Hopefully this thread is not dead yet.
As a white man who tends toward seeking Black women (not exclusively of course), I am wondering if there is hope in presenting a new appealing archetype to the general society. A branding (in the marketing sense) of the Black Female Talented Tenth. The reality of the BFTT pretty much already fits the archetype I am proposing, but the society at large hasn't caught on to this yet.
Let me explain. I have long known there is a valuable (but not valued) impressive set of successful, intelligent, romantically-loyal, moral, affectionate, psychologically tough, sexy, but lonely, black women. And they are tragically underserved in the marriage market. Over the past year, I have been pleased to learn that most of these women (essentially you gals here really) are at least open to considering non-black men.
Ladies, the problem clearly is not that you are not worthy, but you that you are undiscovered! Progress is already underway for firming up this archetype to be understood by the larger society. Currently, observant men are starting to to be aware of a proto-archetype {single | black
| lonely | professional | female}, and the other positive descriptors {successful | intelligent | loyal, moral, affectionate, tough-minded | sexy} are accreting apace.
This process must be encouraged! Anything that can be done in a coordinated way to foster the growth of this meme must be pursued. Remember, in its essence, the archetype is in fact in line with reality. Given that, it is mostly a matter of exposure, discovery by the society/media at large.
I have been up 26 hours, so I don't have the insight at the moment to present strategey and tactics in the service of this goal. I have to sleep. But I'll be back this evening to see what you all have thought up.
Wishing you all progress.
2009-10-12
Are Black Women Not Yet Discovered?
I found this comment interesting and would like to post it so that I can ensure everyone can read it. This was written by Aabaakawad:
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89 comments:
...........
Wow. Black women have been on American soil for 400 years and we haven't been "discovered"?? Give me a break....
Ladies, the problem clearly is not that you are not worthy, but you that you are undiscovered!
I'd add "unpresented" to that thought. Black women, from my pov, have not crossed over into the mainstream like other nonblack women have; all in the name of not wanting to sellout. Once we get rid of that mentality, our station will change.
This guy is spot on.
Wow. Black women have been on American soil for 400 years and we haven't been "discovered"?? Give me a break....
We are in a black/non-black dichotomy. So yes we have not been mainstreamed to the extent of certain other races of people. (i.e. asians).
I don't think it is a matter of selling out, but rather the fact that in America at least, we still are considered other.
Anonymous,
Your comment was deleted. By the way, most white women are fat, and white women are the biggest benefactors of welfare. It isn't all us black women using the government to take care of us, it's white ones.
I actually think he may be on to something. In a sense, the type of black woman he's talking about hasn't been discovered. The types of black women who have been discovered are loud, obnoxious, angry and "ghetto*" (read: the stereotype). There are probably more non-black men who would date black women if they were more regularly exposed to the type of black women that exists far more abundantly than our stereotype suggests.
*Before anyone from the "what does the word 'ghetto' mean?" club shows up, I use that word because it has a connotation everyone understands, whether they want to admit it or not.
I agree with A. Smith.
There is only one type of (well, maybe two) one is either the "ghetto" model or the "video vixen" model (and sometimes they both go hand in hand).
The type of woman that I am is not easily recognized and surely doesn't appear mainstream because I would be considered "uppity". Which is laughable because I'm just me and I'm open to all different kinds of things.
I just don't get it.
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I am all for Black women being recognized as viable partners.
However, I am hesitant about the whole "lonely" angle. I don't want a bunch of men thinking Black women are all desperate and would jump through hoops for any man who looks their way. That invites predators and users.
I want Black women to be put on the same level as other women, that's it.
This is once again another attempt for non black men to evade the "racist" label.
I grew up in Middle Class America. I went to private schools the majority of my life. Trust me. These White and other non Black men know Black women like this exist. These "undiscovered" Black women went to school, plays, football games, birthday parties, and other events with all of these clueless white men.
So basically he is saying that he was incapable of seeing a Black women in the night or any conversations he may of had with an individual Black women. He couldn't seperate her from the stupid ghetto stereotypes on TV??
Really, come off it.
When will people start being honest, and stop with the pity party victimization of Black women. Beautiful intelligent Black women have no issues. It is other people that have the issue. If a man of any race can see you as an individual.
He has the issue.
"I don't want a bunch of men thinking Black women are all desperate and would jump through hoops for any man who looks their way."
Exactly. The "Lonely"+"sexy"+"loyal" combination could easily attract some dregs... guys who want to "trade up" from what they can find within their own group (the dude who lives with his mother who'll only date a black woman if she's Halle) and guys that expect to be treated like kings as long as they live because "it's not like she has anywhere else to go."
And only Asian women have experienced most of the social benefits of mainstreaming, Siditty. Asian men... notsomuch.
The problem is that most men already have a viable pool of women from their own cultural/racial pool. There is no shortage of Hispanic women for Hispanic men, or white women for white men etc.
Aisha,
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I am all for Black women being recognized as viable partners.
However, I am hesitant about the whole "lonely" angle. I don't want a bunch of men thinking Black women are all desperate and would jump through hoops for any man who looks their way. That invites predators and users.
I want Black women to be put on the same level as other women, that's it.
laromana says,
I agree with your comments.
To anyone who CHOOSES NOT to accept ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES, they will QUICKLY "discover" that MOST BW are intelligent, dignified, hardworking, successful/striving to be successful, attractive, warm, caring, etc. (and NOTHING LIKE the ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES that are promoted in American culture).
EVERYONE needs to learn to put BW on the SAME LEVEL as OTHER NON-BW and treat us with EQUAL RESPECT. Treating BW like INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS is NOT too much to ask.
Aisha makes a good point re: the lonely label. The whole issue of predators did come to my mind as well.
A Smith also makes an excellent point about the type of bw who is in fact undescovered. When we hear about stats and bw, they are often negative. Since whites don't have to have as much social or even professional contact with blacks rather than vice versa, the stats are all one has to go by.
It is often said that white males are the biggest "funders" of the rap music industry. For many of them, the video girl is the only bw they see outside of work. Does anyone think they will remember the educated professional woman at work over the sexy video girl if they see her most of the time? No one takes the video girl home to mom. There are a few exceptions, but by and large, educated bw are undescovered.
Blacks and whites tend not to socialize with each other outside of the workplace...we still don't even attend the same churches generally. The church also plays a role in bw's "invisibility" but that's another story. To date, I've only seen one bw blogger speak on this issue. It appears that most blacks are too afraid to criticize the church.
This is once again another attempt for non black men to evade the "racist" label.
I grew up in Middle Class America. I went to private schools the majority of my life. Trust me. These White and other non Black men know Black women like this exist. These "undiscovered" Black women went to school, plays, football games, birthday parties, and other events with all of these clueless white men.
So basically he is saying that he was incapable of seeing a Black women in the night or any conversations he may of had with an individual Black women. He couldn't seperate her from the stupid ghetto stereotypes on TV??
Really, come off it.
When will people start being honest, and stop with the pity party victimization of Black women. Beautiful intelligent Black women have no issues. It is other people that have the issue. If a man of any race can see you as an individual.
He has the issue.
I agree. This is not a Black woman’s issue at all. White or non-Black men who suddenly discovered Black women who are *gasp* not the stereotypical crap that he and everyone else sees or wants to see, is not the supposed norm. That is the beauty of diversity—we just aren’t all welfare queens affirmative action inbreeds, or OOW champions with AIDS who are supposedly too ugly and too mannish to compete with non-Black women.
There are loads of attractive, interesting, Black women, but they are not noticed because most White and non-Black men automatically filter them out as the exception and not the norm and thus they are rendered invisible. It is not Black women’s responsibility to enlighten White men or otherwise about our supposed aberrant existence, nor should we make ourselves more accessible to these types of men if they can’t even see us in the first place and assess us as individuals---actions of which they give the same privilege and courtesy to every race of women except Black women.The ironic thing is that these supposed Black women are toiling away at college campuses, working in the Corporate world and often times going to same bookstore or Whole Foods and yet we are rare and non-Black men can’t see us? Somehow we have to be a flaming Blue unicorn before we are even seen on the same level as average non-Black women.
Also for these men who supposedly see the light, I am sure they are older, had a couple of divorces under their belt or what not and thus their standards have changed a bit so now all of sudden they may see us as viable, when they wouldn’t even have given us the time of day when they were younger.
Anonymous said...
The problem is that most men already have a viable pool of women from their own cultural/racial pool. There is no shortage of Hispanic women for Hispanic men, or white women for white men etc.
October 13, 2009 11:23 AM
What is your point?
"The problem is that most men already have a viable pool of women from their own cultural/racial pool. There is no shortage of Hispanic women for Hispanic men, or white women for white men etc."
Actually this really doesn't make any sense.
A beautiful, intelligent women is just that.
I honestly don't think that non-black men have some sort of blinders on walking through life. But maybe they have a gene that doesn't allow they to see Black women. IDK
"I grew up in Middle Class America. I went to private schools the majority of my life. Trust me. These White and other non Black men know Black women like this exist. These "undiscovered" Black women went to school, plays, football games, birthday parties, and other events with all of these clueless white men."
----------
I agree with this. These women are everywhere but a lot of non Black men consciously choose to ignore them.
"I agree. This is not a Black woman’s issue at all. White or non-Black men who suddenly discovered Black women who are *gasp* not the stereotypical crap that he and everyone else sees or wants to see, is not the supposed norm."
Yeah, many of them know... they just don't care all that much. I'm an "assimilated" black person who went to school with a lot of white people, had diverse circles of friends, and all of that. People knew good and well that I wasn't "stereotypically black" -- that didn't make me a dating option, though. I'm sure many black and Asian guys with my background share the same story. Where are all of those colorblind people when you need 'em?
Also, who are all of these attractive, professional, single black women working alongside? Odds are, it's white guys. So... I don't think a lack of "discovery" is the issue, here.
@Joe
Co-sign.
yeah...its not lack of discovery, its selective ignorance. I was around white males all my life, they knew how i was, they just didnt' care. even if found me physically/sexually attractive, it didn't happen. lets stop all this we're undiscovered they know we're here...same ole same ole
"Also for these men who supposedly see the light, I am sure they are older, had a couple of divorces under their belt or what not and thus their standards have changed a bit so now all of sudden they may see us as viable, when they wouldn’t even have given us the time of day when they were younger."
*facepalm* I swear, some of the other BF IR blogs will make a woman seem abnormal for not jumping at the opportunity to get with some old dudes.
Hey Sid, how have you been?
I don't outright disagree with this guy, but then I have to say he is not "spot on"
I have loved and dated professional black women, but the fact of the mater is that the black women I have dated have pursued me just as much as I pursued them. They knew exactly what they wanted and they went after it.
OK well I guess the point I am trying to make is that happily involved black women never waited to be discovered.
In an unrelated point I look at dating the same way I do business and contract negotiation. A contract between two people is usually a mutually beneficial thing. Also when it comes to doing business, people are always laughing at me.
Colleagues never agree with me, and that's good, because when they stop laughing that means its time to change direction. If your a black women and "dating out" people are gonna laugh at you, its just a fact. Don't let people intervene in your contracts or investments.
I didn't realize my comment had become a post.
Let me clear up something. I've understood "Apex Sisters" exist all my adult life. What's been new is the realization how open they are to non-bm men.
"Discovery" was a poor word choice. I'll have to think on a better one.
The "lonely" attribute is unfortunate, and the consequences of attracting unworthy men is correct, but how can that descriptor be avoided. Take offense if you want, but there is a lot of romantic lonliness amongst Apex Sisters, and ppl aren't blind. As Evia points out constantly, vet your men, it's the only defense against the pretenders.
Fragment from old comment thread:
In the world of memes, which most of the public consumes unconsciously, creating a new meme is easier than killing old ones.
--------------
I'm going to have to leave for a few hours, sorry.
In London, there is definitely a propensity for older, tired white men, upmarket or not who suddenly feel entitled to a younger attractive black woman. Believe me it's not just in America.
Married white men looking esp for a black mistress, or divorced, no catch by anyone's standards and suddenly they profess their love for hot black women. I find it nauseating.
I would never be caught dead with any of them.
Black women in the UK are holding their own, in the corporate world not so much but i notice them in the medical field, heck the last time I was sick, my doctor was a lovely African lady,my local GP is a black lady, and that's in lilywhite Wimbledon. So believe me some white guy calling us undiscovered is full of it. What does he think this is? Hide and seek?
Men who already know our worth don't have to have some epiphany to know we've always been here.
Even though we're not that mainstream in the UK,black women are everywhere. On a night out, there is usually a group of beautiful black girls,refined to boot, not our loud sisters in the unsavoury parts of London.
These are usually women from African backgrounds like myself, well brought up,educated, terriably old fashioned.
We may be under-represented there's no denying the beauty of black women in the UK.
Sorry am not buying some silly stereotypes or stats, men who are genuinely interested will find us.
Englishmen may be reserved but their interest in black women is quite evident given the amount of times I see BW/WM couples on a night out,on the high street shopping, or in suburbia where i see white men on the school run with their mixed race progeny.
Maybe that's just my part of town.
_____________ PART 1 ____________
First, on a lighter note, Danielle Belton, aka "The Black Snob", has a humourous post on marketing the black woman to potential suitors.
Black Girl: Still Available!
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Olen said...
Wow. Black women have been on American soil for 400 years and we haven't been "discovered"?? Give me a break....
The high-achieving BW under consideration here is a subgroup that has NOT been around very long, and open to approach from non-BM even less time.
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lormarie said...
I'd add "unpresented" to that thought. Black women, from my pov, have not crossed over into the mainstream like other nonblack women have; all in the name of not wanting to sellout. Once we get rid of that mentality, our station will change.
Yes, "unpresented" is closer to what I mean to express. There is the reluctance of BW, as you indicate, but also the cluelessness of most non-BM as far as availability. And groupthink on the part of most non-BM. Not wanting to pioneer, or risk disapproval of friends and family.
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Siditty said...
... in America at least, we still are considered other.
And off the radar screen. And assumed not to be interested.
------------------------------
A.Smith said...
I actually think he may be on to something. In a sense, the type of black woman he's talking about hasn't been discovered. The types of black women who have been discovered are loud, obnoxious, angry and "ghetto*" (read: the stereotype). There are probably more non-black men who would date black women if they were more regularly exposed to the type of black women that exists far more abundantly than our stereotype suggests.
Or they know of successful cultured BW, but believe them to unavailable. In that case, the positive archetype exists, but needs to be refined as to availability,
It's not just individual non-BM that need to be enlightened. Friends and family too have to appreciate this Apex Sista archetype because most men (people in general actually) are not interested in being outliers, and there is no pressing need for them to look outside their comfort zone.
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Cynthia said...
... one is either the "ghetto" model or the "video vixen" model (and sometimes they both go hand in hand).
The type of woman that I am is not easily recognized and surely doesn't appear mainstream because I would be considered "uppity". Which is laughable because I'm just me and I'm open to all different kinds of things.
Apex Sistas are often recognized as such by their non-black aquaintances, although not necessarily the availability aspect, but only as individual exceptions. Transformation in the minds of non-black ppl that is needed is to realize that Apex Sistahood is generalizable as a robust archetype. Thus encouraging not just the reaching out to an individual that they have gotten to know, but a willingness to approach Apex Sistas in general.
_____________ PART 2 ____________
Aisha said...
... I am all for Black women being recognized as viable partners. However, I am hesitant about the whole "lonely" angle. I don't want a bunch of men thinking Black women are all desperate and would jump through hoops for any man who looks their way. That invites predators and users. I want Black women to be put on the same level as other women ...
Damn straight. At no time should the "lonely" aspect be pushed or promoted. But secrets are not really possible in this business. The cat's out of the bag, so prepare yourself to deal with this. Successful presentation will increase volume of potential suitors, with a great portion of playas and opportunists. Certainly no worse than what BW have to deal with when dating BM.
It's unfair. Very unfair. Vetting and caution are strictly needed. Once, like always, BW are required put in more effort than other women to get the same results. Hardly anyone will be motivated to assist you out of an imperitive of fairness. It is what it is.
--------------------------------------
Joe Clyde said...
This is once again another attempt for non black men to evade the "racist" label.
I grew up in Middle Class America. I went to private schools the majority of my life. Trust me. These White and other non Black men know Black women like this exist. These "undiscovered" Black women went to school, plays, football games, birthday parties, and other events with all of these clueless white men.
So basically he is saying that he was incapable of seeing a Black women in the night or any conversations he may of had with an individual Black women. He couldn't seperate her from the stupid ghetto stereotypes on TV??
Really, come off it.
When will people start being honest, and stop with the pity party victimization of Black women. Beautiful intelligent Black women have no issues. It is other people that have the issue. If a man of any race can see you as an individual.
He has the issue.
I will assume you are refering to a generalized "he" representing a typical pontential non-BM suitor. Myself, I don't need corrective lenses. I am perfectly aware, and have always been, of "beautiful intelligent Black women". True, Apex Sistas do not have any real issues as a group. The will each have their individual issues, like all human beings.
The men Joe Clyde specifically describe will not confuse the BW they know with "stupid ghetto stereotypes", but they will vastly underestimate their openness to dating. It is more or less an unquestioned assumption among whites, and to a lesser extent among other non-BM, that BW do not want to date outside their own. And this assumption is reinforced, sometimes aggressively, by many unity-minded BM and BW.
Their friends/family, however, may very well be unable to seperate Apex Sistas from the stupid ghetto stereotypes. And it is an unusual man who will confront the prejudices of his friends/family, when easier options are readily available.
So 1) He may be prejudiced -> don't even consider that guy. 2) He may not percieve your interest -> educate him. 3) He may be leery of the judgement of others -> Give him a chance to change his mind, but don't compromise yourself. Don't humiliate yourself by trying a hard sell.
Perhaps most important of all benefits of upholding, over time, the Apex Sista archetype to the general public is the education of the ignorant individuals who, as friends/family, might hold back potential suitors someday.
_____________ PART 3 ____________
This is once again another attempt for non black men to evade the "racist" label.
I grew up in Middle Class America. I went to private schools the majority of my life. Trust me. These White and other non Black men know Black women like this exist. These "undiscovered" Black women went to school, plays, football games, birthday parties, and other events with all of these clueless white men.
So basically he is saying that he was incapable of seeing a Black women in the night or any conversations he may of had with an individual Black women. He couldn't seperate her from the stupid ghetto stereotypes on TV??
Really, come off it.
When will people start being honest, and stop with the pity party victimization of Black women. Beautiful intelligent Black women have no issues. It is other people that have the issue. If a man of any race can see you as an individual.
He has the issue.
-----------------------------------
Meme said...
... The "Lonely"+"sexy"+"loyal" combination could easily attract some dregs... guys who want to "trade up" from what they can find within their own group (the dude who lives with his mother who'll only date a black woman if she's Halle) and guys that expect to be treated like kings as long as they live because "it's not like she has anywhere else to go."
Vetting and vigilance. Be skeptical.
------------------------------------
Anonymous said...
The problem is that most men already have a viable pool of women from their own cultural/racial pool. There is no shortage of Hispanic women for Hispanic men, or white women for white men etc.
Exactly.
-------------------------------------
laromana says...
To anyone who CHOOSES NOT to accept ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES, they will QUICKLY "discover" that MOST BW are intelligent, dignified, hardworking, successful/striving to be successful, attractive, warm, caring, etc. (and NOTHING LIKE the ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES that are promoted in American culture).
EVERYONE needs to learn to put BW on the SAME LEVEL as OTHER NON-BW and treat us with EQUAL RESPECT. Treating BW like INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS is NOT too much to ask.
Except that is a passive stance on your part, waiting for the mainstream culture to clue in and play fair. Or perhaps demanding it, and reinforcing the myth of the Angry Black Woman.
Time is limited. Some people can be motivated strictly by fairness, but that is rare. Most people do what is easy.
So, don't wait, don't preach, promote the idea. Make the meme of the valuable black wife/girlfriend commonplace. Bloggers blog, Writers write. Filmakers produce. Community leaders educate. Empower other BW with the ideal.
_____________ PART 4 ____________
lormarie said...
It is often said that white males are the biggest "funders" of the rap music industry. For many of them, the video girl is the only bw they see outside of work. Does anyone think they will remember the educated professional woman at work over the sexy video girl if they see her most of the time? No one takes the video girl home to mom. There are a few exceptions, but by and large, educated bw are undescovered.
I suggest staying away from the rap-video fan. Even if he distinguishes you from the "vixen", the fact that he consumes misogyny is not a good sign.
Since whites don't have to have as much social or even professional contact with blacks rather than vice versa, the [negative] stats are all one has to go by. [...] Blacks and whites tend not to socialize with each other outside of the workplace...we still don't even attend the same churches generally. The church also plays a role in bw's "invisibility" ...
It's an asymmetrical situation. You know everything about white ppl; they are still baffled about you. That's why much of what Bppl tend to hide would actually be better out there. It's better some the intricacies of black hair care be out there than to be mysterious. Its better that the history that formed the AfAm identity be out there. Mystery only leads to "the unsettling other".
----------------------------------------
Dark Moon said...
This is not a Black woman’s issue at all. White or non-Black men who suddenly discovered Black women who are *gasp* not the stereotypical crap that he and everyone else sees or wants to see, is not the supposed norm. That is the beauty of diversity—we just aren’t all welfare queens affirmative action inbreeds, or OOW champions with AIDS who are supposedly too ugly and too mannish to compete with non-Black women.
There are loads of attractive, interesting, Black women, but they are not noticed because most White and non-Black men automatically filter them out as the exception and not the norm and thus they are rendered invisible. It is not Black women’s responsibility to enlighten White men or otherwise about our supposed aberrant existence, nor should we make ourselves more accessible to these types of men if they can’t even see us in the first place and assess us as individuals---actions of which they give the same privilege and courtesy to every race of women except Black women.The ironic thing is that these supposed Black women are toiling away at college campuses, working in the Corporate world and often times going to same bookstore or Whole Foods and yet we are rare and non-Black men can’t see us? Somehow we have to be a flaming Blue unicorn before we are even seen on the same level as average non-Black women.
I feel you. You are quite angry, and it is justified.
*deep breath*
Let me, with love, review some stark reality. If you are looking for love, or children, or both, what do you plan to do? Remember, statistics have no compassion. You could get lucky, and live happily ever after with a good man who shares your culture. But that can only happen to some of you. Without pioneering beyond the obvious, many of you (I think most) will have to choose amongst the following options (with or without children):
Mansharing.
Endless short term relationships.
Living alone.
Joining an unequal partner, or unsatisfactory partner.
Tolerating infidelity.
Lesbian relationship.
Do any of those look appealing to you?
Believe me, I am not dancing in the glow of your predicament. I find this to be disheartening. But it does no-one any good to indulge in magical thinking. And time is somewhat limited.
Please note:
I haven't read any of the other comments on this thread. I am posting directly to Aabaakawed. I apologize if I repeat what has already been said.
Aabaakawed:
I do not disagree with your assessment of the problem (Black women are undervalued), but I do not feel you adequately identified the "why" of the problem. You said that the problem exists because The Talented Tenth of Black women are undiscovered. I feel, however, that the reality is that the elite Black women are overshadowed by the other nine out of ten Black women who are walking cultural stereotypes.
I think that the elite tenth of Black females has been discovered. But to many men (Black and non-Black alike), there is an underlying belief that "ghettoism" (for lack of a more apt term) is genetic. I think many non-Black men, especially, feel that what you call the "Apex" Black woman is an anomaly, and that any offspring produced with her would be defective, inferior.
Which isn't to say that men are thinking about procreation when choosing to date. I'm simply pointing out that I feel many "worthy" Black women are ignored because, no matter how exceptional their qualities or even how desirable they are found, they are still saddled with negative associations. I think many men have the following thought process:
"I find her attractive. I find her humurous/intelligent. I enjoy the time I spend with her. But what happens when I bring her home? Once our relationship becomes intimate [not necessarily sexual], will I discover she's "Black"?" [Black, in this context, translating into something near "ghetto".]
Frankly, as long as the Ghetto Black Woman continues to exist in a larger proportion to the Apex Black Woman, and occupies a larger share of mind, the latter archetype will never achieve solid footing.
I would like to hear your strategies and tactics for the re-branding of the Black Woman.
(on a sidenote: I do not like the term "Apex Sista". Or rather, I don't like the word "Sista". It's problematic, to my mind.)
Aabakwaad: But how powerful are black women when it comes to influencing the mainstream culture in the grand scheme of things? Also, I wouldn't believe a "We're great!!!" campaign for a group led and almost exclusively staffed by members of that group if I were outside of the group -- the information's not going to be deemed as "trustworthy" if it's from a source that obviously stands to directly benefit from the beliefs it espouses being spread. Also, there's the question "If they're so great, why do they have to try so hard to convince people of it, why are they so concerned about what others think about them, and why are they evidently tired of being in each other's company?" That's why lobbying orgs hide behind shell games and false fronts when issuing propaganda on behalf of their clients. Additionally, one of the beliefs widely held by non-black men is that we're not physically attractive. How would a campaign effectively dispel something like that, when attractiveness cues are usually imprinted on people during childhood? Also, has any other group of women ever augmented their image in this manner and on their own behalf? Is there precedent?
Also, your lesbianism "option" is preposterous and insulting to actual (non-incarcerated) lesbians, for whom it is not a last resort when no men can be found. And if we can't even revolutionize the traditionally bleak options for single women you pose in lives where we would have sole control, how would we be able to revolutionize the negative images of black women that have existed even prior to the conception of this nation, propagated by a culture that we have minimal control over?
_____________ PART 5 ____________
Let me edit my previous response to Dark Moon to be:
... many of you (I think more than half) will have to choose amongst the following options ...
-----------------------------------------------
Dark Moon said...
Also for these men who supposedly see the light, I am sure they are older, had a couple of divorces under their belt or what not and thus their standards have changed a bit so now all of sudden they may see us as viable, when they wouldn’t even have given us the time of day when they were younger.
You don't know that. There are lots of good men who just need encouragement, to realize this is a direction they can go.
As for this older man (born 1960), I limit my self to older women (born 1950-1970).
------------------------------------------------
I have been playing catch up because I didn't know I had a post until it was two days old. I have been trying to address each comment in chronological order and I am half way through so far. I am going to break with that pattern to address the most recent two comments, then go back to working my way through.
------------------------------------------------
Ronia said...
I do not disagree with your assessment of the problem (Black women are undervalued), but I do not feel you adequately identified the "why" of the problem. You said that the problem exists because The Talented Tenth of Black women are undiscovered. I feel, however, that the reality is that the elite Black women are overshadowed by the other nine out of ten Black women who are walking cultural stereotypes.
[...]
Frankly, as long as the Ghetto Black Woman continues to exist in a larger proportion to the Apex Black Woman, and occupies a larger share of mind, the latter archetype will never achieve solid footing.
Certainly much less than 90% are "walking cultural stereotypes". But yes there are more underclass BW than apex BW. There are also more underclass WM than apex WM.
Ronia said...
I think that the elite tenth of Black females has been discovered. But to many men (Black and non-Black alike), there is an underlying belief that "ghettoism" (for lack of a more apt term) is genetic. I think many non-Black men, especially, feel that what you call the "Apex" Black woman is an anomaly, and that any offspring produced with her would be defective, inferior.
Genetic and/or social inheritance. Whew! That's a thought. Throw-backs. Do quality men think this way? Certainly their friends and family might. Which means the promoted archetype must be broadened to include the family success of BW/non-BM marriages. And that success is real. Did you know that statistically BW/WM marriages last longer than WW/WM, AW/WM, or BW/BM marriages? Think about that; quite a selling point.
Ronia said...
... many "worthy" Black women are ignored because, no matter how exceptional their qualities or even how desirable they are found, they are still saddled with negative associations. I think many men have the following thought process:
"I find her attractive. I find her humourus/intelligent. I enjoy the time I spend with her. But what happens when I bring her home? Once our relationship becomes intimate [not necessarily sexual], will I discover she's "Black"? [Black, in this context, translating into something near "ghetto".]
Well, I would hope my woman would be "Black", in the sense of greater expressiveness, comfort with the sensual aspects of life (not implying inappropriateness), insight into the realities of life's struggles. Those would be selling points. You wouldn't want to be a white woman in a black woman's body. And the man shouldn't want such a thing.
Aabaakawad says,
Except that is a passive stance on your part, waiting for the mainstream culture to clue in and play fair. Or perhaps demanding it, and reinforcing the myth of the Angry Black Woman.
Time is limited. Some people can be motivated strictly by fairness, but that is rare. Most people do what is easy.
So, don't wait, don't preach, promote the idea. Make the meme of the valuable black wife/girlfriend commonplace. Bloggers blog, Writers write. Filmakers produce. Community leaders educate. Empower other BW with the ideal.
laromana says,
Aabaakawad,
I NEVER said I was "passively waiting" for ANTI-BW RACISTS to learn to view BW properly. The BWE blogosphere have already begun to ATTACK/HELP DESTROY the ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES that American media/culture have promoted for many years.
Many times I have suggested that BW with the necessary resources produce POSITIVE, ACCURATE images of BW and some BW are already doing this.
Also, I don't agree with your overly NEGATIVE perspective on the limited "options" you claim BW have in finding QUALITY MEN OF ANY RACE who are interested in SERIOUS DATING or MARRIAGE relationships w/them. MORE and MORE BW can/will/are finding GOOD men of ALL RACES who are willing to commit to long term relationships with them.
We DON'T HAVE TO SETTLE for ANY of the CRAPPY "options" you suggest.
_____________ PART 6 ____________
Meme said...
But how powerful are black women when it comes to influencing the mainstream culture in the grand scheme of things? Also, I wouldn't believe a "We're great!!!" campaign for a group led and almost exclusively staffed by members of that group if I were outside of the group -- the information's not going to be deemed as "trustworthy" if it's from a source that obviously stands to directly benefit from the beliefs it espouses being spread.
I should have been explicit. Promoted by BW and their allies. Plus the ironies and pathos of the genuine apex BW experience is truly made-for-TV-special gold. Believe it or not, you are inherently fascinating to mainstream society. Producers love overcoming-her-expected-role stories. In fact, I'm so convinced this meme is about to bloom, that I think strategy should be based not so much on forcing the issue to be heard, but influencing/managing its expression so it is not mutilated by ignorant mass media.
Meme said...
Also, there's the question "If they're so great, why do they have to try so hard to convince people of it, why are they so concerned about what others think about them, and why are they evidently tired of being in each other's company?" That's why lobbying orgs hide behind shell games and false fronts when issuing propaganda on behalf of their clients.
Any attempt at bullshit will backfire. The various uncomfortable reasons why there are not enough BM will have to be dealt with honestly. This is by far the hardest part of this process to contemplate. It is somewhat humiliating to expose this, It goes against natural instinct. But a large fraction of mainstream society will react with empathy and support.
Meme said...
Also, your lesbianism "option" is preposterous and insulting to actual (non-incarcerated) lesbians, for whom it is not a last resort when no men can be found.
No intent to insult. Homosexual pairing is a fantastic option for the authentically bi-sexual. Although there is nothing wrong taking them along for the ride, Lesbians in this context are at a distinct advantage socially over hetero-women (how often can you say that?). They don't need our help enhancing relationship possibilities because they have each other.
Meme said...
Additionally, one of the beliefs widely held by non-black men is that we're not physically attractive. How would a campaign effectively dispel something like that, when attractiveness cues are usually imprinted on people during childhood?
Actually WM (and to some extent other non-BM) do not share this attitude with BM. Shocking, isn't it! Now WM may or may not be open to BW based on many factors, but not percieved attractiveness, Studies have shown that, adjusted for body mass index, there is no significant difference in the attractiveness of various races to WM. Also, no colorism, no favored hair texture, and no favored facial features that are markers for race. They did slightly favor brunettes, and lots of hair.
Meme said...
Also, has any other group of women ever augmented their image in this manner and on their own behalf? Is there precedent?
The scale is less, but there was a spurt of Japanese women coming to the US after WWII because of a severe shortage of young men in war-devastated Japan. These were the original Cherry Blossom Girls, a term now used for all east-asian mail-order brides. Also European women came over.
One trend I've noticed is that black women with non-black men are overwhelming with white guys, quite disproportionately so.
Remember, there are loads of single Asian men who are affected by IR disparity. There are also more single Mexican men than Mexican women due to work-related immigration.
White men face no disparity because their out-marriage rate is higher than white women's.
Many black women talk about unity among People of Color, what better way of showing unity than marrying each other.
"Actually WM (and to some extent other non-BM) do not share this attitude with BM. Shocking, isn't it?"
Actually, yeah, seeing as I've heard it from non-black men themselves repeatedly proffered as the primary reason whenever they're asked. And apparently, you've mistaken me for someone else -- I don't believe that BM aren't attracted to BW.
"Now WM may or may not be open to BW based on many factors, but not percieved attractiveness, Studies have shown that, adjusted for body mass index, there is no significant difference in the attractiveness of various races to WM. Also, no colorism, no favored hair texture, and no favored facial features that are markers for race. They did slightly favor brunettes, and lots of hair."
Can I ask which study this is? Because I just finished up reading a study that said that the exact opposite is true when deciding who the individual person finds attractive enough to date, as opposed to a more abstract attractiveness assessment.
And are we expected to believe that the media
a) Has no effect on the physical preferences of WM
b) Is in no way reflective of the physical preferences of WM
Because for what you're saying to be true, these things also have to be true, as well, otherwise women that look like Alek Wek would show up on the covers of FHM and Playboy occasionally, because WMs generally have no racialized appearance preferences. But somehow, they never do.
"The scale is less, but there was a spurt of Japanese women coming to the US after WWII because of a severe shortage of young men in war-devastated Japan. These were the original Cherry Blossom Girls, a term now used for all east-asian mail-order brides. Also European women came over."
But did they turn the tide through a self-serving media blitz?
Certainly much less than 90% are "walking cultural stereotypes".
I admire your optimism. Though perhaps the numbers will eventually bear you out. Black women are rising steadily in the socioeconomic sphere, after all, much faster than Black men. It is entirely possible that there are less than 90% of Black women walking around with the "Sistah Street Ghetto 'tude" psychology. However, for the sake of math--- we've got a Talented Tenth, then the other 90%.
But yes there are more underclass BW than apex BW. There are also more underclass WM than apex WM.
Percentage wise, there are more underclass White men than Apex White men. Proportionally, however, I believe the outlook is a bit brighter for Whites. Which, again, is to my mind the biggest challenge Black women face. There are a lot of less than stellar beings in every race, but the Black race as a disproportionately larger number of them.
Genetic and/or social inheritance. Whew! That's a thought.
What can I say? Racial determinism is making a comeback. I think it's safe to conjecture that it's occurred to more than the usual suspects (the usual suspects being the Aryan Brotherhood and their ilk).
Do quality men think this way? Certainly their friends and family might.
I hesitate to denounce any man as less than quality for having such a thought. The less than quality men, to my mind, are the ones who cling to the thought and trumpet it as truth. But I think it's only natural for any human being to wonder about the impact of race and environment, no matter what the PC Police say.
And that success is real. Did you know that statistically BW/WM marriages last longer than WW/WM, AW/WM, or BW/BM marriages? Think about that; quite a selling point.
That is interesting, but I wonder if it would make any difference. Again, we have the issue of anomaly. I think some people view successful B/W marriages (whatever the couples' genders) as out of the ordinary. Furthermore, I feel there is a persistent stereotype about B/W marriages being unions of intellectual equals. And that, in the case of these marriages, the couples are both of inferior quality.
Essentially, the B/W marriage stereotype asserts that all White men married to Black women are of the Eminem type (the White kid who grew up in the 'hood, and is basically the prototypical Black in White flesh); the stereotype also asserts that all White women married to Black men are of the trailer park variety, the trailer park being merely a cousin of the 'hood.
It's difficult to change people's perceptions. And I have heard more than once, when debating this particular stereotype, that "All the good Black women are taken". A White male friend of mine once lamented: "Whenever I meet a Black woman I'd like to bring home to my Mother, it never fails that some other White guy has already discovered her. Where do all of you women come from, and do I need a membership to find you?"
What do you think of that statement?
Well, I would hope my woman would be "Black", in the sense of greater expressiveness, comfort with the sensual aspects of life (not implying inappropriateness), insight into the realities of life's struggles. Those would be selling points. You wouldn't want to be a white woman in a black woman's body. And the man shouldn't want such a thing.
You are really going to have to expound upon this point. What is a "White woman in a Black woman's body"? And just how do you define a "Black" woman? Not all of us are expressive (again, please elaborate here), not all of us are sensual, and not all of us have been forced onto the "proud, strong Black woman" path. Many of us have actually led comfortable and uneventful middle-class lives. Some of us are uptight and cold. Some of us are hippie-dippies who confuse a speed high with love. Some of us are somewhere inbetween.
We're individuals, just like every other woman on the planet. I think we're as tired of being romanticized as we are of being demonized.
In other words, it concerns me that your view of a "Black" woman might actually be part and parcel of the overarching problem. Do you want to pull us from one stereotype only to push us into another?
_____________ PART 7 ____________
Ronia said...
I would like to hear your strategies and tactics for the re-branding of the Black Woman. (on a sidenote: I do not like the term "Apex Sista". Or rather, I don't like the word "Sista". It's problematic, to my mind.)
I would propose we brainstorm strategies and tactics together. "Apex Sista" is a placeholder. But what I like about "Sista[h]" is it is a word held in affection by most BW. We don't want to whitewash each BW into being a Chocolate Becky, or Condoleezza (not that there is anything wrong with that if that is your identity).
------------------------------------------------------
I seem to have been misunderstood about the "options". I said (after a minor edit):
Without pioneering beyond the obvious, many of you (I think more than half) will have to choose amongst the following options (with or without children):
Mansharing.
Endless short term relationships.
Living alone.
Joining an unequal partner, or unsatisfactory partner.
Tolerating infidelity.
Lesbian relationship.
Do any of those look appealing to you?
The point of delineating these "options" was that they are not options at all for self-respecting heterosexual women, thus they should consider "pioneering beyond the obvious".
The fact that some of you could think I was suggesting these as actual alternatives might show that unconsciously you have somewhat resigned yourself to not achieving healthy marriage. Pioneering beyond the obvious in this case would mean pursuing non-BM and promoting yourself to them and their friends and family.
---------------------------------------------
Casper said... [edited for length and typos]
I have loved and dated professional black women, but the fact of the matter is that the black women I have dated have pursued me just as much as I pursued them. They knew exactly what they wanted and they went after it. ... happily involved black women never waited to be discovered. ... I look at dating the same way I do business and contract negotiation. A contract between two people is usually a mutually beneficial thing. ... If you are a black women and "dating out", people are gonna laugh at you, its just a fact. Don't let people intervene in your contracts or investments.
I love your screen name.
In the black culture, BM are very aggressive in pursuit of women. This is probably a factor in why so many of them are successfully dating out. WM are acculturated to be discreet out of respect, it is the disrespectful that are indiscreet, plus their women are more aggressive, a nice result of feminism, BW have been conditioned to be gatekeepers by necessity, constantly countering attempts to get in. A respectful WM hitting on a woman is more of a friendly light tap, ambiguously framed so that the woman can deflect it without outright rejecting the man, so they can continue the asexual aspects of their friendship/acquaintance without embarrassment. This is tremendously important for BW to be aware of. When a thoughtful WM hits on you (a BW), you won't feel it. And detecting no response from you, he will drop the advance out of respect for your autonomy! In the white world, the woman would respond in a similar ambiguous way, the process going back and forth inching toward each other.
@Aabaakawad:
" As Evia points out constantly,...."
Dude seriously.
_____________ PART 8 ____________
MerriMay said...
In London, there is definitely a propensity for older, tired white men, upmarket or not who suddenly feel entitled to a younger attractive black woman. Believe me it's not just in America. Married white men looking esp for a black mistress, or divorced, no catch by anyone's standards and suddenly they profess their love for hot black women. I find it nauseating. I would never be caught dead with any of them.
Just ignore them, they are irrelevant.
MerriMay said...
Englishmen may be reserved but their interest in black women is quite evident given the amount of times I see BW/WM couples on a night out,on the high street shopping, or in suburbia where i see white men on the school run with their mixed race progeny.
Example is the best possible way of promoting the idea of the available desirable BW.
-------------------------------------------------
*Whew* Well now I have responded to every commenter so far, Please, let's continue this conversation. Some of you have non-BM husbands or boyfriends; please try to get them involved in this thread. I'll be back tomorrow.
Danielle Belton, aka "The Black Snob", has a humorous post on marketing the black woman to potential suitors:
Black Girl: Still Available!
I also recommend the following link:
White Knight Courting Ebony Princess
Actually WM (and to some extent other non-BM) do not share this attitude with BM. Shocking, isn't it!
---------
Maybe I missed it but where did she state/imply that it is BM's attitude that BW are not physically attractive? Granted, their are quite a good many Negro males who have no trouble telling the world that the women who share their phenotype are hideous, but their are still a few BM who manage to find a degree of beauty in BW .
Totally off topic, but I found something really interesting. Bill de Blasio, New York City's public advocate, has an AA wife and kids. They say his marriage may have broken a taboo.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20091015/pl_politico/28175
"Thee point of delineating these "options" was that they are not options at all for self-respecting heterosexual women;"
Wow. I find that extremely offensive, unless you're willing to say that a man living alone or engaging in a series of short-term relationships aren't "options at all for self-respecting heterosexual men", as well -- then I'll merely believe that you are dead wrong.
"Remember, there are loads of single Asian men who are affected by IR disparity. There are also more single Mexican men than Mexican women due to work-related immigration."
As someone who has a strong preference for Asian men, I can say that they aren't very receptive to black women. Also, I have to say that I don't want to see these two groups pursuing one another primarily based on perceptions of their widespread rejection by everyone else. And how many of those Latin guys have wives/girlfriends back home already? Let's be serious. However, I do agree that minorities should be more willing to date minorities from different groups instead of seeing whites as the default IR dating pool.
Joe Clyde... is psychic. :)
"Maybe I missed it but where did she state/imply that it is BM's attitude that BW are not physically attractive?"
You didn't miss a thing, Anon -- I didn't, and I never would.
Remember, there are loads of single Asian men who are affected by IR disparity.
Yes, but Black Women and East Asian males occupy the lowest strata of romantic desirability. The worst part of it is that, generally speaking, they aren't attracted to one another either.
I would propose we brainstorm strategies and tactics together. "Apex Sista" is a placeholder. But what I like about "Sista[h]" is it is a word held in affection by most BW. We don't want to whitewash each BW into being a Chocolate Becky, or Condoleezza (not that there is anything wrong with that if that is your identity).
Condolezza Rice is whitewashed? Did you just use that term in the manner I think you did? So are you of the opinion that a Black woman who isn't a creature sprung fully-formed from Spike Lee's brain is "whitewashed"?
I think that what you're attempting to say here is that the "desirable" Black women should not be the ones who are simply White women in Black skin, but the problem is that this thought implies there is a specific, quantifiable way in which to "be Black". A Black valley girl is no less Black because she's a valley girl, any more than a White ghettotastic female is any less White because she's ghetto.
To be honest with you, I am beginning to wonder if perhaps you've watched "Waiting to Exhale" one too many times. Your views about Black women and their romantic situation seems to occupy that sphere.
I must reiterate that the largest problem Black women face in the IR dating market is the stereotype threat, whether that stereotype is negative or positive. Black women want to be approached, measured, and treated as individuals.
Perhaps you are right, and Black women must endure the repositioning to a "positive stereotype" before they can acquire the privilege of individualism. But surely you understand it would still aggravate a lot of Black women.
_____________ PART 9 ___________
Meme said...
"Actually WM (and to some extent other non-BM) do not share this attitude with BM. Shocking, isn't it?"
Actually, yeah, seeing as I've heard it from non-black men themselves repeatedly proffered as the primary reason whenever they're asked. And apparently, you've mistaken me for someone else -- I don't believe that BM aren't attracted to BW.
"Now WM may or may not be open to BW based on many factors, but not percieved attractiveness, Studies have shown that, adjusted for body mass index, there is no significant difference in the attractiveness of various races to WM. Also, no colorism, no favored hair texture, and no favored facial features that are markers for race. They did slightly favor brunettes, and lots of hair."
Can I ask which study this is? Because I just finished up reading a study that said that the exact opposite is true when deciding who the individual person finds attractive enough to date, as opposed to a more abstract attractiveness assessment.
The studies involved college students, a good proxy for the level of man an apex BW would want. The distinction between "date/relationship attractiveness" and "abstract/aesthetic attractiveness" is key here. The studies I refer to and the study you bring do not contradict. Dating attractiveness factors in much more than simply beauty. There is also familiarity and congruence with their standard image of an appropriate partner (not too exotic). So a BW might be thought physically attractive by a WM, but visually clash with what he thinks to be the proper mate. And, although you did not say it or think it, many of the college BM did not appreciate BW of a more african appearance, or even prefer against BW period.
And are we expected to believe that the media
a) Has no effect on the physical preferences of WM
b) Is in no way reflective of the physical preferences of WM
a) Media shows beautiful BW all the time. But they also often show them behaving badly, and they almost never show interracial couples, which feeds into the disconnect between date attractiveness and abstract attractiveness.
b) Media seeks not to offend. There is a subset of WM, usually lower class, that heavily rejects BW as dating material.
Because for what you're saying to be true, these things also have to be true, as well, otherwise women that look like Alek Wek would show up on the covers of FHM and Playboy occasionally, because WMs generally have no racialized appearance preferences. But somehow, they never do.
I don't know much about FHM, but Playboy is on its way out and very conventional, and like most media, seeks not to offend. They recently went chocolate for PM of the Year, however. Most WM find Wek fantastically beautiful, but unapproachablely exotic. She is engaged to a WM, by the way. BM often are unimpressed with her. I have witnessed her being described as "fugly"!
"The scale is less, but there was a spurt of Japanese women coming to the US after WWII because of a severe shortage of young men in war-devastated Japan. These were the original Cherry Blossom Girls, a term now used for all east-asian mail-order brides. Also European women came over."
But did they turn the tide through a self-serving media blitz?
No they didn't, and neither will we. I am thinking more along the lines of word of mouth and internet meme, not a blitz. Cherry Blossom women, both the historical kind, and the current "mail order" kind, were/are promoted by agents of propaganda and word of mouth plus some exposure in non-mainstream media, 100,000 marriages so far. Let me be clear though, I do not imply that Apex BW should present themselves as anything resembling the demure, submissive, vulnerable, wispy archetype put forth for mail order brides.
____________ PART 10___________
Anonymous said...
One trend I've noticed is that black women with non-black men are overwhelming with white guys, quite disproportionately so. ... White men face no disparity because their out-marriage rate is higher than white women's. Many black women talk about unity among People of Color, what better way of showing unity than marrying each other.
In the circle most apex BW tend to run in, depending on geography (outside the Southwest, for ex.), the suitable non-BM are overwhelmingly white guys, True about WM out-marriage rate vs WW. More than a few BW have told me that, if they can't have BM, well then MOC, if can't, well then Italian, Arab, or Spanish WM, if can't, wweeelllll mmaaaybee a paler WM. I don't have any problem with that, just trying for as much congruence as possible. Unity is good to aim for.
-------------------------------------------------
Ronia said...
[[[ Certainly much less than 90% are "walking cultural stereotypes". ]]] I admire your optimism. Though perhaps the numbers will eventually bear you out. Black women are rising steadily in the socioeconomic sphere, after all, much faster than Black men. It is entirely possible that there are less than 90% of Black women walking around with the "Sistah Street Ghetto 'tude" psychology. However, for the sake of math--- we've got a Talented Tenth, then the other 90%.
Talented Tenth, Embarassing Third, and the Vast Middle.
[[[ Genetic and/or social inheritance. Whew! That's a thought. ]]] What can I say? Racial determinism is making a comeback. I think it's safe to conjecture that it's occurred to more than the usual suspects (the usual suspects being the Aryan Brotherhood and their ilk). [[[ Do quality men think this way? Certainly their friends and family might. ]]] I hesitate to denounce any man as less than quality for having such a thought. The less than quality men, to my mind, are the ones who cling to the thought and trumpet it as truth. But I think it's only natural for any human being to wonder about the impact of race and environment, no matter what the PC Police say.
Stories about successful biracial or black children of Apex parents is the best way to fight those ideas. BHO should mean something here. Children of famous black women (excluding entertainers).
[[[ And that success is real. Did you know that statistically BW/WM marriages last longer than WW/WM, AW/WM, or BW/BM marriages? Think about that; quite a selling point. ]]] That is interesting, but I wonder if it would make any difference. Again, we have the issue of anomaly. I think some people view successful B/W marriages (whatever the couples' genders) as out of the ordinary. Furthermore, I feel there is a persistent stereotype about B/W marriages being unions of intellectual equals. And that, in the case of these marriages, the couples are both of inferior quality. Essentially, the B/W marriage stereotype asserts that all White men married to Black women are of the Eminem type (the White kid who grew up in the 'hood, and is basically the prototypical Black in White flesh); the stereotype also asserts that all White women married to Black men are of the trailer park variety, the trailer park being merely a cousin of the 'hood.
Stereotypes are undone by constant exposure to contrasting examples.
It's difficult to change people's perceptions. And I have heard more than once, when debating this particular stereotype, that "All the good Black women are taken". A White male friend of mine once lamented: "Whenever I meet a Black woman I'd like to bring home to my Mother, it never fails that some other White guy has already discovered her. Where do all of you women come from, and do I need a membership to find you?" What do you think of that statement?
His experience would be unusual. Sounds like an excuse.
What I don't understand is why our gender (the BW) is often looked so down upon.
Other WOC seem to be able to be seen for the good as well as the bad (mainly the good), why are we shown in the negative light?
Why am I seen as an anomaly when I know that I'm not? My best friend here was born in the South and she acts like I do. A friend in VA, the same thing. It's not as uncommon as folks would like to think BUT it seems most don't want to try it out and instead will cater to stereotypes.
And this is across the board EVEN with BM and African men - I've come up against the same type of mentality. It's very tiring and frustrating because why do I have to usher you into the mentality that we are all not the same? Would you even see it, do you want too?
Most do not and that's the bottom line.
Cynthia says,
What I don't understand is why our gender (the BW) is often looked so down upon.
Other WOC seem to be able to be seen for the good as well as the bad (mainly the good), why are we shown in the negative light?
Why am I seen as an anomaly when I know that I'm not? My best friend here was born in the South and she acts like I do. A friend in VA, the same thing. It's not as uncommon as folks would like to think BUT it seems most don't want to try it out and instead will cater to stereotypes.
laromana says,
Cynthia,
I share your frustration with the AUTOMATIC ANTI-BW mindset that MANY American WM/NON-BW have towards BW.
I believe that EVEN IF we could ACTIVELY PROMOTE a more POSITIVE, ACCURATE, PRO-BW image to these type of American WM/NON-BM, MANY of them would still CHOOSE to reject BW on the basis of ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.
Ultimately, MOST American WM/NON-BM who JUSTIFY SINGLING out BW for DISCRIMINATORY treatment by CLAIMING that "QUALITY, NON-GHETTO BW haven't BEEN DISCOVERED" are either ANTI-BW RACISTS or ANTI-BW COWARDS.
I am trying to respond to everyone and still manage my life. I work fulltime and take care of both of my disabled parents. Remember I didn't originally intend to post a fully processed and considered proposition, this post was generated because Siditty was intrigued by a comment I made on the IR dating data post. I am glad she did, but this puts me at a huge disadvantage. I am literally thinking on my feet, well actually in my La-Z-Boy. As always happens when racially charged subjects are addressed, landmines are accidentally detonated (statements like "I take extreme offense") because I haven't couched or backstopped everything I say.
But I am not a "racial coward", and will persevere. Actually I have been treated well mostly, I just ask for a little tolerance considering I didn't come here with my ideas all thought out.
Of nescessity, I have to break for a couple of days. I will come back a more integrated proposition. I thank you all for the help in refining and repairing my thinking. It's been intense, but extremely valuable.
Wishing you all progress.
--- Aaby
Sid, is it possible to raise the comment limit above 4096 characters? That is why I am chopping my rerplies in chunky parts (10 so far).
I agree that it's not necessarily the African phenotype that men are rejecting out of hand.
I'm an Black American woman of multiracial heritage. I have an olive complexion, slanted eyes, high cheekbones and wavy sandy-brown hair -- I'm often mistaken for Polynesian, Asian, Latina, etc. There have been a few occasions where men who had approached me thinking I was a member of XYZ ethnic group, would make a quick exit upon learning that I'm Black.
And, no, I wasn't loud, sassy, ghetto or chimp-like in my behavior; I didn't speak in AAVE or bring up in conversation the Church, Affirmative Action or Rap music. I am Black and that was all it took to frighten them off like scared rabbits!
"As always happens when racially charged subjects are addressed, landmines are accidentally detonated (statements like "I take extreme offense") because I haven't couched or backstopped everything I say."
*half-smirk*
"And, no, I wasn't loud, sassy, ghetto or chimp-like in my behavior"
Oh, I don't think that woman's here anymore. I don't think you don't have to convince anyone else that you've been acting human at all times. :) I've actually heard of what you mention happening as well, which I find curious. Did anyone that did that offer an explanation? Were these guys who thought you were the same race as they were, or were they consciously attempting to initiate an interracial relationship, but just "not that kind?"
Well, Aabaakawad, I think at the end of the day, the issue is this:
It doesn't really matter how wonderful any given Black woman proves herself to be: in this society, the prevailing belief is that to marry a Black is to marry down.
And no amount of trumpeting of the "good Black woman" is going to alter that belief, not until there is a shift in the larger view of the Black race as a whole, and that view won't shift until Blacks get their house in order.
However, I am hesitant about the whole "lonely" angle. I don't want a bunch of men thinking Black women are all desperate and would jump through hoops for any man who looks their way. That invites predators and users.
Very true.
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It appears that most blacks are too afraid to criticize the church.
Not this sista, but I do tend to offend people when I do criticize the black church.
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Yeah, many of them know... they just don't care all that much. I'm an "assimilated" black person who went to school with a lot of white people, had diverse circles of friends, and all of that. People knew good and well that I wasn't "stereotypically black" -- that didn't make me a dating option, though. I'm sure many black and Asian guys with my background share the same story. Where are all of those colorblind people when you need 'em?
I agree with Joe Clyde and Meme on this. I was immersed in white people, and the few who did approach me in school, were given flack for it.
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*facepalm* I swear, some of the other BF IR blogs will make a woman seem abnormal for not jumping at the opportunity to get with some old dudes.
Yeah that was my biggest issue in the dating world, people old enough to be my daddy were thinking I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I worked at the mall in high school and this white man who was at minimum 40 was steady hitting on me. I explained to him I was 16 (I was lying I had just turned 18),but that didn't deter him from talking to me.
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I have loved and dated professional black women, but the fact of the mater is that the black women I have dated have pursued me just as much as I pursued them. They knew exactly what they wanted and they went after it.
True, I knew my husband liked me, I became more forward. He responded and the rest is history. But it seems for black women we have to pursue in order to be pursued, other women don't have to it seems.
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Let me clear up something. I've understood "Apex Sisters" exist all my adult life. What's been new is the realization how open they are to non-bm men.
You do have a point, I think many white men are under the impression that black women aren't open to dating IR.
It's unfair. Very unfair. Vetting and caution are strictly needed. Once, like always, BW are required put in more effort than other women to get the same results. Hardly anyone will be motivated to assist you out of an imperitive of fairness. It is what it is.
I definitely agree with this. As much as it isn't fair, it is the way it is.
It's an asymmetrical situation. You know everything about white ppl; they are still baffled about you. That's why much of what Bppl tend to hide would actually be better out there. It's better some the intricacies of black hair care be out there than to be mysterious. Its better that the history that formed the AfAm identity be out there. Mystery only leads to "the unsettling other".
I find that people are going to believe what they want to believe. So it doesn't really help to educate.
Let me, with love, review some stark reality. If you are looking for love, or children, or both, what do you plan to do? Remember, statistics have no compassion. You could get lucky, and live happily ever after with a good man who shares your culture. But that can only happen to some of you.
It isn't all doom and gloom though. My parents have been happily married for 36 years. Yes there are challenges, but it doesn't mean black women don't have a choice, they just have more limitations than other races of women. We don't have to man share or have an unequal partner, nor do we have to tolerate infidelity or go lesbian.
Joe Clyde,
I don't think Aabaakawad knows my feelings on Evia. She I feel perpetuates the stereotypes of black men being "damaged beyond repair" instead of focusing on the majority, she focuses on the minority of black men. Not saying that black men are flawless, but I know, like you do, that black women are not flawless either.
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Aabaakawad,
I would love to get my husband to actively involve himself in my blog, but he doesn't because sometimes this blog makes him angry. I say things he might not agree with, or sometimes commenters say things he doesn't like.
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Unfortunately I can't raise the comment limit. That is blogger doing that nonsense. I am contemplating switching over to another commenting system though.
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OK this is a new theme on this blog, black folks thinking other black folks act "chimp like".
Black women are eternally mad (with justification) at bm chasing white women and dating out. So, why would you expect a white man to dishonor and disrespect white women by dating out? Men dating out hurts the culture that they are dating out from.
Ronia said:
"Well, Aabaakawad, I think at the end of the day, the issue is this:
It doesn't really matter how wonderful any given Black woman proves herself to be: in this society, the prevailing belief is that to marry a Black is to marry down.
And no amount of trumpeting of the "good Black woman" is going to alter that belief, not until there is a shift in the larger view of the Black race as a whole, and that view won't shift until Blacks get their house in order."
_____________________________________________
Aisha said:
I believe there are enough men in this country who don't subscribe to the above that make it possible for all Black women to be married. Black women are what, 6% of the population? So even if the majority of men don't find Black women desirable as mates, there are enough who do that it won't matter. Remember, we don't have to win a popularity contest. As nice as that would be, it isn't necessary.
I don't think the "whole" Black race has to change for Black women to be seen positively. I think Black women can elevate their image independently of Black men. Also, it is not so important to HAVE our house in order as it is to be PERCEIVED as having our house in order. Fake it til you make it.
"So even if the majority of men don't find Black women desirable as mates, there are enough who do that it won't matter."
But... what if the guys that do are disproportionately undesirable themselves for valid reasons and/or want to cherry-pick the most desirable members from the least desirable group -- ala the aforementioned old fogeys? Another reason why black people don't do a ton of marrying out is the going "exchange rate" for blacks in America. If a black person's considered a "6" (as a general assessment of desirable qualities including but by no means limited to physical appeal) in the black community, but outside of it, they're docked like 3 points* for being black and are primarily pursued by/expected to pursue their non-black "fellow" 3s as a result, of course the prospect of dating/marrying out is going to get responses ranging from "meh" to "hell no" from people, even if they're extremely attracted to what they would consider their true equals from other groups.
Just because the percentages match up doesn't mean that the people will, and that's why folks want a "buffer zone" when it comes to the number of candidates/opportunities. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to not want to zip across the country or the world to find people who aren't disgusted by their kind and don't think that they deserve a cookie for it, plus all the other things that people value in mates -- because those two things are merely the bare minimum, not the foundation for lasting, affectionate relationships.It's not about wanting to win a popularity contest, it's about being able to have an amount and quality of out-group choices similar to other non-white women.
"I think Black women can elevate their image independently of Black men."
Not when:
a)black women are well known for in many cases, being solely responsible for raising black men
b)the children of mixed b/w couples are known to often identify as and be socially treated as black by... pretty much everyone
If a non-black man marries a black woman and has kids, the odds are pretty good that he'll end up being the father of someone who will be perceived as (and may identify as) for all intents and purposes, a black male. If he has a problem with black males, this would be a huge issue for the father and a disaster for the kid.
"Men dating out hurts the culture that they are dating out from."
Not really, but whatever.
*lol, this is merely a theoretical example... I don't know how many "points" blackness actually takes away, but studies have shown that the phenomenon is real.
"Black women are eternally mad (with justification) at bm chasing white women and dating out."
The only problem with this WAY OF THINKING is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of black men who DO get married, marry BLACK WOMEN.
A study cited in a previous thread on this blog, I believe, reveals that the overwhelming majority of white men are only interested in dating/marrying white women. And the number of white women looking to date/marry white men ONLY is EVEN HIGHER.
So why are so many black women so concerned about such a relatively small number of the black male population? The overwhelming majority of white women DO NOT WANT BLACK MEN. That's a fact!
Aisha said:
"So even if the majority of men don't find Black women desirable as mates, there are enough who do that it won't matter."
Meme said:
"But... what if the guys that do are disproportionately undesirable themselves for valid reasons and/or want to cherry-pick the most desirable members from the least desirable group -- ala the aforementioned old fogeys?"
My response:
There will be some like this, but not ALL. Many Black men who approach "Apex Sistas" are disproportionately undesirable. So worse case scenario you end up back at square one. How will you know unless you try?
___________________________________________
Meme said:
"Another reason why black people don't do a ton of marrying out is the going "exchange rate" for blacks in America. If a black person's considered a "6" (as a general assessment of desirable qualities including but by no means limited to physical appeal) in the black community, but outside of it, they're docked like 3 points* for being black and are primarily pursued by/expected to pursue their non-black "fellow" 3s as a result, of course the prospect of dating/marrying out is going to get responses ranging from "meh" to "hell no" from people, even if they're extremely attracted to what they would consider their true equals from other groups."
My response:
Not everyone is going to subscribe to that rating system. The type of person who would deduct 3 points for being black is not the type of person "Apex Sistas" would be interested in. Again, everyone outside the Black community does not put Black women at the bottom of the list.
___________________________________________
Meme said:
Just because the percentages match up doesn't mean that the people will, and that's why folks want a "buffer zone" when it comes to the number of candidates/opportunities. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to not want to zip across the country or the world to find people who aren't disgusted by their kind and don't think that they deserve a cookie for it, plus all the other things that people value in mates -- because those two things are merely the bare minimum, not the foundation for lasting, affectionate relationships.It's not about wanting to win a popularity contest, it's about being able to have an amount and quality of out-group choices similar to other non-white women."
My response:
Again, when you factor in ALL the men of ALL races in the USA who would be interested in dating Black women, there are more of them than there are Black women. There aren't that many of us! In this case, the numbers are actually in our favor.
_________________________________________
Aisha said:
"I think Black women can elevate their image independently of Black men."
Meme said:
"Not when:
a)black women are well known for in many cases, being solely responsible for raising black men
b)the children of mixed b/w couples are known to often identify as and be socially treated as black by... pretty much everyone
If a non-black man marries a black woman and has kids, the odds are pretty good that he'll end up being the father of someone who will be perceived as (and may identify as) for all intents and purposes, a black male. If he has a problem with black males, this would be a huge issue for the father and a disaster for the kid."
Aisha said:
I really don't understand how what you wrote above ties into what I said.
______________________________________________
To be honest Meme, and I say this with loving compassion, you seem to be really reaching for every possible failure scenario regarding Black women dating out. I think you are applying the negative mindset of the Black community to everyone else. I also think you have internalized some of that negativity yourself. I don't mean this as a slam, I just want you to see you are being pessimistic, not realistic.
Anonymous said:
"The only problem with this WAY OF THINKING is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of black men who DO get married, marry BLACK WOMEN."
_______________________________________
And the only problem with this is that even if ALL Black men ONLY married Black women, there still would not be enough men to go around. Also, this doesn't factor in the quality of the men. If you want high quality, it gets even worse.
I think I understand your point though, that BM dating out is being exaggerated. But again, that is only one part of the issue.
"So why are so many black women so concerned about such a relatively small number of the black male population? The overwhelming majority of white women DO NOT WANT BLACK MEN. That's a fact!"
Because people in the black community are sold what amounts to a bill of goods about the widespread desirability of black men, and this kind of paranoia about having them "taken from us" is the fruit of that.
"Again, when you factor in ALL the men of ALL races in the USA who would be interested in dating Black women, there are more of them than there are Black women. There aren't that many of us! In this case, the numbers are actually in our favor."
This is pure conjecture. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it is indeed conjecture. However, I've heard it repeated as an article of faith as if there were incontrovertible proof of it... strangely enough, often right alongside suggestions that black women leave the U.S. altogether to look for mates. If what you/they are saying is true, why would such an extreme measure -- and it is extreme -- be a reasonable suggestion to make?
"I really don't understand how what you wrote above ties into what I said."
If a non-black man has a low opinion of black men, he's unlikely to get together with a black woman due to the prospect of having a black male heir.
"Again, everyone outside the Black community does not put Black women at the bottom of the list."
Every individual? Of course not. A hell of a lot of people? Yes. When they're asked, they say so, time and time again and their actions bear it out, as well. But it's not like we're all alone there, black men are right there with us, lol.
And Aisha, do you believe that laromana and Siditty are unrealistic as well? Because their experiences and perspectives seem to line up with my own -- if I've misunderstood/mischaracterized either of your positions, BTW, feel free to shoot me down, lol.
Dang Dang Dang
The humor post I gave out is actually the SEQUEL, and not really as funny. Arrrggh.
The original is
Reviving the Brand
Sorry.
Wow at some of these comments...
A WM that is afraid of getting a BM heir is not the kind of WM who would pursue a BW for anything serious, so why on earth concern yourself with that? lol
Also, most of these eminem "thug" "wiggers" do not pursue BW,often times they prefer their own and this comment should tell you something
"b) Media seeks not to offend. There is a subset of WM, usually lower class, that heavily rejects BW as dating material."
I have experienced this as well...lower class whites, where you'll often find the "wigger" types do not find most BW attractive at all.
And i think this has alot to do with their lifestyle which is hiphop and everything stereotypically black and as you all know, BW are not looked at as a prize in these sort of enviorments...infact,i find that it's usually WM of a higher class that actively and seriously pursue BW for serious relationships and i think this has alot to do with education.
Lower class = lower education.
Higher class = higher education = better understanding of people and higher tolerance.
That's also why i am wary of WM with BM friends.
I have found through experience that wm with bm friends usually have a negative and at times disgusting view of BW.
And WM who do not have BM friends usually have a fresh, non tainted view of BW and are usally curious and enthusiastic about BW in a non sinister way.
And even though this is most unfortunate, i am glad that the WM that usually date BW are eduacted and of higher class.
These old wm you keep talking about are in the minority and would not date a BW seriously anyways, so why concern yourself with them?
Yes,we should vet but don't assume that a BM isn't as backwards and sinsiter as the old white man who keeps giving you dirty looks, a case of wolf in sheeps clothing if you ask me.
Aabaakawad---
Great link! Hilarious! Thanks; I needed the chuckle.
Aisha said:
"Again, when you factor in ALL the men of ALL races in the USA who would be interested in dating Black women, there are more of them than there are Black women. There aren't that many of us! In this case, the numbers are actually in our favor."
Meme said:
This is pure conjecture. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it is indeed conjecture. However, I've heard it repeated as an article of faith as if there were incontrovertible proof of it... strangely enough, often right alongside suggestions that black women leave the U.S. altogether to look for mates. If what you/they are saying is true, why would such an extreme measure -- and it is extreme -- be a reasonable suggestion to make?"
My Response:
I can't speak for those who are suggesting Black women should leave the country, because that's not part of my current statement. I simply said there are more men interested in Black women than there are Black women to go around. Part of the reason it remains conjecture is Black women's own resistance to exercising their own options. They are too busy thinking up reasons for why it can't happen! (Wink)
___________________________________________
Meme said:
"If a non-black man has a low opinion of black men, he's unlikely to get together with a black woman due to the prospect of having a black male heir."
My Response:
Allow me to quote S for my response:
"A WM that is afraid of getting a BM heir is not the kind of WM who would pursue a BW for anything serious, so why on earth concern yourself with that? lol"
_____________________________________________
Aisha said:
"Again, everyone outside the Black community does not put Black women at the bottom of the list."
Meme said:
"Every individual? Of course not. A hell of a lot of people? Yes. When they're asked, they say so, time and time again and their actions bear it out, as well. But it's not like we're all alone there, black men are right there with us, lol."
My response:
I'm only focusing on individuals. When you date/marry, you are doing so with that person, not their entire race. So what the majority thinks doesn't matter, only the person you are with counts.
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Meme said
"And Aisha, do you believe that laromana and Siditty are unrealistic as well? Because their experiences and perspectives seem to line up with my own -- if I've misunderstood/mischaracterized either of your positions, BTW, feel free to shoot me down, lol."
I don't see your beliefs as being exactly the same as siditty and laromana, although you may have some things in common. When I say you are unrealistic, I mean you may think what you are saying is true, but I think it is skewed by negativity. I don't think it's an accurate reflection of the situation. For example,you are concerning yourself with people who deduct points for Blackness and wouldn't want Black offspring. Why focus on those types of people at all?
The target market for Black women is not the general white/non-Black population. It is a specific subset of people who are ALREADY open to Black women and don't need de-programming. Although this may be a small percentage of the population, I still say there are enough of these types of people to go around. I don't know how to state things any differently.
"A WM that is afraid of getting a BM heir is not the kind of WM who would pursue a BW for anything serious, so why on earth concern yourself with that? lol"
Because Aisha said that black women could improve their image independently from black men and convince men to pursue them based on this improved image. I contended that they're inextricably linked when it comes to the prospect of romantic liaisons with black people because a black woman can still bear a black male child with a non-black partner.
Also, the subject here is Abaakawad's proposal on how to encourage more non-black men to pursue black women for serious relationships. Inherent in the topic is a feeling that there's not enough non-black men interested in serious relationships with BW currently. Of course it confuses you, if you don't agree with the very premise that the conversation is based on.
And S, I'm on several IR websites, and I don't know about you, but I'm seeing a ton of older men and what Siditty refers to as "deuces". And as a young person, I'd actually like to engage in some non-serious relationships with desirable candidates.
"The target market for Black women is not the general white/non-Black population."
See, this is the misunderstanding -- I thought it was about the general population of non-black males. May I ask what your belief that "there's enough of these types of people to go around" is based on?
I understand the guy is trying to be complimentary but I've always been taught that when a person opens their mouth they are giving insight into what they think. The first line in the letter he states that "tends toward seeking black women" which sayings to me he is attracted to Black women but he follows that statement directly with "(not exclusively of course)" Of course :) This seems to me like a letter from a white male who is petitioning his brethren to consider the Black woman as a plausible mate IF she is of this "Black Female Talented Tenth." What is this talented tenth? To my knowledge a majority of the women I know are "intelligent, loyal, moral,affectionate, strong, & sexy.." Its just HE hasn't realized this until recently. Whatever he believed Black women were(we all have some ideas) made us not a viable mate. Thanks Columbus but we are doing just fine.
I sort of resent the fact that the underlining insinuation is that we are only valid when White or other non black men decide to marry us. I saw someones comment said we aren't as "mainstream" yet. But whats mainstream? white?
And as far as I know(and I know I'm not speaking for all of us) but many of us prefer our own men thats why certain women are still single. I certainly wouldn't really desire a man that just realized I'm dateable, or better yet Valuable as a woman!
Aisha said:
"The target market for Black women is not the general white/non-Black population."
Meme said:
"See, this is the misunderstanding -- I thought it was about the general population of non-black males. May I ask what your belief that "there's enough of these types of people to go around" is based on?"
My Response:
Of course it couldn't be the general population-many of them have a negative view of Black women that probably won't change and life is too short for all that anyway. I'm talking about the already interested and (maybe)the fence-sitters, lol. I'm basing this belief on personal experience, observations and sheer numbers.
_____________________________________________
Meme said:
"Because Aisha said that black women could improve their image independently from black men and convince men to pursue them based on this improved image. I contended that they're inextricably linked when it comes to the prospect of romantic liaisons with black people because a black woman can still bear a black male child with a non-black partner."
My Response:
If our images are so intertwined, how have Black men been so successful in dating out (those that want to)? Why aren't Black men at the bottom of the dating list? They ARE viewed differently, which means we can be too.
A Black woman can bear a Black male child, but it will be HIS (the non-black man) child raised by him. There is a difference between your child and an adult stranger. Unless the guy views Black males as some devil spawn type that will go bad no matter what. Again, odds are this man is NOT trying to knock up a Black woman, lol.
I honestly don't see a man saying, "Well Black women are wonderful, but they might give me one of those dreaded Black males, so I think I'll pass."
What is this talented tenth? To my knowledge a majority of the women I know are "intelligent, loyal, moral,affectionate, strong, & sexy.."
The quality Black people are grossly outnumbered by mediocre or blatantly inferior Blacks.
The Talented Tenth is essentially the proportion of the Black population composed of individuals who are not a walking statistic, in one form or another, and in addition, have higher levels of achievement (in every sense of the word) than the average Black.
I'm not certain why there's so much resistance to this concept. It is highly probable that every Black who visits this blog is/is surrounded by "non-stereotypical" Blacks, but that's not evidence of anything other than self-selection bias. The average Black is in pretty shoddy condition, no matter the state of those occupying the tail.
We really need to cure ourselves of the magic negroitis. I don't selectively choose my friends. My friends of all colors come from one main factor proximity. If I am raised in a middler to upper middle class neighborhood, why in the hell would I be in the low income areas looking for friends or dating partners? If I work in a professional environment, why would I be surrounded by the unemployed and uneducated?
If you think the majority of black people live in the ghetto, do drugs, and/or live like 50 cent, something is wrong with you. You are not special or magical, you are not the exception.
Even if I am around people from low income areas, they tend to be people who were able to move out of them through education or wise career choices, and many times those people have more elegance, class, and quality than those who have never even seen a housing project.
Do you think all or most white people are supremely educated and professional? Poverty and crime exists for them too. The majority of black people, even the poor ones aren't pathetic or sad, or low class. They just don't have access to opportunity and a lack of knowledge. Just like many white people out there.
"If our images are so intertwined, how have Black men been so successful in dating out (those that want to)? Why aren't Black men at the bottom of the dating list?"
As the OKC results show, they aren't that successful, and they are at the bottom of the dating list. The widespread desirability of black males is a myth perpetuated by black people and paranoid white guys.
They, as men, are just more likely to show up with non-white partners because they're more willing to
a) try that much harder than the next guy to make up the difference in positive response rate by approaching a larger number of women and straying a little from their personal range of "types" when doing so
b)shut up about their negative experiences/high rejection rate so they don't look whiny and people will at least assume that they are a-ok with women.
c) be less adamant about dating an educational and financial equal than women generally are due to gender norms/expectations
d)also, there's probably a subset of people who wouldn't go out of their way to date a black person, but would date one if a particularly desirable candidate "fell into their lap", so to speak. Black men, as guys, are more likely to take the lead, so they're also more likely to tap into this segment of the population without the blow to the ego/values dissonance that some women would have to endure in order to take on the position of pursuer - women are less likely to be interested in/know about a prospective partner who would consider them but is unwilling to try that hard to pursue them, while men are unlikely to know who wouldn't try as hard to begin with, because women aren't expected to "try very hard" for men in general, at least when it comes to hitting on them.
Siditty---
Self-selection bias refers to the fact that the individuals who come to this blog and comment are more likely, by virtue of being on this blog and commenting, to be individuals superior to the average. Generally, they will have more education and better economic standing than the average Black.
As for the "choosing my friends" comment--- yes, Siditty, you do selectively choose your friends. Every one does, just as we selectively choose where we live, how we date, etc.
And this isn't about what *I* believe. The facts are, the average Black is undereducated, poor, mentally deficient, and more likely to have a criminal record. That's just all there is to it.
And there ARE exceptions to the average. You even proved that point by going on to state how you've met underprivileged people who, through hard work and self-reliance, improved their stations in life. Those people, Siditty, ARE the exception.
Why are you so resistant to the concept that there are Black people who are mucking up the genetic stock? And why does it bother you so much that not all Blacks are equal, and that the Black race, as a whole, is in pathetic shape? Furthermore, why does it bother you to acknowledge that the Black race is taking more steps backward than forward?
Perhaps it's from all those centuries of oppression, but Black people, as a whole, seem to get bent completely out of shape by the unfair but true fact that people are not equal.
Do you think all or most white people are supremely educated and professional?
I don't care what White people are or are not. I don't care what Asian or Hispanic people are or are not. I am concerned about the Black race. I want to see improvement for Blacks, and the only way that's going to happen is if Black people admit their deficiencies, acknowledge their shortcomings, and actively involve themselves in the race's improvement.
You seem to think that my acknowledgment of Black people's low station in life means I feel they are beyond salvation, or somehow worthy of being at the bottom. I don't. I believe Blacks, on the whole, are capable of great things if the race simply takes hold of its own destiny. I will not, however, bleed my heart over all the usual excuses for their continued failures. If we stop fighting the reality of our situation as a race, we can make significant and worthwhile changes that will benefit the future of the Black race.
That isn't to say that every Black person will or should become a CEO overnight--- the goal, however, should be a race that can boast more ownership of means of production, more highly-educated individuals, and more self-competence. At the very least, we should be in a position to succour our own in need.
Is this goal abhorrent to you?
____________ PART 11 ___________
Reacting to '... will I discover she's "Black"?' by Ronia, -- Aabaakawad said ...
Well, I would hope my woman would be "Black", in the sense of greater expressiveness, comfort with the sensual aspects of life (not implying inappropriateness), insight into the realities of life's struggles. Those would be selling points. You wouldn't want to be a white woman in a black woman's body. And the man shouldn't want such a thing.
Let me amend: You wouldn't want to be limited to being a white woman in a black woman's body. And the man shouldn't want to limit you to such a thing.
to which Ronia said...
You are really going to have to expound upon this point. What is a "White woman in a Black woman's body"? And just how do you define a "Black" woman? Not all of us are expressive (again, please elaborate here), not all of us are sensual, and not all of us have been forced onto the "proud, strong Black woman" path. Many of us have actually led comfortable and uneventful middle-class lives. Some of us are uptight and cold. Some of us are hippie-dippies who confuse a speed high with love. Some of us are somewhere inbetween. ¶ We're individuals, just like every other woman on the planet. I think we're as tired of being romanticized as we are of being demonized. ¶ In other words, it concerns me that your view of a "Black" woman might actually be part and parcel of the overarching problem. Do you want to pull us from one stereotype only to push us into another?
Hopefully, the amendment helps. I awkwardly shifted context from what I personally am attracted to, to what "you", meaning the BW reading this, wouldn't want to be [limited to], within a single paragraph. I wasn't trying to tighten up the definition of a BW, but rather to allow many aspects, in their various combinations, of what is often associated with being "Black", the word you introduced as a negative descriptor, to remain positively as possible parts of a BW's identity. In other words being "Black" doesn't have to be a problem.
But, yes, the implication was left hanging, which I did not intend, that I am assigning greater expressiveness, sensual comfort, and insight into struggles (not strong black woman, BTW) to the archetype "Apex Sista". I am not. That's just what I happen to like. So, actually, I was trying to promote the very diversity you were concerned was being eliminated.
____________ PART 12 ___________
Reacting to 'I don't like the word "Sista". It's problematic ... by Ronia, -- Aabaakawad said ...
... what I like about "Sista[h]" is [that] it is a word held in affection by most BW. We don't want to whitewash each BW into being a Chocolate Becky, or Condoleezza (not that there is anything wrong with that if that is your identity).
to which Ronia said...
Condolezza Rice is whitewashed? Did you just use that term in the manner I think you did? So are you of the opinion that a Black woman who isn't a creature sprung fully-formed from Spike Lee's brain is "whitewashed"? ¶ I think that what you're attempting to say here is that the "desirable" Black women should not be the ones who are simply White women in Black skin, but the problem is that this thought implies there is a specific, quantifiable way in which to "be Black". A Black valley girl is no less Black because she's a valley girl, any more than a White ghettotastic female is any less White because she's ghetto.
I am not removing the Chocolate Becky, or Ms. Rice, as possible manifestations of the Apex Sister. And I have no problem with the way Condi Rice presents herself. I happen to think it is authentic. (I am only troubled by her politics, which is irrelevant here.) One can be more or less Black. Yes, I do think behavior, mannerisms, interests, voice, and other non-physical aspects of a person are part of their racial identity, although trying to quantify it would be a fools errand. There are Black ppl less african-looking than me, but they are authetically Black by culture and part of their ancestry. Except when she addresses explicitly racial issues, the non-physical aspects of Ms. Rice are indistinguishable from White ppl. If she and her family happened to have barely African appearance, the Blackness of Ms. Rice might be true in some sense, but rather esoteric.
Don't be afraid of the idea of non-physical markers for Blackness. Some are negative, but plenty are wonderful.
Ronia said...
Perhaps you are right, and Black women must endure the repositioning to a "positive stereotype" before they can acquire the privilege of individualism. But surely you understand it would still aggravate a lot of Black women.
Indivial people can learn to distinguish with detail the various BW, I do, but society as a whole relies on archetypes typically when processing issues of identity and worth. I am aggravated too. My nephew is Hispanic, yet he doesn't fit any of the archetypes currently available to hispanics. But the achetype of the assimulated ambitious hispanic, that some people have become aware of, provides a good enough starting point that people presented with my nephew can make the adjustments and understand him as an individual. That is the purpose of the Apex Sista archetype: to provide a good enough starting point that people presented with an accomplished BW can make the adjustments and understand her as an individual.
Aabaakawad says,
Indivial people can learn to distinguish with detail the various BW, I do, but society as a whole relies on archetypes typically when processing issues of identity and worth.
laromana says,
A BW is a BW REGARDLESS of whether ANTI-BW RACISTS or other IGNORANT INDIVIDUALS in American society CHOOSE to view her that way.
BW are not OBLIGATED to CONFORM to ANYONE'S STEREOTYPE (political, social, cultural, etc.)in order to EARN the RIGHT to be treated like INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS.
It is the ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS in American society(NOT BW) who NEED to CHANGE their WARPED, RACIST, ANTI-BW mindset and learn to RESPECT the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and INDIVIDUALITY of BW as they do NON-BW.
Don't be afraid of the idea of non-physical markers for Blackness. Some are negative, but plenty are wonderful.
That's not my issue. My issue is with the notion that women like Condoleezza Rice are somehow "more White" because they are not overtly "culturally Black".
It's the same type of harmful mindset with which many Blacks grow up. We are told in our youth by others that we "Act White" or are "Not Black enough", because we lack the stereotypical cultural markers (be they negative or positive) that people insist are hallmarks of "Blackness" (at least in this country).
I am not "culturally" Black, but I am not any less Black for it. Just ask the KKK.
I do understand what you mean about certain aspects of a person's character being "descriptively ethnic". I do get it. I, however, vehemently disagree that failing to have any of these markers makes one somehow less authentically a part of their race.
Furthermore, the unfortunate implication of your belief that Rice is indistinguishable from White ppl" is that being cultured, eloquent, accomplished in classical music, intelligent, and so forth are somehow "White" characteristics. That may not be what you meant, but the implication exists.
It's rather demeaning.
Ronia says,
Furthermore, the unfortunate implication of your belief that Rice is indistinguishable from White ppl" is that being cultured, eloquent, accomplished in classical music, intelligent, and so forth are somehow "White" characteristics. That may not be what you meant, but the implication exists.
It's rather demeaning.
laromana says,
Ronia,
Thanks for this important clarification. I strongly agree with your analysis and hope more people can LEARN to RESPECT the HUMANITY/INDIVIDUALITY of BW by NOT subjecting us to RACIST ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES.
responding to Ronia
I guess I have a more nuanced view on racial identity. Each of us is an intricate combination of physical identity, inherited identity (family history), cultural identity, and social identity (how society identifies us), and self-identity. It is seldom simple and rarely binary (you are or you ain't). No one of these dimensions dominate. All five dimensions above are blending slowly in America, and baffling contradictions will become commonplace. If we insist that identity only be binary, we will cripple our ability to analyze complex situations. Insisting that any person who's identity is in some ways mixed is full Black and only Black removes any hope of making distinctions or applying critical analysis.
As for Ms. Rice, being cultured, eloquent, and intelligent, had nothing to do with race congruence in my mind, although they have everything to do with being an Apex Sister. If she were not cultured, eloquent, and intelligent, I would still claim that as far as markers of interests and behaviors go, she's very euro. Interest in classical music, well that might qualify as a minor euro-american marker.
I need help expressing myself w/o implying value judgments, yet still being succinct. Or perhaps brevity is impossible in this matter.
___________ PART 14 __________
Meme said...
I find that extremely offensive, unless you're willing to say that a man living alone or engaging in a series of short-term relationships aren't "options at all for self-respecting heterosexual men", as well -- then I'll merely believe that you are dead wrong.
First of all, I am a feminist (with a few small heresies). So I would never apply a double standard.
And although I am something of a prude, I would not say that self-respecting people don't have the option of a series of short-term relationships as a lifestyle choice. What's happened here is that the context has been lost, and that might be my fault. The first time I presented The List, my preface contained this caveat, "If you are looking for love, or children, or both ...". Later, when I re-presented The List, I asserted that "[T]hey are not options at all for self-respecting heterosexual women." without reiterating the caveat above. To have been clear, I should have asserted that "they are not options at all for self-respecting heterosexual women, who are looking for love, or children, or both, when there are viable alternatives." Seeking a series of intentionally short-term relationships might be a path to many good things, but is not a path to love or stable child raising, IMO.
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Aisha, I am so glad you came back.
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When I said, "... I have been treated well mostly.", I didn't mean to imply anyone has treated me badly.
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I have a complex relationship with BWE/IR bloggers, which I do follow. On the one hand, I correspond amiably with one of them. On the other hand, Khadija decided I was overstepping after two months and kicked me off her blog [My offending comment]. I have disagreed through comments with Sara and Harry. My interactions on other BWE/IR blogs has been trivial. Certain concepts pushed by them are unassailable: reciprocity, vetting, opening up dating options, insisting on being treated well, self-improvement, not allowing other people to shame you into going against your own interests, etc.
Where the heat comes in is the issue of DBR BM: How prevalent they are, how damaged they are, and how much they are responsible for the predicament of BW. I have no way to judge this, and have no set opinion. But I do want to share with you some of the theory of anomoly overestimation in social observation (which might lead to an overestimate of the DBR problem) and the phenomenon of amplified distortion in closed partnership markets (which means the predicament the overrepresented gender in even a mildly gender-skewed closed population can be dire). I will try to be brief.
Tomorrow, in my next comment.
Aabaakawad---
Whatever way you look at it, we're still encountering the same problem: a preconceived notion of Blackness, and how a Black woman's interests do/do not fit into "being Black".
I understand perfectly what you mean, but I think it's important that, while you're formulating your overall vision for how to increase/improve society's view of Black women, to consider that many of us do have what are considered "European" traits, and that those traits don't make us any less Black.
It's a bit of a sore point for many Black women. We don't like having our "Blackness" credentials questioned just because we listen to Schubert, play violin, and know more about Surrealism than Punu masques.
___________ PART 15 __________
Camille Muhammad said...
I understand the guy is trying to be complimentary but I've always been taught that when a person opens their mouth they are giving insight into what they think. The first line in the letter he states that "tends toward seeking black women" which sayings to me he is attracted to Black women but he follows that statement directly with "(not exclusively of course)" Of course :)
I got in trouble for "(not exclusively of course)" in the original comment thread too. (This post was originally a comment to another post.) Perhaps some have read that as to indicate not being faithful to an individual relationship. I never date two or more women concurrently, and I am monogamous in my LTRs. Perhaps it was the "of course", as if to say how can anyone be really into BW. All I meant was I am not so stuck on BW that other identities are not considered for romance. I guess I put that in there cuz, while an exclusive preference for a group not your own doesn't have to be a fetish, it does possibly indicate some neurotic tendency.
This seems to me like a letter from a white male who is petitioning his brethren to consider the Black woman as a plausible mate IF she is of this "Black Female Talented Tenth." What is this talented tenth? To my knowledge a majority of the women I know are "intelligent, loyal, moral,affectionate, strong, & sexy.." Its just HE hasn't realized this until recently.
Let me take that last sentence first. Sometimes, I am describing how WM in general see BW, if they se them at all. Sometimes, I am talking about my own feelings. Perhaps I am not always clear which I am talking about. There is no "recently" to my understanding of BW, except the realization that there is more openness to IR from BW than I used to think.
My post is for the consumption primarily of BW, to encourage thinking about how to uplift the public image of BW. The BFTT is a concept developed by black ppl, not me. Oversimplified, it means educated professional BP. But your point is excellent, why just the tenth, why not the bulk of BW who are undervalued in the relationship marketplace? It's not that I only care about the tenth. In fact, in my personal life, I am unlikely to achieve a mate in the top fraction of any race, because my life was marred by 20-25 years of depression, now under control. So I have not achieved what would be expected for a 50 y.o. man. I do not resent this disadvantage, bcs it is entirely appropriate. I will probably find happiness with a women with an equivalent history of being held back from achieving her potential.
Focusing on the BFTT is a strategic position. The mainstream thinks about identity in archetypes/stereotypes, not the actual multi-variate continuous spread of qualities that actually apply to the spectrum of members in a group. Archetypes vs. Stereotypes: A stereotype is an inflexible characterization of a certain identity, w/o room for nuance. An archetype is a basic description of identity meant to be built upon (or subtracted from) to describe an individual. Archetypes are mental tools we use so that we don't have to start from scratch when understanding a specific individual. Unreflective people think in stereotypes. Thoughtful people use archetypes as foundations for building robust descriptions of people. People who are intimately familiar with a population do not need archetypes, but that level of sophistication is usually unavailable to people outside that population.
So, to improve understanding and appreciation of BW (or BP) amongst thoughtful non-black ppl, one or more archetypes must be created to give them a foundation for that appreciation. Simply "good BW" is too broad/varied a category to be addressed by an archetype, IMO. Better to first build an archetype to address the most talented/successful as an endpoint to anchor a spectrum for understanding BW.
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