Tropic Thunder clip "Theme from The Jeffersons"
Now let's go over to Australia. Harry Connick Jr. was recently on a show in Australia called "Hey Hey It's Saturday", which appears to be a "Gong Show" type variety show where regular people showcase their talent and then are judged. Harry Connick Jr. was one of the judges, and apparently his appearance was controversial because he had an issue with an act called the "Red Faces." The group referred to itself as the "Jackson Jive" and were parodying the Jacksons. I guess it was the manner in which they parodied the Jacksons that Connick took issue with. He gave them a zero, and at the end of the show explained why he was uncomfortable. The show did issue an apology for showing the act. In the twitterverse reaction varied, I managed to talk to one Australian guy about this, as he felt it was people being overly politically correct. You guys know my feelings on political correctness. Maybe it was a cultural thing, this took place in Australia after all, but of course these are the same people who gave us this commercial.
OK, now I watched this, and found it unfunny. Maybe I have a horrible sense of humor, but it was a little too much for me. The blackface, the afro wigs, the white suits purple shirts, as well as the name "Jackson Jive" rubbed me the wrong way.
Maybe it was a bit too much like this:
Sometimes blackface doesn't work. I matter of fact, most times it doesn't. Remember the Ted Danson and Whoopi Goldberg debacle? I guess Ted thought he might get a free pass because he was dating Whoopi, but he didn't.
It just didn't work, much like these don't really work either:
I mean I do think most people have a sense of humor, I really do, like I mentioned before I liked "Tropic Thunder", and I remember folks being a bit upset, but no one took to the streets to protest, I also remember this movie, Soul Man, which I probably should have been offended at, but wasn't. It was about a white man passing as black so that he could get a scholarship after being admitted to Harvard Law. I guess they were giving away scholarships to black people en masse back then. It was one of the first movies I saw with an interracial relationship between a black woman and white man (Rae Dawn Chong and C. Thomas Howell, who in real life were married). Of course Rae Dawn Chong was really only half black, her dad is Tommy Chong. I so digressed on that.
I was however offended at this movie, and the reason had nothing to do with race, it was just a bad movie:
I am also offended at much of the modern day Minstrel Show performers such as Lil Wayne and T Pain.
I do wonder why in blackface, they go for the full jet black "look" vs. a more brown or tan approach?
47 comments:
Siditty, got a question for ya:
I noticed that you didn't include the movie "Bamboozled" among your fine examples of Blackface in entertainment.
What are your thoughts on that one?
I remember the uproar about Robert Downey Jr. being in black face in Tropic Thunder. I decided to watch the movie before passing judgement. And I must say I found the movie pretty funny as well. But in addition to the point you made about the movie Siditty, I also think RDJ was poking fun at Hollywood hiring non-black actors to play black characters. But what that group did on "Hey Hey Saturday" was nothing short of buffoonery. I understand there are cultural differences between the use of black face and how it's viewed in the US and Australia, but I still think it's offensive. Australia has it's own black (Aboriginal) population which has been mistreated and ostracized for years. Not to say all Aussies are racist, but rarely is black face OK...the way it was used in Tropic Thunder being an exception.
I have never been a huge fan of Spike Lee, but I actually understood his point in the movie. His blackface was meant to be offensive, but I think he was using the Modern Day Minstrel Show concept to talk about the lack of quality television programs and movies that feature black people. I mean Soul Plane was basically a Minstrel Show. As I stated in the post, there are folks out there like Lil Wayne and T Pain embracing and selling buffoonery to the masses. He just took it one step further. I liked how he used the black producer as the mastermind behind the show. He was being facetious, and the network people ate it up, excited about this show.
I guess I wasn't offended, because I understood the message he was trying to convey.
White Chicks made me uneasy. Tropic Thunder did not. That said, I'm not entirely comfortable with blackface/whiteface as comedic tools, but it should definitely be equal. The same blacks who packed the theaters for that Wayans brothers fiasco had no business protesting Tropic Thunder.
I had a debate about this when it was first released with a black professor I know, and he seriously tried to justify one over the other. Just because.
My view: If one side can do it, both sides can do it. That's how equality works.
His view: Black people should be allowed to do it, but white people shouldn't. History...uh...slavery...uh...civil rights.
Equality is just that, and it seems many blacks simply aren't ready for it.
Hi Siditty,
I can't parse between what is acceptable and unacceptable when it comes to Whites in black face makeup; it may be funny, but it's still offensive.
In the 60's the Wayans and other Black entertainers who play up the sterotypes of Black buffoonery would be called an, "Uncle Tom" or a " sellout". Today, they're just enterprising; like many other Black entertainers.
I don't know if there's a happy medium; entertainment is a business with a monetary objective. I can't begrudge a person who tries to make a living by capitalizing on what people want to see or hear but I don't have to support them if I don't like what they do.
U
Can I lump Tyler Perry into the coonery/buffoonery category? I swear everytime I mention THAT black folks want to act like I'm hating. Hey, I'm black too but I call a spade a spade and a lot of Mr. Perry's stuff can be labeled that, sorry!
I liked White Chicks - I will admit it. Mainly because of Terry Crewes - that guy is hilarious in everything he does to me but I digress, I wasn't all about it because t he Wayan brothers were making fun of white women, I really could care less. They make fun of everyone, anyway.
I loved Tropic Thunder. RDJ is one of my favorite actors and I believe he was making fun of how blacks aren't giving strong roles in movies. They rather (if they could get away with it) put a white person in there with black face BECAUSE I wouldn't put it past the movie industry to do that.
What's your profile pic of Siditty?
TBH I've always been dubious of white Australians, so while this does come as an unpleasant surpise, it's still like... well, yep, I kinda thought so
I did not find Tropic Thunder offensive but I have seen this movie used by some whites to defend the casting of white actors in roles where the character is defined as non white. They say "well if RDJ could play a black guy then an Italian can play a Native American". Now obviously they did not get the message in Tropic Thunder.
Meh.
I'll be more interested in what happens if/when "God of War" makes it to the cinema. There's already been talk of mass boycott if Djimon Hounsou is cast in the role. That should be a fun issue to watch unfold.
"TBH I've always been dubious of white Australians, so while this does come as an unpleasant surpise, it's still like... well, yep, I kinda thought so"
Me too, as well as american "whites" and french "whites". I guess it has to do with the fact that they have so many groups that fall in to the category "other" there and feel they are not "white enough"...see, i don't have the same problem with swedes,or swiss people or even english whites because they don't feel threatened by "coloured people" and they certainly don't feel like they have to prove their whiteness like i see so many aussies do, maybe that's because they don't have too since they have all the stereotypical features of a white person (blonde hair,blue eyes etc) and australians have a more tan look and curly hair...
Everyone keep mentioning white chicks and tropic thunder...what about the madea character and all the black men dressed up as black women in movies?
I find that more offensive because people seem to not care as much and are so used to it that they don't even question it.
I agree> I did not find Robert Downey Jr.'s performance to be offensive. But for those "Jackson Jive" performers when is it ever funny? I just can't imagine a white person or any other race cracking up at seeing someone performing with their face painted black, if anything I think it makes people uncomfortable because if you laugh there's a chance someone is gonna call you a racist... I mean if they want performances they can just watch BET shows such as Frankie and Neffie, Tiny and tina ( whatever her name is), and the other minstrel acts that BET ( and other channels)put on. No need to get themselves all messy !!!
Hey i think they should be fired because they are stupid for doing that skit than they should be sued...
I liked the movie Bamboozled. "Mantan" ;-) It's satire.
i don't have the same problem with swedes,or swiss people or even english whites because they don't feel threatened by "coloured people" and they certainly don't feel like they have to prove their whiteness like i see so many aussies do, maybe that's because they don't have too since they have all the stereotypical features of a white person (blonde hair,blue eyes etc) and australians have a more tan look and curly hair...
That would be quite ironic because Australian whites are English whites.
Thanks for the answer.
At least it gives me different viewpoint to think about while watching the movie (besides liking Damon Wayons, Tommy Davidson and Savion Glover).
"see, i don't have the same problem with swedes,or swiss people or even english whites because they don't feel threatened by "coloured people" and they certainly don't feel like they have to prove their whiteness like i see so many aussies do,"
@ S - Actually, the white English were the ones who colonised Australia, so most of the white Aussie are descendants of those white English folks. And the existence of groups like the BNP (British National Party) tends to disprove the idea that white English folks don't "feel threatend by coloured people." Of course this doesn't apply to all white English folks, but in my own observations from living in London, there are definitely some white English folks who aren't terribly found of folks with a less than pasty complexion.
I didn't mind Tropic Thunder, but I thought Bamboozled was trying to be controversial for the sake of being controversial--but not in a thought-provoking way. The ending just fell apart. That movie had too many different things it was trying to say, it was like watching 10 half-thought out movies. I just found it hard to watch.
I also don't get why blackface is so funny to some people anyway. The people who laugh at it are as stupid as the people performing.
Sidenote: Sid your profile picture is scandalous! If that were the cover of a romance novel, it'd fly off the shelves!
i watched bamboozled on ifc last night, i had never seen it before, for the same reason i did not see tropic thunder, blackface offends and enrages me, as well as any parody of any group of people of color, it is NEVER OKAY!!! i have often been called too sensitve, and that i don't know how to take a joke!! i think we all need to be more sensitve, and stop laughing at things we should not find funny, things that should offend and enrage!!!
Kudos to Harry Connick Jr. for holding the Aussies accountable for their inappropriate behavior and explaining what was wrong with this stupid act.
@Siditty
Have you seen Harry Connick, Jr's "brownface" skit from SNL?
Here's the link;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vtOt5mNEZE&feature=player_embedded
Its Australians, don't get too shocked. Even in Britain one can tell the difference between the Brits and Australians just by the latter's racist attitudes. Just look at their history. I don't expect much better from them.
Anytime you see a white underdog or a wanna be white, watch out.
It doesn't bother me because Connick isn't in blackface, and he is just talking in a more exaggerated way than he already does. Remember he is a Southerner from Louisiana. It's not quite the same. He is making fun of preachers, not black people.
My view: If one side can do it, both sides can do it. That's how equality works.
Your assumption is in America equality has been reached. It hasn't.
Equality is just that, and it seems many blacks simply aren't ready for it.
Actually many whites and people such as yourself have no clue or fail to acknowledge white privilege or the fact that wage disparities between people of the same education level and job experience actually exist. That is the issue at hand. I don't justify one over the other, but I refuse to blame black people for why inequalities in this country exist. People who usually do that listen to what Steve Sailer says or participate in KKK rallies.
I can't parse between what is acceptable and unacceptable when it comes to Whites in black face makeup; it may be funny, but it's still offensive.
In the 60's the Wayans and other Black entertainers who play up the sterotypes of Black buffoonery would be called an, "Uncle Tom" or a " sellout". Today, they're just enterprising; like many other Black entertainers.
I don't know if there's a happy medium; entertainment is a business with a monetary objective. I can't begrudge a person who tries to make a living by capitalizing on what people want to see or hear but I don't have to support them if I don't like what they do.
Very true, it seems that objecting to buffoonery now is considered being "hateful" and not supportive of someone. I like the idea of supporting a black actor or movie, but I shouldn't feel I should be obligated to support them just because they are black.
Can I lump Tyler Perry into the coonery/buffoonery category? I swear everytime I mention THAT black folks want to act like I'm hating. Hey, I'm black too but I call a spade a spade and a lot of Mr. Perry's stuff can be labeled that, sorry!
We're on the same page.
I'll be more interested in what happens if/when "God of War" makes it to the cinema. There's already been talk of mass boycott if Djimon Hounsou is cast in the role. That should be a fun issue to watch unfold.
I wonder where the mass protest was when Angelina Jolie took the role in "Wanted" In the comic, she was a black woman. No one seemed upset.
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Everyone keep mentioning white chicks and tropic thunder...what about the madea character and all the black men dressed up as black women in movies?
I find that more offensive because people seem to not care as much and are so used to it that they don't even question it.
I actually did a post about Tyler Perry a week or so ago, and I addressed my feelings why we have so many black men dressing up as black women and was dismissed saying it was funny and I should lighten up.
I wonder where the mass protest was when Angelina Jolie took the role in "Wanted" In the comic, she was a black woman. No one seemed upset.
Honestly, I think it's just that a lot of people didn't realize the comic book's version WAS a Black woman. Kind of like people didn't know it about Spawn, or some other popular comics that made it to TV in the early/mid 90s.
(and it could also be that Angelina Jolie is the world's darling. She can do nary a wrong.)
Siditty Wrote:
I actually did a post about Tyler Perry a week or so ago, and I addressed my feelings why we have so many black men dressing up as black women and was dismissed saying it was funny and I should lighten up.
Ehav's Response
Dave Chappelle told an interesting story on Oprah once about Hollywood putting black male comics in dresses. Here
"I do wonder why in black face, they go for the full jet black "look" vs. a more brown or tan approach?"
That is the biggest indicator of the racial insensitivity and well...racism that this little bit had smeared all over it. The group were not trying to parody the Jacksons (who at best are medium to dark brown), they were trying to parody their view of the Jackson's as "black people" (with the jet black face paint and ridiculous afros). I mean, Jackson Jive? Really?!?
@Siditty
Okay, I was just curious about the context of that and what you thought about it. Thanks.
Dear anon,
You comment was rejected. This topic has nothing to do with wage gaps or "black privilege". If you can't bother to read the rules, don't bother to post.
Thanks,
The woman with her head up her ass
"Actually many whites and people such as yourself have no clue or fail to acknowledge white privilege or the fact that wage disparities between people of the same education level and job experience actually exist"
Sid,
This person sounds like Brownie Cutie LOL!
I have noticed that there is a type of Black woman who gets involved with white men and her Attitude becomes white washed and takes on some aspects of White male thinking.
Its pretty scary.
Just because you are sleeping with a white guy doesn't mean that you are suddenly tranformed into whiteness, LOL!
I chalk it up to a common female syndrome. Women get involved with men and their personalities get abandoned for the sake of coupling with their partner. They completely lose themselves. And if this type of woman marries a whiteman she starts displaying typical white male prejudices.
Black women into IR please don't lose yourselves. You are a BW first and foremost and will forever be. If your man can't handle that then you shouldn't be with him.
"Wanted" In the comic, she was a black woman. No one seemed upset.
Angelina has done this twice. There was that other movie in which she played a French Bi-racial woman. That woman lacks racial sensitivity. And she adopted an African child albeit in a dodgy manner, therefore she can't be a racist. SMH.
Grata's comments regarding black women in IR are disgusting, by the way. I'm offended, not by the words, but by the fact that there hasn't been any backlash. Making wildly inappropriate assumptions about me and people like me just because I have different views, and I was ambushed just a day ago for allegedly doing the same thing. I guess it's only unfair stereotyping when HawkMom has an opinion.
Is blackface okay? No, I don't think it is. On either side. However, if we can do it, others should be able to do it, too. That is true equality. No, I'm not confused, naive, or aloof. A big reason why we haven't been able to "catch up", in my opinion, is our reluctance to take what comes with it. We want equality, but only if it doesn't make us look bad.
"Sherri" is a good example. I've been debating on a forum about the "screw a white woman" line. I didn't find it funny at all. I have a biracial daughter to raise. I don't want her thinking it's acceptable for people who look like me to say things like that about people who look like her dad, and not the other way around. What's sick to me is some black people's defense of it not being "in context" or "historical reasons". I don't care what the reasons are. If a character on HIMYM said something like that in reference to a black woman, the Earth would spin off its axis and TV would cease to exist. Exaggeration? Yeah, but I'm sure you get the point.
I'm a free speech advocate. I don't care who says what about whom. I despise racial double standards, though. And, regardless of whatever valid reasons there may be, this is a big one.
I don't think you fully understand why people are upset with you. It isn't because you have a difference of opinion, it is the approach. In your mind denigrating and stereotyping is ok. Calling black people chimps is ok. To me that is attacking, not sharing your opinion. There is a huge difference. It also strikes me as odd that you have this belief that most black people are lost, or no good, or messed up in some way. As if you have bought into the stereotypes hook line and sinker. That is frustrating. It is insulting, and it is annoying. I don't deal well with being stereotyped. I don't think most people do. It is the approach and not the opinion that has people attacking you.
Grata and I do not agree on everything, but I respect her opinion. But Grata has never referred to black people as chimps to me either, so maybe I can handle it better. Truth B Told and JoeClyde have different opinions than I do, but again they don't necessarily attack the whole group of people.
"Calling black people chimps is ok. To me that is attacking, not sharing your opinion. There is a huge difference. It also strikes me as odd that you have this belief that most black people are lost, or no good, or messed up in some way."
I didn't call black people "chimps". I was describing the behavior of stereotypical blacks. No matter how many times I repeat myself, though, it doesn't seem to register. I suppose it's much more fun to get all riled up over one out of 100 words.
I don't think the majority of black people are "messed up in some way". I think the majority of black people have common social threads. The Christian faith, AAVE, and certain social beliefs are noticeable similarities in all of the social classes in different parts of the country. You obviously think highly of yourself. There would be no need to distinguish yourself as "different" if you were the majority. I find it odd that you and your readers are patting each other on the back and boasting about your education, while condescending to me about "not understanding" just because I have different views. Meanwhile, I'm accused of thinking I'm better than everybody else? Serious lack of self-awareness going on here. Your blog is called "Siditty" for crying out loud. I wouldn't put so much stock in the title if your content were ironic and sarcastic, but it's not.
"But Grata has never referred to black people as chimps to me either, so maybe I can handle it better."
Two wrongs, huh? "Handle it better" must be code for "look the other way". You're letting your personal feelings affect your integrity as a moderator. Not only is that just bad form, but it's not necessary. Nothing here is personal. I don't know you and you don't know me. These are opinions about things in general. No matter what any of us say, we are content in our lives and will continue living them, unaffected. I haven't been upset by any of this, because I've had this same conversation many times with people in real life. I've said some of the same things. I suppose it's easier to dialogue in person, since typing out our emotions can be draining.
If you or anyone here is actually hurt by what I'm saying, then I'll stop commenting. Seriously, it's not that heavy.
I live around Aussies in London and believe me I wasn't surprised at all about the blackface incident. Also the English can be just as racist, they're reserved people, their racism is more covert, very smart and very hard to detect.
Their cousins in Australia lack the general refinement of the Brits, the Aussies tend to be crass and in your face. Their white south African second cousins are a close second, though they are a minority and wouldn't dare pull a stunt like that. Blacks in South Africa(my origins) aren't having it anymore! lol
Even though Madea and Big Momma are supposed to be "loving" interpretations of a black woman, it just reminds me of the Mammy stereotype--asexual, passive, ignorant, etc. I had mixed feelings about "Tropic Thunder" but I understand that it was supposed to be a parody, so I can't judge it too harshly. But "Hey Hey" Yeah, that was crossing the line and I don't understand how anyone can see that it wasn't offensive. Connick was right, if they had been on a show over here looking like that, Al Sharpton and the others would be protesting and wanting people to boycott the network for airing such garbage. One judge said that it was "cute?" Kind of like the statues of the little Sambos I used to see in White people's corn fields when I was growing up in NC. It's disgusting how acceptable it is for some people and how the rest of us need to just "get over it" and stop being so "sensitive."
It's obvious that you're a coward and can't stand people who challenge you. You would rather have your little cult of crazy people who think that BW can do no wrong and that black and especially white men are evil personified. Your victim mentality is very sad, but I guess that's what keeps you alive. Without your hate and paranoia, you would probably just wither away.
If you or anyone here is actually hurt by what I'm saying, then I'll stop commenting.
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Please, do.
The major problem I see with any form of race imitation as entertainment and comedy is that regardless of the point, the point often gets lost in the false imitation. It is like saying that where some people may look at Tropic Thunder and understand where they were going with it, the wrong person(s) walking in simply sees it as an acceptable form of black face. Not having the hollywood finances to do it like the movie they may relegate themselves to the lowest possible standard to do what they beleive the movie was getting at, i.e. the act vs the concept.
There was even talk on one site I saw about Robert Downey Jr. possibly playing Obama because of his work in Tropic Thunder. Though I doubt that such a thing would ever happen, the issue then seems to open up a Pandora's Box for those ingorant to the real issues. Is it then possible to simply use accepted Hollywood standard actors with the right technology of make up and special affects to play roles of those whom are not the prime focus of Hollywood culture?
Such a thing already happens in some areas of voice acting for cartoons and movies. Just look at the Transformers 2 movie, Family Guy, and The Cleveland Show. Voice actors playing some fabricated black characters under fabricated black cultural contexts.
On the flip side maybe it is like how in Coming to America and a Vampire in Harlem, Eddie Murphy played multiple characters some of them not African American or African. (Coming to America he played a stereotypical old Jewish man and in a Vampire In Brooklyn he played an Italian gangster.)
Whether or not all this is right or wrong is based on the moral and logical context of society. In the end the only way I see black face, or other forms of such, going away at least from most of mainstraim society is when it becomes such a foolish endeavor that no one finds anything about it interesting. Because it has been intreanched in pop culture for the last 150 years that may be a hard thing to accomplish. Yet, if enough people stand up against it at the right times and places it can be greatly diminished.
Just my thoughts.
Sid,
Your [full size version] profile pic needs to be kept behind the counter and handed over in a paper bag.
LOL
I was kind of concerned about this trend, part of me didn't want to believe ppl would stoop so low after all of our history. Now , I have to think about my feelings on this. I am against it, because It is totally possible to dehumanize anyone for nearly any reason. Just encourage a population to believe its funny and make sure that population is marginalized from each other. Turn poverty into humor. Suffering into justice. And its surprisingly easy to get into this, if you don't understand the HISTORY behind it.
"What reversal hast the civil right movement rought?"
"I do wonder why in blackface, they go for the full jet black "look" vs. a more brown or tan approach?"
Brown or tan is too neutral; there are plenty of non-blacks who are a shade of brown/tan, including some Southern European "whites". Very, very dark brown skin is mostly associated with blacks (though it is also common among the peoples of the Indian subcontinent).
The addition of the afro wig is totally unnecessary, as mst people know exactly who is being parodied when they see blackface -- and most especially when it's paired with huge pink lips.
Hey Sid,
You won't believe this. French Vogue has gone Black face too.
French Vogue
"Grata's comments regarding black women in IR are disgusting, by the way. I'm offended, not by the words, but by the fact that there hasn't been any backlash. Making wildly inappropriate assumptions about me and people like me just because I have different views, and I was ambushed just a day ago for allegedly doing the same thing. I guess it's only unfair stereotyping when HawkMom has an opinion."
LOL! Hawkmom, Is this a case of the guilty are always afraid?
Did I mention your name. Now you confirmed that you are that type of IR involved BW that completely loses herself to her partner's negative personality traits.
Disgusting? You bet! Talk to me again when your recover your personality.
I thought Robert Downey Jr was hilarious in blackface - but I think that was because his character was so out there that it was obvious that he was disturbed and not in the least bit racist.
I also loved "White Chicks" - I usually don't like the Wayan brothers, but loved that movie. Thought it was hilarious.
Also loved Bamboozled - since it was an attack on Hollywood's racist past.
Blackface is not always offensive. Why White people - who are not entertainers -- would want to do blackface at parties is beyond me.
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