not my belief that he is racist. I just think there is a wall. i don't want to pin anyoen with the label "racist". I just have a problem with people viewing those who want to discuss legitimate racial issues as "victims" and wanting to silence them. There is an obvious mental block, and I want to know how that can be overcome.I want to know how dialogue can occur with people like him, if that's possible, without alienating him or silencing POC because they are being made to feel their experiences are irrelevant and that they are making a big deal out of nothing.
Firstly, if one race is out-performing all other races time and time again then it says something about that race doesn’t it? If in your family tree you had a bunch of people who had invented some of the most amazing inventions ever, I am sure you would be claiming that, which is only fair. You have superior genetics. This is the same for race. Whites are more intelligent than blacks and it is proven time and time again. Black people just love to blame all their downfalls on whitey. Give white people a desert and they will turn it into a paradise, give black people a paradise and they will turn it into a desert.
Siddity--- I didn't see your question about resegregation; I still don't. After my initial post here, I see underOVR, Boom, and then A.Smith. Please ask your question again, I will answer it.
And I have NEVER sent you an email, that I guarantee. Indeed, because it sincerely bothers me to have my race questioned, I'd be willing to communicate via email to prove my identity. I don't know if you'd be willing to do that, but again, it really does bother me when people discount that I could actually be Black.
And no, I don't propose leaving my partner. I don't actually propose any interracial couples dissolve. I admit freely that there's quite a bit of cognitive dissonance inherent here.
And I did NOT say that Blacks are less intelligent due to breeding. What I said is that there is evidence to suggest that Black underachievement has roots in both IQ and environment, and that improving the genetic pool in correlation with improving the environment/community/culture could very quickly lead to gains. The kind of gains, I assume, that we all want to see.
Yes, I am a proponent of eugenics. Not just for Blacks, but for the entire human population. It is an enormously unpopular and widely misunderstood topic, but I won't apologize for my stance. I do believe that the world, as a whole, could find solutions to many of the problems tearing us apart if we were simply more careful about how we beget the next generation. Not ALL of the problems, mind you, and I am by no means stating that humanity will ever learn to embrace peace, love, happiness, and inclusion, but I do believe it is the duty of each of us, as individuals, to be careful about procreation.
Siddity--- I didn't see your question about resegregation; I still don't. After my initial post here, I see underOVR, Boom, and then A.Smith. Please ask your question again, I will answer it.
And I have NEVER sent you an email, that I guarantee. Indeed, because it sincerely bothers me to have my race questioned, I'd be willing to communicate via email to prove my identity. I don't know if you'd be willing to do that, but again, it really does bother me when people discount that I could actually be Black.
And no, I don't propose leaving my partner. I don't actually propose any interracial couples dissolve. I admit freely that there's quite a bit of cognitive dissonance inherent here.
And I did NOT say that Blacks are less intelligent due to breeding. What I said is that there is evidence to suggest that Black underachievement has roots in both IQ and environment, and that improving the genetic pool in correlation with improving the environment/community/culture could very quickly lead to gains. The kind of gains, I assume, that we all want to see.
Yes, I am a proponent of eugenics. Not just for Blacks, but for the entire human population. It is an enormously unpopular and widely misunderstood topic, but I won't apologize for my stance. I do believe that the world, as a whole, could find solutions to many of the problems tearing us apart if we were simply more careful about how we beget the next generation. Not ALL of the problems, mind you, and I am by no means stating that humanity will ever learn to embrace peace, love, happiness, and inclusion, but I do believe it is the duty of each of us, as individuals, to be careful about procreation.
Anonymous---
I never said my intellect was superior. I never so much as inferred it. And I understand racism. I also understand that racism alone cannot bear the brunt of blame, and that, in the end, gnashing teeth over it doesn't do anything to actually SOLVE the problems.
Frizz---
In what way, exactly, am I bigot? I am neither hateful nor intolerant, and I my theory of cultural segregation is no more than a theory. And I'd gladly put it aside if someone else could provide me a better proposal.
In addition---
I am Black, although I was expecting this reaction. It's usually the one I receive on the Internet. People have difficulty with tackling such issues, and they become defensive and angry and don't really bother to read what was actually written. Generally, they cling to the IQ issue and won't let go of it, even though IQ, largely speaking, doesn't mean squat, and isn't really the point here.
However, it is important to the rest of the world as a symbol of how Blacks are less than human. I don't think there's much to be won by ignoring the data on IQ. Indeed, if society wasn't so uncomfortable with the idea that IQ differences exist, perhaps more study could be done that would lead, for instance, to working solutions in education. We, as a society, could probably even prove, once and for all, that IQ doesn't matter (because widely speaking, it doesn't. It isn't a true measure of one's ability to succeed).
More importantly, it could silence the racists who keep throwing the IQ data around like it's the Holy Grail, and proof they have the right to their hatred. And it's their "scientists" and their "moralist" who are using this data to continue spreading their rhetoric.
The issue over Michelle Obama's SAT scores is a prime example. Nobody cares what her scores actually were--- the point they were making is that no Black person, anywhere, could have possibly succeeded without Affirmative Action and handouts from Whites. It's a cycle that repeats in many American universities. And one of the reasons is that the continued resistance to addressing debates such as those over IQ leave "potential" racists without a sound voice to counter the vitriol. That is how the racists get converts.
Doesn't that bother ANY of you? Doesn't it bother ANY of you that this is simply not being addressed? And that the reason it's not being addressed is, generally, because the vast majority of the world BELIEVES it, but has simply become too polite to say so?
When well-meaning and otherwise kind-hearted people ignore Black behaviour and waive away the statistics on achievement with the excuse that "Blacks have been so ill-treated. Is it any wonder they are less capable?", doesn't that type of patronization upset you?
Perhaps it's just me, but it ticks me off no end when I read about some little Black boy having difficulty reading, and no one is bothering to help him because they assume he just CAN'T, either because of IQ or environment. That type of discouragement is the worst form of racism on earth. Yes, I do believe that there are idiots in the Black populace--- just like there are idiots in the larger human populace--- but I believe that a far larger majority are quick, capable, and industrious, and those traits would emerge without the continued meddling of racists, and liberal do-gooders who mistake their pity for compassion.
We could sit here and talk about IQ all day long, but wouldn't it be more productive to address other issues? Such as crime, the AIDS/HIV crisis, the culture of underachievement that handicaps too many Black children almost before they've even begun?
My point here is that the problems that plague the Black community, however those problems came to exist, aren't being fixed because Blacks have too much exterior pressure keeping them from rectifying so many issues. The world, as a whole, doesn't want to see Blacks succeed and upset the racial hierarchy. That isn't any different from what Siddity has been saying throughout her blog.
I simply believe that Blacks could very quickly heal all that has shattered if they close ranks. If they made a conscious effort to form a society in which they can nurture their own, because it's painfully obvious that it isn't going to happen in the larger world. I am not saying "throw off your false White brethren and march into the night". What I'm saying is that we need to realize that the only ones who can heal us are us, and that if we truly want to build a stronger, healthier, happier race, it's time we stop coasting on the usual excuses and instead start looking some hard truths in the eye.
So tell me--- where do you have a problem with it? Don't just lob "racist" and "bigot" and other names, actually tell me at what makes you uncomfortable. Is it the notion of segregation? Do you feel that this would qualify as surrender? Do you think the state of Blacks isn't so terrible as to warrant extreme action? Do you feel the predication here is entirely off-base? Do you believe that there are other solutions, and if so, what?
If you really believe I'm wrong, make an effort to enlighten me.
I'm with Siditty in that I doubt Ronia is a bw...perhaps a parody? I could be wrong but there is a reason why I'm suspicious.
I won't even touch her assertion because my "solution" would be deemed more extreme than hers, LOL.
Siditty,
Great post! Eloquently said!
I was talking to my husband the other day and it nearly put me to tears when he asked, "What's a cracker?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think its one of the BF's answer to the n word. Its not even the same as far as intensity, hurt, maliciousness, and venom.
Ronia,
I don't think a physical wall would be helpful. Perhaps conscious raising. A group doing heavy duty PSA for the education and uplift of BF could do wonders.
When u talk of eugenics, do u mean reducing the OOW births? Or simply sterilizing "lower incomed people"?
I think one hindrance to BF empowerment is our tendency to individuality. So much so that its very hard to get together to do something great. Especially if we use methods more conducive to people who have a tendency towards clumping or unity (i.e. white folks). If we invented or used methods more attune to our faults and strong points, then we stand a better chance.
Recycling ideas that would "uplift" the black race (i.e. PSA's, government handouts and subsidies, church, etc) is futile. It's been done - over and again - for decades. You can't help people who don't want to be helped. They have to DESIRE a better lifestyle.
I find it hard to believe that the same people who "don't have access" to computers and books, somehow have access to BET and various components of hip-hop culture. They don't know to want education, but they know to want the latest basketball shoe? Luxury vehicle? There's a serious disconnect and someone's holding out on me.
It hurts me to say this, truly, but I really feel that there's no hope. A few will be able to succeed, but there will be no sweeping change. No wave of black "uplifting". They just don't want it badly enough. I use the term "they", because I don't feel connected to "my people" anymore. I've been ridiculed by both inner city and bourgeoisie blacks for the way I speak, my personal interests, and my preference in dating (and eventually marrying) a white man. As far as I'm concerned, neither group can ever be satisfied, because blacks can never be satisfied.
This isn't a game of "You Don't Know Jack...About Oppression", because we all get it. I get it from both sides, especially living in the Southeastern US. However, I don't use this as an excuse to wallow. I do know there are legitimate instances where the decks are stacked against a person, but this has less to do with race and more to do with basic human survival instinct. The fact of the matter is, some of us are able to succeed and some of us will simply exist. This is nature. Unfortunately, "our" community experiences the latter at a disproportionately higher rate.
What does this tells us? Well, in nature, when a species has proven itself too weak to evolve or survive, it dies off. I'm not making any suggestions or claiming to know the answers. I just thought I would share that little nugget.
He's been calling this blog a "shitstorm" for a while ("Keywords intolerance, political correctness, prejudicial ignorance, really stupid people|"). I was also amused by how he says he posted on one topic, but he really didn't care about it, so no one should've told him he was wrong because it was the internets and he doesn't care. That's why he keeps posting on the matter. If you truly believe that the blogger and the commentators are so much further below your powers of understanding, why clamor for intellectual hospitality among them? It would be more simple to stop the whinging.
Steve's behavior here made me think of some things I'd seen linked to the Angry Black Woman blog in a post called "Required Reading". I believe the entire list is worthwhile, both for posters and for those who feel bitterly misunderstood, when we engage in this kind of discourse. Of note:
How to Suppress Discussions of Racism
Many of his comments and his own blog postings fit the pattern outlined in the piece, so much so that it could be turned in to a drinking game. I didn't find everything he posted, but found enough for good measure.
a. Control what your audience sees---If you have linked to the opponent, all isn't lost. So many people never bother to click on links that you're reasonably safe as long as you don't quote your opponent's words in context.
In this case: only really linking to the posts that upset him and complaining that he'd been censored here back on his blog.
b. Attack the person, not the argument--Personal attacks end the discussion before it even starts! If you can accuse your opponent of "paranoia," "white guilt," "internalized racism," "whining," "overreacting," "paternalism," "condescension," "being obsessed with race," "bitching about racism at the drop of a hat," or "taking things too personally," you don't need to bother addressing the content of their remarks. This will save you time and energy you can then devote to happier pursuits.
"i question your COMPASSION AS A PERSON, not your intelligence. anyone can tell you're intelligent siditty. your literacy is proof enough of that. but being intelligent doesn't make you a good person."
"don't condescend that we can't understand you because we are not black, or let me assume that you can't understand being white or jewish because you aren't, but believe that we can all understand each other because we are all human"
c. Argue against straw men.-- The list of examples is largely to do with works of fiction/entertainment, but one example stood out: 7. "You think anyone who disagrees with you is a racist."
"@all: i see a lot of the comments on this post saying anything slightly derogatory against jews gets you slandered with labels of anti-semitic. but i ask you, when i have made MY contrary opinions about "black america" have you not called me racist?"
d. Deflect attention away from the specific criticism.--Remember, your goal is to avoid having to focus on what your opponent has actually said. We've compiled a list of helpful phrases that deflect attention away from specific discussion of racism. You can use them to respond to almost any discussion of racism, regardless of the content. We recommend you mix and match responses; arguing is more fun when there's some variety involved. Be careful not to use all the responses at once, or else your opponent may notice that you are contradicting yourself. 2. "I'm [a member of an oppressed group] and I'm not offended."
"hell, i make off-color jokes about jews all the time. why? because if you can't laugh at that sort of thing, you're just going to go through life angry and offended for a looong time."
e.Racism, however ugly, is better than the alternative. Sometimes, even when you do your best, your opponent is so persistent that you are forced to discuss racism. Don't worry: it's not your fault and soon it won't be your problem. In most of these cases, you can rely on a few handy responses that define racism in a way that benefits you, prove that racism is better than the measures that would have to be taken against it, or otherwise misdirect your opponent's attention. 2. "Focusing so much on race just shows that you're racist yourself." 3. "Minorities can be racist too, you know!" 7. "Maybe it's racist, but what about reverse racism?"
"kinda sad how ya'll who get so offended over racism and hate are the quickest ones to use it back."
"I think racial minorities (who actually aren't such a minority anymore) are hesitant to be as accepting of contrary, and often controversial opinions on race from a White man as they are from typical "minorities". Hell, they're less likely to accept any opinion on race from someone who looks like "The White Man".
"But even more pertinently, when can I see "Black power" written on the wall, and choose to be offended? Because after feeling a sense of subconsciously directed reversed-hatred, I want the freedom to question it, without being smeared by hypersensitive PC slurs as some ignorant backwater racial supremist."
"I am becoming the repressed by the repressed, a paradoxical oxymoronic reversal of the historical status-quo."
f. Prove your opponent has mistaken some other quality for racism. In the worst-case scenario, you may need to respond to specific points in your opponent's argument.
"i mean, they could easily be stereotypes for white, suburban, wannabe-gangsta boys as much as anything else.'hidden racism' seems to be just another way of saying you're looking for something that might not be there, and probably isn't'"
"don't like the militantism that's been taking over judaism lately. it comes out in ugly ways - like this. that said, i wouldn't take this too seriously."
"and often, i find that the people who use the [slurs] really aren't that bad. they're just plain folks - don't know any better. maybe the guy is a racist, or maybe he has a different sense of humor than you."
"I think that's just a douchebag cop, which exist in multitudes. Racism isn't always the case, because stupidity is so much more fundamental - 'tis Occam's Razor in spades."
"Is there anything inherently racist about White power? I don't really think so; it's just one group emphasizing their identity."
Ding, ding, ding. I think we have a winner.
This ought to be chased with How Not To Be Insane When Accused Of Racism (A Guide For White People). The two most pertinent points:
"2) Take the criticism seriously - do not dismiss it without thinking about it. Especially if the criticism comes from a person of color - people of color in our society tend by necessity to be more aware of racism than most Whites are, and pick up on things most Whites overlook. (On the other hand, don’t put the people of color in the room in the position of being your advocate or judge.)
3) Don’t make it about you. Usually the thing to do is apologize for what you said and move on. Especially if you’re in a meeting or something, resist your desire to turn the meeting into a seminar on How Against Racism You Are. The subject of the conversation is probably not “your many close Black friends, and your sincere longstanding and deep abhorrence of racism.”"
Doubt it's going to happen, though. He's off to the races about being bullied by stupid people who just don't understand how his way of thinking/feeling/whatever is how we should all do it.
PS: Pre-emptive apology to Casper and the ten minute rule. ^_^ This was just too...out there..to pass up.
Miriam---
Frankly, most PSAs--- whatever their purpose--- don't work. And PSAs don't help much in a world that is determined to prevent Blacks from achieving self-sufficiency and self-respect.
Again, some of the most prolific eras for American Blacks in terms of intellectualism and achievement occurred when separatism was at its highest, either by law or by social order.
Interesting note--- in a study (I want to say by Columbia) conducted for Black highschool-aged children from the same socioeconomic class (mid-upper), the study found that students in predominately Black highschools actually outperformed their peers in more racially-mixed institutions. This is notable because this was not a measure taken from two groups with disparate resources (the type of studies that tend to proliferate in racial stats).
(note: this study was extrapolated along with similar ones to conclude that, resources and goals being equal, any country's racial minority will perform better when with their own group; in other words, when they don't feel as though they are competing with preconceived and often negative notions from an oppressive group.)
And when I speak of eugenics, I speak generally of improving the overall genetic pool. Acceptable genetic stock can be found in all socioeconomic tiers. But yes, I do believe that decreasing--- or most preferably *preventing*--- breeding among the least desirable would benefit the race overall. And, on average, the least desirable tend to lurk in the lowest socioeconomic tiers.
Again, though, I don't advocate sterilizing every one *just because* they are poor. There have to be more parameters.
The first order of business, however, would be to shift the cultural norms (e.g., decreasing undesirable offspring rearing situations, such as OOW births).
Black African immigrants, for instance, are quite a bit more successful than the average Black American. What contributes to this disparity is work ethic, and a more developed sense of self and ethical comportment. I think Black Americans could achieve this with a closed society.
As to the issue of individuality---
I believe the prevalence of individuality (or what I like to refer to as "apartism") in the Black community has to do with not wanting to be associated with "those" Blacks. I think this is very common in the Black community, and it is that type of ideology that gave rise to colourism.
It isn't, I must stress, particular to the Black race. The desire not to be associated with individuals whom one feels encapsulate the negative/derided aspects of one's racial group is a universal theme. It's from whence the term "self-hating _________" emerged. The Jews had a pretty bad spate of it during the mid-19th and early-20th centuries, at times when their socioeconomic conditions were improving.
When one lives in a society in which "White" is the barometer by which all things are measured, most individuals will strive to get as close as possible to what will improve their life conditions. My thesis here is that Blacks will never win in that arena, and that a better choice would be to improve the race as a whole, and doing so without the interference of a group or social climate that reinforces the superior/inferior mindset.
Yes, it's a tall order.
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