I found this link to a study about OK Cupid, a dating site. I am lying, my husband found this link for me. Isn't he the best? (the answer is yes) It was interesting and showed per matches and replies what ethnic groups responded to who. I found it odd that men of all races seem to be more open to dating other races of people according to this study, but when you go by racial break down, white men and women are more likely to prefer to stay within their race, in comparison to other groups.
What I found odd about this chart is that all other races of men were more likely to reply to a black female than a black male.
This is a bit depressing. Black women receive fewer responses than other races of women. Black women as per usual, compared to other races of women have to put in more work, with less results when it comes to dating. Per the article:
The data show that black women reply "about a quarter more often" than women of other races, that white men get more responses, and, to quote from the post, "White women prefer white men to the exclusion of everyone else--and Asian and Hispanic women prefer them even more exclusively. These three types of women only respond well to white men. More significantly, these groups' reply rates to non-whites is terrible."
I also find it interesting that my stereotypes were confirmed by this study (no it still doesn't make it true), but it seems asian and hispanic women in general are eager to date white men, and do so exclusively.
An interesting thing I find, in regards to my responses from white men on the blog, white men tend to believe that black women aren't interested in interracial dating, but this study shows that white men are the ones not interested in black women.
And now we see why white men are today's punching bag - at least on the OKCupid blog. They respond less than any other group, and they respond least of all to black women. And speaking of black women, who we saw in the last table responded more than other groups: These ladies are receiving fewer responses than their peers of other races.
Now this chart shows who is likely to date within their race vs. outside their race. No surprise asian females are the most dating to dating interracially almost to the detriment of asian men. Black men even more so. Hispanic men are a bit more eager to date outside their race than hispanic women, even though per the study, hispanic women are eager to exclusively date white men. The surprise comes from whites, who often times are the ones who say race doesn't matter, white men and white women overwhelmingly prefer to date only other white people. The white men are 40% more likely to prefer to date other white people, while white women have a 54% preference to date within their own race. It seems all other races of people are more open to dating interracially than white people.
I would say if we were to use this study, the whole concept of "demographic winter", where folks are scared the white population is becoming extinct, is false. White people more than any other group seems to want to stick to their own, and seem to be prepared to make plenty of all white babies for years to come.
156 comments:
Sorry this isn't related to the post, but I've been reading your blog for a while now, and I just had to thank you for keeping this blog. I just feel that it's really important that this stuff is out there in the open. I hope that even when you 'retire' from blogging, this blog still stays out there for all to read:)
That didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know. Black Women (and East Asian men) are the least desired goods on the romantic market.
Every race is scrambling to be more acceptable to the master race, the Whites; this is particularly true among the East Asians. It is more permissible in most cultures to date/marry White; it is least permissible to date/marry Black.
The Black race is breaking apart more quickly and thoroughly than any other race, for a myriad of reasons, the primary one being that we're generally sick of being on the bottom, and many of us are marrying lighter/Whiter in an effort to breed children higher up on the social scale (caveat: the majority of us are still choosing mates on the basis of shared interests and mutual attraction).
So what's to be done about it? A whole lot of nothing, that's what. It's depressing and sad, but that's the way of it.
I find it frustrating personally and I want to bitch about it but I won't.
I was going to try OkCupid and Match.com maybe I shouldn't waste my time. ;-)
Siddity, you had me halfway cursing out my asian husband this morning when I saw the reply rate for AM to BW, lol! Ba! People suck. Yet another place where BW have to work twice as hard.
You are right this isn't news. I said as much in the past, on the other post related to IR and I was roundly derided for the myth that Whites are open to other races when it is in fact quite the opposite. You can also check out demographics at dating sites through quantcast and will find as per usual that Non-White people are far more likely to want to engage a White person then the opposite.
And you are also right in the implication that Whites will disappear--that fear tactic is false. The true White population may go down somewhat--but they will still be the majority--you will just have more Hispanics especially, who will be able to identify as simply white. On a side note, Asians are more likely to choose a White partner regardless of gender (especially males if given the opportunity) which explains why their population is small—not only are their numbers slightly restricted immigration wise, but many offspring—AW/WM are able to pass for white which once again increases the white population numbers.
And of course we all know the old adage that a Black woman has to be twice as good, physically and everything else, to even get a side glance.
Interesting, although why certain trends appear isn't always obvious. That white men are much less receptive to being approached by women (of all races) than other men is surprising, though it might be the flip-side of white men being the most successful at approaching women. (i. e. the inverse of black women being receptive to men who approach them, as a consequence of doing poorly when they approach men?)
What Ronia said.
I'll be honest. I wasn't seeking out white men to marry, but in my area, I knew that I wouldn't likely marry a black man. I could barely date them. I don't share common interests or ideals with black people anyway.
I can understand why the white men and women want to "stick to their own". I had a white girl friend a few years ago ask me to set her up with a guy friend, but she asked if he was white. I was really offended at the time, and it put a strain on our friendship. I was disturbed, and she was arguing "preference, not prejudice". I feel terrible for making a big deal of it. She was right.
All I can say is most black women are only still interested in dating black men. I don't have a problem with that. When I talk to other black women, they just don't seem to be attracted to white men. If they do find other men attractive they tend to like hispanic men, although they still wont date them.So I am not really concerned about it,because although I date outside my race. Alot of black women that do date out, will still prefer their own. So take comfort in the fact ladies that atleast 90% of black women don't even want white men or any other race of men for that matter. Just the black ones, as few as they are. I know black women who would rather be alone than date outside their race. Too many black women either don't find them attractive or they don't trust them. The ones they might find attractive are on TV. For alot of black women, there is nothing like a black man.
Take my mom. SHe is very beautiful and looks 20 years younger than what she is. Which is 53. White men stare her down trying to get her attention. I remember when we were in Whole Foods. She got so many looks and so much attention. I was watching for her response and it was like they did not even exist. I mean she had young guys older guys and inbetween. My mom like sooooooo many other black women are not turned on at all by white men. I am attracted to them and don't get the response she does.
@ HawkMom
What common interests and ideals do black people share?
I don't think this news is as bleak as one might originally think. You have to keep in mind that this is a self-selected group of people, so the data set is skewed in favor of white.
As we all know, every minority group out there has a dating website. Presumably those who are specifically seeking people of their own race would be more likely to post on those sites. People who are specifically seeking out white partners are more likely to go to a majority or white site.
This wouldn't be true of whites. Presumably they would go to a majority site to find others like themselves. (I assume that white power types also have their own. I haven't seen them, but I'm sure they're out there.) Unlike the minorities they might or might not be open to dating out, but it's not a first priority for them. Those whites who are primarily interested in dating out would presumably seek out the numerous interracial or minority sites out there.
So what you have is a data set that is majorly skewed toward white and gives the impression that white is the most wanted. And while that may well be true, I doubt that it is in the percentages shown in those numbers. I think in order to see dating/mating preferences we'd have to have a much more randomized sample from all the various minority sites as well as the majority sites. I think that would render a much truer picture.
I was on IR Dating Central and there was a blog discussing IR dating. Some of the white guys on there stated that alot of white guys don't think black women want them. I guess that is true for alot of black women. Not me.
Although I'd like to see the results of a more randomized dating survey that includes interracial dating sites, my long time life experience (as a BW who PREFERS NON-BM) bears out the FACT that ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and COWARDICE do make it MUCH HARDER for BW to find men (OF ANY RACE) who will SERIOUSLY DATE and be OPEN TO MARRYING them.
This is a CRITICAL factor because it's not ENOUGH for men to "find BW attractive and stare us down" or CASUALLY DATE us.
They MUST ALSO be willing to establish SERIOUS, LONG TERM RELATIONSHIPS with BW that have the POTENTIAL to LEAD TO MARRIAGE.
In my experience, many NON-BM have "found me attractive" and asked me out but NONE of these CASUAL relationships have led to MARRIAGE which is my ULTIMATE goal. I am still single today because of the pattern of ANTI-BW COWARDICE and/or ANTI-BW RACISM that has kept the NON-BM who pursued me from establishing a COMMITTED, PERMANENT relationship.
Like other BW on this site with similar experiences, I am DISGUSTED/FRUSTRATED by the time I've lost/wasted in past relationships with NON-BM that have led nowhere. It also IRKS me that OTHER NON-BW have had a FAR EASIER time, not only attracting men who will DATE them, but MARRY them as well.
"What common interests and ideals do black people share?"
I meant *most* black people, so my apologies for the typo. Speaking generally - as if there were another way - these are common interests and ideals that most black people share:
- The whole idea of The Black Church and that we must all be "saved", while continuing to fornicate and purposely creating fatherless families
- Maintaining an esoteric bond with crude and vulgar rap/hip-hip/R&B music and culture, while calling for the heads (or jobs) of anyone of a different race for simply playing along with the self-made image
- The idea that Affirmative Action is somehow good for us
- Anything with a "Tyler Perry" stamp on it
- The idea that a belt (or any other foreign object) is the ultimate parenting tool
- The justification of AAVE as an acceptable form of communication - even in casual conversation amongst "educated" black people.*gasp*
I could go on. Whether it applies to anyone here is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, we all know someone who fits "the mold". We're not doing ourselves any favors by pretending it's not true.
I agree with Roslyn, most "general" dating sites have a majority of White members. If you go on a minority site, or an IR site, the numbers will be different. Plus, many people have profiles on more than one website. The same woman who gets an average of 20 replies from a certain demographic group on this site may be getting 40 on another site from that same demographic group. Not to mention the many, many people who don't do internet hook-ups, it's hard to assess what the success rate is for those.
White power dating sites sure exist, it's pretty much safe to assume that any dating site that has "white" in its name is a white power site.
People read everywhere that Black women are the least desired and once they begin to believe it then it becomes true.
We all hear the same things over and over until we believe it whether it was actually true or not in the beginning and the Prophecies are fulfilled.
"What I found odd about this chart is that all other races of men were more likely to reply to a black female than a black male.
That is not true. White, Asian, Hispanic, and Pacific Island respond less than Black men.
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"The data show that black women reply "about a quarter more often" than women of other races, that white men get more responses, and, to quote from the post, "
So that means they are basically looking for White men and not Black men.
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"white men tend to believe that black women aren't interested in interracial dating, but this study shows that white men are the ones not interested in black women.
This goes to show what I have been saying about the Black women loyality myth. Black women are not loyal to Black men. If more White men asked out Black women. They would triple Black men dating out.
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Agreed with Roselyn Holcomb.Various sites are set up for people to find what they are looking for. If one wants to find bw at the top of the barrel, we should look at sites geared to those looking for bw. If not, we will need a more scientific study.
I will agree with a comment from the source.
These are just pure numbers. It says nothing about the attractiveness of the woman. I am positive that Attractive Black women on OkCupid receive tons of responses from White men (Yeaaa) and other races on OkCupid.
Also is this (study of dating patterns at online sites) really a measure of racial dating patterns? How do we know that people weren't making choices based upon things other than race?
What if Latinas are choosing to seek White men not because they're White but because they have college degrees moreso than Latino men?
Maybe others are choosing or not choosing based upon who doesn't have kids.
Or maybe people are choosing based upon geographic preferences which in our segregated society can make their choices seem like they're based on race when they aren't.
I understand that some people or even a majority of people allow race to be a major factor in their choices but don't we have to allow for variables?
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@Ronia
"The Black race is breaking apart more quickly and thoroughly than any other race, for a myriad of reasons, the primary one being that we're generally sick of being on the bottom, and many of us are marrying lighter/Whiter in an effort to breed children higher up on the social scale..."
Do you have any numbers/ studies to support that assertion?
A certain number of Black people have been marrying based on skin color since slavery and yet we are still here. So if 400 years of this occurring hasn't destroyed the "Black race" then how is that your statement is true?
Also other ethnic groups do this as well. many South Asians (Indians) and many Mexicans seek lighter partners for marriage.
I'm not surprised by these findings. Most American white men want white women and vice versa which is fine. There are men out there who do want black women but we have have to try harder than the average female to find them. We are the complete opposite of what is considered beautiful so of course it will be harder for us and sometimes it's even more than just looks. All of the stereotypes associated with black women scare men away as well.
Very informative. I don't think their survey was done using a true scientific sampling model. It no doubt isn't far off though.
Regarding the "Demographic Winter". Over time it's still a real possibility. The birth rate is so low in many European countries that they aren't reproducing at a rate that will replenish the aging population. In France they are PAYING the French to have more children (read: white native French women, not foreigners!)
However, I agree, they will just change the parameters of what constitutes "White" to offset this.
I don't believe "white people" will become extinct, the definition of whiteness will most likely evolve to include many groups previously excluded or on the outer fringes. They will however, be the minority in a global count, if in fact they are not already.
Maz Jobrani, who is Persian (Iranian) is one of my favorite comedians. He says in his routine that is part of the "Axis of Evil" comedy tour that "He's Aryan or White" When I heard that I was like "Yeah Maz? Is that right? Tell that to any Neo-Nazi or white supremacist and they would beg to differ!"
I know that white supremacists are ignorant
of the true origins of the word Aryan (among many other things). But for them it's not JUST skin color it's religion, culture and customs too.
I don't see most Middle Easterners and Hispanics as white. That doesn't change the way they see themselves.
I think MOST non-black people of color in the world have segments of their population that see themselves as superior
to blacks. Not all of any group of people is guilty of the prejudice of a few. But we KNOW that many of them on some level think/feel:
"No matter how bad things are, at least I'm not black!"
Sad, but often too true.
-Moderator 1
Very informative. I don't think their survey was done using a true scientific sampling model. It no doubt isn't far off though.
Regarding the "Demographic Winter" Over time it's still a real possibility. The birth rate is so low in many European countries that they aren't reproducing at a rate that will replenish the aging population. In France they are PAYING the French to have more children (read: white native French women, not foreigners!)
However, I agree, they will just change the parameters of what constitutes "White" to offset this.
I don't believe "white people" will become extinct, the definition of whiteness will most likely evolve to include many groups previously excluded or on the outer fringes. They will however, be the minority in a global count, if in fact they are not already.
Maz Jobrani, who is Persian (Iranian) is one of my favorite comedians. He says in his routine that is part of the "Axis of Evil" comedy tour that "He's Aryan or White" When I heard that I was like "Yeah Maz, is that right? Tell that to any Neo-Nazi or white supremacist and they would beg to differ. “
I know that white supremacists are ignorant of the true origins of the word “Aryan” (among many other things). But for them, I think their bias is about more than JUST skin color. It's religion, culture and customs too.
I don't see most Middle Easterners (Including Iraqi/Iranian people) and Hispanics as white. That doesn't change the way they see themselves.
I think MOST non-black people of color in the world have segments of their population that see themselves as superior to blacks. Not all of any group of people is guilty of the prejudice of a few. But we KNOW that many of them on some level think/feel:
"No matter how bad things are, at least I'm not black!"
SMH...
-Moderator 1
Joe,
Did you look at the charts. Black men are tied with eagerness to date interracially.
So that means they are basically looking for White men and not Black men.
No it means, that no matter who they reply to, men are slow to reply back to them, regardless of race. I don't think all the black women on the site were looking for white men.
This goes to show what I have been saying about the Black women loyality myth. Black women are not loyal to Black men. If more White men asked out Black women. They would triple Black men dating out.
The numbers say different. I still say if I had "held out" for a black man, I would still be single. They just weren't asking me out like white or hispanic guys, and I don't look like a supermodel, nor do I wear weave or contacts, I look like a normal black woman. Black men on the college campus I dated were steady chasing anything not black.
Hey Siditty -
So in other words black women are screwed. It's nothing I didn't already know.
I see it everyday in my neighborhood. White women are the most married with children. About 4 years ago there was a 'trend' of BW/WM dating which has since drizzled out, with little marriages resulting from these unions.
What cracks me up are the black women who delusionally insist there is some shangri la for us. This is NOT the truth at all. It's almost as if they need to keep telling themselves this lie to 'keep hope alive.'
How annoying.
I suppose after these women hit 40 they'll be able to look themselves in the mirror and face the truth.
Unfortunately, there is no priority to marry and procreate with black women regardless of the race of men.
When I see so many BW alone and so many WW provided for, it's truly depressing. The reality is pretty sad.
Most black women place just about everything that is wrong with the world on white men. Do black women have a longer lasting and more hated enemy than white men? It's really no mystery why there are so few bw and wm-they are both in different camps.
Hehehe.
Isn't it funny how one's suspicions get confirmed by real scietific data.
Sometimes I just sit and wonder out to my higher power, what his whole deal is with the BW. No answers still. When he replies I will let y'all know.
What a coincidence that this happened to be OKCupid. That is actually where I met my boyfriend. He contacted me a year ago this month and we are still going strong so don't write the site off just yet! On any of these sites, however, I think it's a crapshoot for bw to initiate contact with men, especially given our perhaps higher (and understandably so) sensitivity to rejection. This article talks about a study which found men and women become more selective once they are the ones being asked out: http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/gettingstarted/9946/dating-101-which-sex-is-pickier.
Men will say they would LOVE for women to ask them out but they really aren't that receptive in real life. Just as I think that self-reported data about preferences for same-race data are actually way lower than the true case. Only about 10% of white men and women marry out. They are just afraid of looking like bigots (to themselves or others) when filling out such surveys.
"That didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know. Black Women (and East Asian men) are the least desired goods on the romantic market."
Actually, in those results, black men were deemed less response-worthy than east Asian men.
"I am positive that Attractive Black women on OkCupid receive tons of responses from White men (Yeaaa) and other races on OkCupid."
I'm an attractive black woman on OKC. I receive very few messages. In fact, that's why I came here... I saw the results and wanted to know if there would be anything here/what Siddity and ya'll had to say about it.
Anecdote -- I just applied to BlackPeopleMeet, and I've recieved more page views there in a couple of hours (low-traffic hours, even!) than I would during a week on OKC, and more unsolicited messages in the same amount of hours than I get on OKC in about a month. The men seem to be old as hell, but that's a problem that seems to follow me wherever I go... and you have to pay to read the messages.
Does anyone know a popular site where black women get a good reception that's as thoroughly free as OKC, and diverse to boot?
"[T]hese are common interests and ideals that most black people share:
- The whole idea of The Black Church and that we must all be "saved", while continuing to fornicate and purposely creating fatherless families
- Maintaining an esoteric bond with crude and vulgar rap/hip-hip/R&B music and culture, while calling for the heads (or jobs) of anyone of a different race for simply playing along with the self-made image
- The idea that Affirmative Action is somehow good for us
- Anything with a "Tyler Perry" stamp on it
- The idea that a belt (or any other foreign object) is the ultimate parenting tool
- The justification of AAVE as an acceptable form of communication - even in casual conversation amongst "educated" black people.*gasp*"
To avoid derailing this thread, I'll just have to respectfully disagree with this list.
Your welcome Anon, I am glad you read it :) At least someone likes it (j/k)
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The Black race is breaking apart more quickly and thoroughly than any other race, for a myriad of reasons, the primary one being that we're generally sick of being on the bottom, and many of us are marrying lighter/Whiter in an effort to breed children higher up on the social scale (caveat: the majority of us are still choosing mates on the basis of shared interests and mutual attraction).
Ronia,
I agree, I think if anyone should be concerned about the demographic winter, it should be American black people.
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I was going to try OkCupid and Match.com maybe I shouldn't waste my time. ;-)
Cynthia,
It can't hurt to try.
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And you are also right in the implication that Whites will disappear--that fear tactic is false. The true White population may go down somewhat--but they will still be the majority--you will just have more Hispanics especially, who will be able to identify as simply white. On a side note, Asians are more likely to choose a White partner regardless of gender (especially males if given the opportunity) which explains why their population is small—not only are their numbers slightly restricted immigration wise, but many offspring—AW/WM are able to pass for white which once again increases the white population numbers.
Darkmoon,
Very true, I find it so strange that AW/WM children can pass as white, when the majority of these children tend to have "asian" features vs. white ones. I have a friend who has a half white/half asian niece and I can't for the life of me see the white in that child. It seems like the trend in America is to have a black/non-black racial designation, and the half asian/half white children fall under non-black I guess, which is why they can pass, but a half black/half white person is supposed to identify as black.
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I'll be honest. I wasn't seeking out white men to marry, but in my area, I knew that I wouldn't likely marry a black man. I could barely date them. I don't share common interests or ideals with black people anyway.
What are common interests or ideals of black people? Last I checked we weren't some huge monolith.
Hawkmom,
If you feel that IR relationships are wrong and people should stick to their own kind, why are you married interracially? You specifically sought out a white man, so to me that means you were eager to date IR, but yet now you sound as if you are against it?
Anonymous - You're entitled to disagree. If The List doesn't apply to *you*, fine. I made that part very clear. However, you and I both know it applies to a vast majority. To pretend otherwise doesn't really make things better.
All I can say is most black women are only still interested in dating black men. I don't have a problem with that.
The study seems to say something different. That black women are more willing to date IR.
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I don't think this news is as bleak as one might originally think. You have to keep in mind that this is a self-selected group of people, so the data set is skewed in favor of white.
Roslyn,
Very true.
I think in order to see dating/mating preferences we'd have to have a much more randomized sample from all the various minority sites as well as the majority sites. I think that would render a much truer picture.
Yes it seems these studies are usually only done on more "mainstream" sites and not niche ones like blackpeoplemeet.com. My 78 year old great aunt put a personal ad on blackpeoplemeet.com and she got tons of responses. I assume if she can get responses, someone younger might be able to score, and not all the people who responded to her were black, she had quite a few white men who also replied. Yes, I know my great aunt is a hoochie, but hey I'm impressed she knows how to use the internet.
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Hawkmom,
I hate to be this way, but I can't help but think you are a troll, to negatively stereotype black people as this mass monolith is insulting and just because you know someone who fits the mold, doesn't mean it reflects the majority.
I made a post on Tyler Perry recently and the majority of people, who were black, agreed that they were not huge fans of Mr. Perry. I know more black atheists than white ones, I know many fundalmentalists church white people, I live in Texas. I know many who are single with children. I don't speak ebonics and the majority of the black people I know do not speak ebonics. I don't think all black people listen to vulgar hip hop or rap, and I know for a fact black music goes beyond this, it seems that you don't. I agree Affirmative Action is good for me, I guess that makes me uber black and all, but from the staggering wage gap between people of the same education and professional experience, I definitely support it. I don't live in lala land where racism is dead and everyone loves each other, so I am not as trusting I guess.
As my mother always says, if you hang in the gutter, you see nothing but trash. Just because you choose to surround yourself with people like this, doesn't mean the majority of people are like this.
Good for White people then. What is wrong with dating and preferring to date within your own racial group?
To be quite frank, one of the reasons you see more Black American women dating outside of their race is because Black men have made it abundantly clear that Black men will cross the color line for love.
The 70% single rate for Black women means that they have to date out - or stay single.
As a BW married to a BM, I can see why many feel comfortable in their own group - it just seems natural. However, I wouldn't limit myself to BM if I found myself single.
Very informative. I don't think their survey was done using a true scientific sampling model. It no doubt isn't far off though.
Very true, we don't know all the details of the samples, how samples were determined, and this is based upon one website.
I think MOST non-black people of color in the world have segments of their population that see themselves as superior to blacks. Not all of any group of people is guilty of the prejudice of a few. But we KNOW that many of them on some level think/feel: "No matter how bad things are, at least I'm not black!" Sad, but often too true.
I agree.
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Most black women place just about everything that is wrong with the world on white men. Do black women have a longer lasting and more hated enemy than white men? It's really no mystery why there are so few bw and wm-they are both in different camps.
Do we? What study did you use to determine this?
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What a coincidence that this happened to be OKCupid. That is actually where I met my boyfriend. He contacted me a year ago this month and we are still going strong so don't write the site off just yet!
Very true. This blog has plenty of people who have had successful relationships between black women and white men. It isn't all doom and gloom.
Siditty - I don't feel that IR are wrong. I simply said I understand why white men would prefer "sticking to their own". Considering the media images and actual behaviors of other black women I've seen, I doubt I would be interested in them, either. The infinite sass, the loudness, the flashy demeanor and style of dress, the sense of entitlement because they are "strong black women".
Also I specifically noted that I was not seeking out white men. I just knew I couldn't date black men in my area anymore. In college I dated guys of different races (and even nationalities), and I found myself more compatible with the ones who shared my tastes in music, movies, and other interests. I tried my hand at the "ideal black man" (i.e. intelligent, handsome, black Greek, articulate) and he was a total douchebag. That's the problem with black women fawning all over a black guy who looks good on paper. They realize this and it goes to their heads, then they think they're too good for "us" and get a white woman, which makes "us" feel betrayed. It's dumb.
Generally speaking, though, our cultures do have different interests and this is how I can understand the disconnect. I commented on this in a previous entry, I think. Black women are cutting themselves off at the knees by creating all of these criteria to find an "equal" partner. So you get your Harvard business-educated black man, then what? That doesn't guarantee he'll be a man of compassion, integrity, or that you'll even be compatible. Say what you will about white women, but they get and stay married at much higher rates than we do. It's not always perfect, but nothing ever is. Black women are shooting themselves in the feet waiting around for the "perfect black man", is all I'm saying. Find that person that you can connect with, regardless of their social standing, educational background, or race.
Siditty: You're actually proving my point. I've made it very clear - several times - that I understand not all black people are like this. However, a sweeping majority are. Continue being different. I'm different. It doesn't change what is actually out there.
Also, no, I'm not a troll. I don't understand why one must be a troll is they're not willing to unite under the "Sistah"hood. Although, your mother's advise is right, I don't hang out in the gutter. I simply go out into the world. I've seen highly educated black people behave like stepin fetchit around me. This is why I hold these views. I'm not watching BET or cruising the ghetto* looking for stereotypes to confirm my "suspicions". These people are out there. I'm not getting why people are playing coy here.
*I happen to get along better with ghetto people than "the elites" for some reason. Ghetto black women, in particular. I can't explain it, but they don't give me any trouble. Their behavior is a result of their lack of education and poverty. I understand that. I have trouble with the black "elites" and the bourgeoisie that have all of the advantages and still behave like chimps. Those are the ones that frustrate and embarrass me.
I think HawkMom has a point.
No, Black Americans are not a monolith, and no, we aren't all alike. HOWEVER, there is more homogeneity among American Blacks than not. Christ, cholesterol, and crime are three traits that are most prevalent among Black Americans.
No, not ALL Black Americans are religious. No, not ALL Black Americans are criminals. No, not ALL Black Americans are overweight. And no, not ALL Black Americans are poor, poorly educated, or violent.
And no, these issues are NOT, in any way, distinctive to only the Black race.
However, because Black Americans are disproportionately afflicted with these issues, it is difficult for the regular, everyday, "just doing my job, paying my taxes, living my life" Black to fight the stereotypes.
There is a large swathe of Black America that doesn't fit into Black stereotypes. We aren't religious, we dislike Tyler Perry, we're not fans of hip-hop/rap, we disagree with Affirmative Action, we don't speak ebonics, we think Jackson and Sharpton should sit down and keep quiet--- hell, some of us even vote Republican or Independent and didn't vote for Obama (oh horrors!). We value education, we work hard, we're decent people.
But the fact of the matter is, we are a minority within the larger minority. To the rest of society, we're statistical noise.
I think that if we stopped pretending otherwise--- if we stopped acting like stereotypes don't have a basis in reality--- we could do something proactive about the problems facing the Black race. Preferably by addressing the ill-behaviour of other Blacks and forcibly correcting it, turning the tide for all Black Americans.
I think one of the biggest problems within Black America is that it's taboo to say anything negative about Blacks. There's such a fear of internal criticism (especially if spoken where "Whitey" can hear it), and that's why nothing is changing for Black Americans. On the whole, the racial issue seems to have worsened, as both a combination of inherent racism in this country as well as because Blacks are a pathetic lot (again, not ALL, not ALL).
(I speak here only of American Blacks because I am an American and my own citizens are my primary concern.)
To be quite frank, one of the reasons you see more "Black American women dating outside of their race is because Black men have made it abundantly clear that Black men will cross the color line for love."
If there were many more eligible black men than there are now I believe you'd say IR numbers with black women drop to almost nothing.
"And of course we all know the old adage that a Black woman has to be twice as good, physically and everything else, to even get a side glance."
Could someone give a real life example of this? I mean, who's a real life example of this?
"To be quite frank, one of the reasons you see more Black American women dating outside of their race is because Black men have made it abundantly clear that Black men will cross the color line for love."
But these results, the testimonies of many a black man that I've heard, and the actual outmarriage rates among black males show that they're generally not all that successful at doing so, even though they may be quite willing. The issue isn't that black men are marrying other types of women in droves, the issue is that they often aren't marrying anyone at all. For the most desired subset of black males (educated, erudite, attractive, tall, high-earning/highly-esteemed occupation, physically fit, childless but interested in having children eventually, socially adept, religious w/o being insufferably so) things might be different, but your regular Joe isn't having non-black women beat down his door either, or even having them do much more than look through the peephole and turn away when he beats on theirs.
Because men are expected to do the pursuing, active rejection is seen as a more common occurrence, and guys who complain about it are deemed less masculine than the ones who "suck it up", black men have managed to hide the fact that they often have to work much much harder to get non-black women, especially in the same volume/similar attractiveness levels as they could within their own race.
"Black women are cutting themselves off at the knees by creating all of these criteria to find an "equal" partner. So you get your Harvard business-educated black man, then what? That doesn't guarantee he'll be a man of compassion, integrity, or that you'll even be compatible. Say what you will about white women, but they get and stay married at much higher rates than we do."
But it's not because white women look at the content of a man's character sans all of the trappings, or some such thing, it's because they have more opportunities to settle down with equals, and they overwhelmingly do, because they also believe that they have more in common with men who have similar life experiences... the presence of a common educational background and social standing figure quite prominently into that for them.
You can say that black women can't afford to do the same because we're not presented with the same type/amount of options, but these criteria for consideration are indeed the norm when it comes to other groups, and emulating them would mean retaining those metrics, not discarding them.
"I think in order to see dating/mating preferences we'd have to have a much more randomized sample from all the various minority sites as well as the majority sites."
OKC had a point. The other sites would probably never release their data because it makes their customers look bad and would keep minorities from becoming and staying customers on more mainstream sites... hell, because they're going to be harder to match, they may stay on these sites longer than their white counterparts before they realize that it's not just them/not because of (mutable characteristic/attribute) and that out of say, a million active members, they only have a chance in hell of engaging with a thousand that may not be located in their part of the country or even this country and may have little in common with them other than a willingness to accept their race.
Yes, I know my great aunt is a hoochie, but hey I'm impressed she knows how to use the internet.
Now see, that's not a sentence you see every day. Personally if I have the energy to be a hoochie at 78 I'd be proud as hell.
Could someone give a real life example of this? I mean, who's a real life example of this?
My brother. Every black woman he dated had to literally be a virgin, yet he married a white woman who was for all intents and purposes a prostitute.
I would say as a general rule of thumb that it's not a good idea to respond to men's ads. It's much better to post your own ad and let men respond to you. And don't go rifling through his profile to see if he selected black women as a preference. He probably didn't, but obviously if he responded to your ad he's interested in you. Men are legendary for saying one thing and doing another. There's a world of difference between what a man thinks when he's completing a profile and when he sees a photo of an attractive woman.
"She got so many looks and so much attention. I was watching for her response and it was like they did not even exist. I mean she had young guys older guys and inbetween. My mom like sooooooo many other black women are not turned on at all by white men. I am attracted to them and don't get the response she does."
Why do you think she gets so much response and you don't? what is the difference between you and your mother? looks,character,behaviour...?
Once you figure it out, then you can do something about it.
I would say as a general rule of thumb that it's not a good idea to respond to men's ads. It's much better to post your own ad and let men respond to you. And don't go rifling through his profile to see if he selected black women as a preference. He probably didn't, but obviously if he responded to your ad he's interested in you.
___________________________
Jeez...I wouldn't think too highly or accept this man in the first place.
The fact that you're excusing this behavior in order to get ANY man, is the problem I see with most black women 'advising' other BW...BW who may be more selective and have standards.
I'm not going to accept a man in my life that had lowered-expectations for me in the first place. If you do, goody for you.
It would piss me off royally to know he was attracted to me superficially.
Could someone give a real life example of this? I mean, who's a real life example of this?
My brother. Every black woman he dated had to literally be a virgin, yet he married a white woman who was for all intents and purposes a prostitute.
Sorry, what I meant is how good looking does a black woman have to be for white man to accept dating her? Beyonce, Kerry Washington type of looks?
I am so FED UP/DISGUSTED with continuing ANTI-BW RACISM in the dating world that makes it MUCH HARDER for BW to find men of ANY RACE to SERIOUSLY DATE and MARRY than for NON-BW.
I would like to see a successful BW in the business world set up an exclusive dating site for BW with special services/benefits to facilitate the vetting/dating process and lead to MORE POSITIVE,SUCCESSFUL DATING and MARRIAGE relationships. I would want to see an expert marketer hired to promote this site, recruit quality men of ALL RACES (who are interested in establishing SERIOUS DATING relationships with BW that could lead to MARRIAGE), and recruit as many BW as possible to use this exclusive site.
*****If there's a BW who can implement these ideas, feel free to use them.
The SPECIAL SERVICES/BENEFITS for this exclusive dating site for BW could include:
-multitiered levels of membership(from free to paid) depending on the services/benefits each member desires
-SPECIAL SERVICES/BENEFITS would include:
*background checks to screen potential dates and insure they're single, non-criminals, etc.
*special CULTURAL COMPATIBILITY inventory to vet potential dates and SCREEN OUT those who aren't ready for/able to have a positive relationship with a BW
*MATCHING PREFERENCE feature to help BW get potential dates that MOST CLOSELY MEET their criteria for looks, age, personality type, chemistry.
*VIRTUAL WINGWOMAN feature that makes arrangements for local events/activities for each BW to attend with her date.
BW are as good as NON-BW and we deserve to find QUALITY men of ANY RACE to love and commit to us.
Keep in mind black women, that white men (and non-black men in general) GREATLY outnumber black women in the America. There are more of THEM willing to marry YOU, than there are of YOU willing to marry THEM.
Why do you think she gets so much response and you don't? what is the difference between you and your mother? looks,character,behaviour...?
Once you figure it out, then you can do something about it.
================================
Well I am bigger than she is, not fat but not size sever or eight like her. We look just alike in the face, except my face is ofcourse a little puffier. The guys at Whole Foods could not judge from either character because we were just shopping and chatting quietly amongst ourselves. But I am nice just like my mom. So I guess her face and body is what got them. I understand white guys prefer much smaller women and black women with the exception of some have larger frames. To me that is not a bad thing if you are in shape. There are alot of black women who are athletic who are still larger than the average white chick. Although there are alot of fat women here period black and white. My mom just happens to be blessed with a cute petite figure and she takes very good care of herself. I have always thought my mom was one of the prettiest women I know and I am not saying that because she is my mom, but she is very beautiful and people tell her that wherever she goes.
One of the white guys who was there could not have been any older than 30 if that and he went out of his way to ask if she needed anything. HE DID NOT EVEN WORK THERE. He was so handsome. Tall about 6'2, dark brown curly hair, green eyes, and great freaking legs. Plus he did not have the average white guy thin lips. THey were nice and full. My mom just looked politely at him, smiled and said, "thanks I'm okay" I looked like damn. Why could it not have been me. So while I am proud of my old girl for being able to pull men like that. I wish I could get that kind of attention from guys that looked like that. I guess just because we favor is not enough, I will have to be her size as well. That is something I will never be or want to be. I am a size 16 now and the lowest I want to get to is a size 12. I know that's all it was.
Anonymous says,
Keep in mind black women, that white men (and non-black men in general) GREATLY outnumber black women in the America. There are more of THEM willing to marry YOU, than there are of YOU willing to marry THEM.
laromana says,
If your assertion is TRUE, the NON-BM who (GREATLY OUTNUMBER BW) are "WILLING TO MARRY BW" need to ACTUALLY PURSUE BW for SERIOUS DATING relationships that will LEAD TO MARRIAGE, otherwise what you're SAYING doesn't CHANGE ANYTHING for REAL LIFE BW and their relationship prospects.
This "study" does confirm a few of my suspicians, white men are the most desired species on the planet, white women aren't chasing bm as much as we believe. In fact, I think bm are the third choice for them.
Bm do not have the same race loyalty to bw as they do to them.
On the other hand, I don't believe that bm chase ww as much as we think.
Remember, the numbers show that bw get the least responses, it doesn't say that we get little or no responses.
Re the kind of bw wm like? From what I HAVE SEEN, the more slender you are, the more attention you get from them.
I'm not going to accept a man in my life that had lowered-expectations for me in the first place. If you do, goody for you.
It would piss me off royally to know he was attracted to me superficially.
What lowered expectations? Dude completed a profile, probably without really considering whether he was interested in dating IR or not, then came across a woman he found attractive and went for it. Where are the lowered expectations. I know it's hard to believe but most men simply aren't THAT deep. They're not doing a whole lot of soul-searching, etc... when it comes to finding a woman attractive.
As for being attracted to you 'superficially,' GOOD GRIEF. All men are attracted to women (or other men) SUPERFICIALLY. If you really think most men are hitting on women based on anything other than physical attraction you clearly know very little about male/female dating/mating habits.
Sorry, what I meant is how good looking does a black woman have to be for white man to accept dating her? Beyonce, Kerry Washington type of looks?
I have no idea where this idea spawned from. I think women of all attractiveness levels can date/mate IR if they're so inclined.
But, laromana...
such a site may have to adopt the same policies/problems that some clubs have when it comes to maintaining single man vs. single woman ratios, ala "Ladies' nights"/lower covers for women, except the other way around, to stay viable and retain black female customers.
Racially, I've heard of it happening in clubs where gay Asian men come to meet gay white men. There's a premium on white men because supply of interested Asian men outstrips demand, so the access of Asian men has to be artificially restricted (often to the most attractive minority clubgoers) in order to maintain equal ratios.
In the IR sites/groups I've seen, the supply of interested black women generally outnumbers the supply of interested non-black men, so how would a site -- especially a site with the extensive male-targeted pruning mechanisms that you propose -- deal with the resulting low supply of men, especially since most of the non-black men who are interested in dating black women aren't interested in them as intensely or exclusively as a site like that would demand. Also, younger men, who are more likely to be okay with IRs, are unlikely to sign up explicitly for the goal of being in serious relationships with anyone. They may get involved in serious relationships, but it's not going to be their first priority at all.
"It would piss me off royally to know he was attracted to me superficially."
Or because he thinks that you're "not like the others," or that refusing to exclude black women publicly on his profile will sully his image when pursuing other races of women.
Ladies, deep dark secret. Most men aren't reading women's profiles AT ALL. How do I know this? I've encountered too many guys who've told me that they go strictly by the picture on the site. One friend said she specifically said NO WHITE GUYS and a white guy (later her husband) responded. When she asked why he'd done it he told her he hadn't read her profile so didn't see it.
Back in the Dark Ages when I placed my ad there were no pictures. My profile started with 'Thinking Man's Sex Symbol.' According to my husband most guys saw the word 'sex' and hit reply. Didn't matter what the context was.
So, if dude isn't reading your profile do you think he's paying a helluva lot of attention to what he puts in his? Remember, male attractiveness is basically below the belt. Sorry to be crass, but that's the way it is. I doubt very seriously that they're not checking the black box for fear of offending other women. Again, guys just aren't that deep. They're not checking black because when not presented with an actual black woman it's not something that would occur to them. MEN DON'T THINK IN THE ABSTRACT. MEN ARE ALL ABOUT THE CONCRETE. They deal with the here and now. If you don't understand that you're bound to be in for a lot of hurt and pain.
I'm not sure why black women have this notion in their heads that they need men of other races who are attracted to 'black women.' No, you don't. You need a man who is attracted TO YOU. And yes, it will be mostly physical.
Oftentimes there's a world of difference between what a man thinks and what a man does. When asked in the abstract, Would you date a black woman? Many would probably say no. But when presented with an attractive woman in the concrete it's a totally different story. Again, it's all about how the data is collected. Men are all about the visual. Don't go philosophical show them pictures and then ask them if they'd hit on her. That's what it's all about, and unless data is collected this way it's bound to miss the mark every time.
I agree Roslyn.
My husband told me the 1st thing he noticed about me was my ass. Our love is based on more than my ass, but physical attractiveness does count in whether or not men approach you. They aren't going to take the time to get to know and love your personality if you are missing teeth and dress like the cafeteria lunch lady and you aren't working the lunch line.
I just wanted to comment on the "what type of BW garner interest from other races" question.
Just flipping through the odd media site video on BW/other race couples, it has struck me that the BW in these relationships are actually quite varied. They are-dark skinned, light-skinned, something in-between, afro'd, pressed, corn-rowed, braided, thin, fat, short, tall, broad-featured, narrow-featured. They are from all walks of life.
These videos are nothing more than anecdotal evidence, but the pictures in these types of vids are contributed by the couples themselves. That, in conjunction with the BW/other race couples my partner and I know, leads me to believe that Black women don't have to be of a "type" to garner TRUE interest.
And by TRUE, I mean the type of interest that can eventually lead to marriage, or a desire to form a lifelong partnership.
Men who say: "Sure, I like Black women", and then cite as proof a list of famous women like Halle Berry (post nose-job), Alicia Keyes, and other mixed-race or closer-to-European women, are generally, I find, not the type of men who would actually want to form a family with a Black woman. They're interested in bedding the "Other", but that's about it.
The dynamic is different in non-American countries, from my experience. I have found that in Germany and Sweden, for instance, the more quintessentially "Black African" a woman is (dark skin, highly textured hair, etc.), the more she is desired. But that is probably correlated to those countries' low populations of Blacks in general. There's still an exotic quality associated with those of African descent.
Of course, the latter is merely from my experience.
'The true White population may go down somewhat--but they will still be the majority--you will just have more Hispanics especially, who will be able to identify as simply white'.
They will become 'white' like the Irish, Italian, Jews etc. Whiteness is a social construct based upon power and self-perceived superiority.
Roslyn & Siditty,
I find women who were never appreciated for their looks, tend to be the first people who jump into these 'relationships' because someone FINALLY approved of their appearance.
The thing is, once men are done approving of your ass, what the hell else is there to talk about?
I guess it's what you're attracted to...
I tend to like free-thinking intellects who are smart enough to see there is a sensuality beyond the exterior.
I think black women who feel confident in their beauty are chronically alone, because they demand men like them for reasons OTHER than the obvious.
I don't believe all men are the same. I'm not the same as other women, so why should I stereotype men? Shouldn't I have higher expectations for myself and for men?
And why should I concern myself with what men want? I don't care in all honesty. They should be concerned with what I want, my standards, what I'm willing to accept and not accept as a WOMAN.
Christ...it's clear to me black women have got it backwards, and they want me to join this madness...
"Bm do not have the same race loyalty to bw as they do to them."
Nor are black women as loyal as they claim to be.
I was discussing this with my husband earlier today and I realized something. There's nothing wrong with black women having high standards. Wanting an "educated professional" is great. Getting one, even better. However, I notice many of the women who want these men simply don't meet their own standard. All of these black women want a Barack, and only a percentage of them are "Michelles".
I get the feeling that black women are so damned entitled to everything. Yes, white women have more opportunities to match with similar men, but that's assuming that they all come from educated, middle class backgrounds. They don't. There's this "grass is greener" mentality that blacks have towards whites and it's kind of ridiculous. A lot of these white women (educated or not) marry blue collar guys. Some of them balding, some of them chubby, some not very attractive. White women find a partner who makes a steady living or has the potential to do so. I could not picture a black woman being content as a SAHM married to a welder or delivery truck driver. Oh no. We have to drive a BMW, wear designer clothes, go to the "beauty shop".
Let's face it, the problem isn't that nobody wants black women. The problem is they want EVERYTHING.
I thought I'd add this:
Not to say that there aren't plenty of equally shallow white women. I lived with them in the dorms for 4 years. They came to college to get their MRS degrees, and made no bones about it. I guess that's why I can accept it more. They didn't do it under the same "independent, educated, strong woman" guise that many young, black women do. If you prefer to live in The Neighborhood, drive The Car, and wear The Clothes work towards it on your own. Don't expect a man to be able to match it, and don't get mad when you find yourself alone in advanced age having waited for one.
I find women who were never appreciated for their looks, tend to be the first people who jump into these 'relationships' because someone FINALLY approved of their appearance.
The thing is, once men are done approving of your ass, what the hell else is there to talk about?
Interesting, I'm not sure why you felt the need to insult me, but that's okay. For the record, my husband and I have managed to find something to talk about for twelve years now. Considering that we're both intelligent and well-read we rarely lack intellectual stimulation. No matter how intelligent a man is, his initial attraction will be physical. That's not generalization, that's biology. When all is said and done we're still primates and there's no overcoming that.
I think black women who feel confident in their beauty are chronically alone, because they demand men like them for reasons OTHER than the obvious.
Actually I'm quite confident in my beauty, it's been my experience that women who truly have confidence in their beauty have no problem with others appreciating same. It would seem to indicate a serious lack of self-esteem to have a problem with people who find you attractive. Most peculiar.
As for wanting you to join me in anything, nothing could be further from the truth. I wouldn't know you if I ran you over in a Wal-Mart parking lot, but this post indicates that you're a nasty piece of work.
Meme,
The BW dating site I proposed WASN'T LIMITED to WM.
QUALITY MEN of ALL RACES, AGES, CLASSES, NATIONALITIES,COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN etc. who would be OPEN to a SERIOUS relationship and/or MARRIAGE with BW would be encouraged to join. I'm stresseing being OPEN to a SERIOUS relationship with a BW to distinguish them from men who ONLY want to USE BW for sex.
I (and other BW like me) have encountered MANY men who find me attractive and establish a "casual" relationship with me but REFUSE to move on to a more SERIOUS DATING relationship or MARRIAGE, SOLEY because I AM BLACK.
Also, just because a guy is younger doesn't mean he wouldn't be interested in marriage. I've been surprised at how young many men are today when they marry for the first time.
Hawkmom, you can't be serious?
Why do people such as yourself try to make black women sound evil for wanting a little luxury?!?
And sooooo what if black women don't want to marry a blue collar man!?
However, I notice many of the women who want these men simply don't meet their own standard. All of these black women want a Barack, and only a percentage of them are "Michelles".
So you are (laughingly) implying that most black men are Baracks, but only a few black women are Michelles?
"Let's face it, the problem isn't that nobody wants black women. The problem is they want EVERYTHING."
The REAL PROBLEM is that EVERYONE feels they can just make GENERALIZATIONS about ALL BW and that will MAGICALLY ERASE the REAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that MOST BW face when they look for men of ALL RACES, OCCUPATIONS, NATIONALITIES, etc. who will pursue them for SERIOUS relationships and MARRIAGE.
Wow at Hawkmom. You are just dripping with disdain for other black women in your little tirades, one wonders why you even bother visiting a blog frequented by them. You prattle on about bw and their entitlement issues whilst they outperform bm in school and at work and then get pressured to date ex-cons and garbage men if they don't want to be alone. I am sure you, too, could have found a black man, had you lowered YOUR sense of entitlement. Sorry to say but your posts are some of the most flagrant hypocrisy I have ever seen.
"refusing to exclude black women publicly on his profile will sully his image when pursuing other races of women."
I never consider that as a possibility; but it does make sense.
I can easily imagine a white, Asian or Hispanic woman on a dating site ignoring a white man (or even contacting him and giving him grief) because he had the gall to include Black women as one of his dating choices.
I find women who were never appreciated for their looks, tend to be the first people who jump into these 'relationships' because someone FINALLY approved of their appearance.
Yes you figured it out Anon, I was ugly as all get out and just took the 1st man that offered up a relationship. I know this might shock you, but he wasn't my first marriage proposal, but it was the 1st one I said yes to. He wasn't my first boyfriend, and I know I am not a supermodel, but I was steady dating men before my husband. So I didn't feel the need to "jump into" a relationship because I was so down trodden and ugly as you seem to assume.
The thing is, once men are done approving of your ass, what the hell else is there to talk about?
Did I not say that my marriage is based on more than my ass. After ten years that stuff goes out the window. I know this is baffling, but relationships EVOLVE over time. I think he has found more than my ass to like in the last ten years.
I tend to like free-thinking intellects who are smart enough to see there is a sensuality beyond the exterior.
Yes my husband is a shallow ass clown incapable of thought with the IQ if a slug because he is attracted to certain physical aspects of my body.
I think black women who feel confident in their beauty are chronically alone, because they demand men like them for reasons OTHER than the obvious.
Yes the beautiful people are always alone. The ugly ones are the only folks pairing off.
nd why should I concern myself with what men want? I don't care in all honesty. They should be concerned with what I want, my standards, what I'm willing to accept and not accept as a WOMAN.
So relationships are all about you and your needs? Men have needs and wants as well. A relationship is give and take and compromise, that is just how it works. Two individuals coming together can only work, if both parties cater to each other.
Christ...it's clear to me black women have got it backwards, and they want me to join this madness...
Yes we are all ass backwards and miserable.
No where did anyone say to start dressing like Lil Kim and put out like there is no tomorrow. What we said is that essentially most men are visual creatures. Yes, initially they might be physically attracted to you, but it evolves into something more as a relationship progresses. Most men on the first date are not thinking about what their kids with you will look like. They are trying to figure out what you look like naked.
Most black women place just about everything that is wrong with the world on white men. Do black women have a longer lasting and more hated enemy than white men? It's really no mystery why there are so few bw and wm-they are both in different camps.
---
That's only true mostly with American Black women. There are PLENTY of African and West Indian women, both in the US and abroad, who (along with most AW) worship the very ground WM walk on.
Hawkmom,
Either you are under the impression you are a magical negro "different from the others" or a troll. No body can be that depreciating to a group of people they supposedly belong to. It is one thing to criticize, it is another to blatantly stereotype and insult.
White women are shallow. Black women go to college to get their degree, white women are the ones who came up with the concept of a Mrs. degree, not black women. I grew up with white women whose goal in life was to be a housewife. But there are tons of working, professional white women who do not go out and find the first welder they meet. They tend to marry working, professional men, the problem is with black women is when we expect the same,it as seen as wanting too much and as you put it, "wanting everything". Wanting someone on the same level as you shouldn't be seen as wanting too much. Now if you work at Burger King and expect to marry a surgeon, that is one thing, but if you are a surgeon, why should you be expected to date the man at the Jiffy Lube?
Hawkmom your logic is bullshit. I think you feel you are the magical negro. Now poof begone.
However, you and I both know it applies to a vast majority. To pretend otherwise doesn't really make things better.
Does willfully pigeonholing ourselves lead to a solution? How do you know it's a "vast majority"? If you didn't have access to the mainstream media would you have the same view? If the answer is yes, I think you need to look at your environment.
@Siditty
How can you accuse me of stereotyping when you're doing the exact same thing to me? Your assumption is that if I were truly a black woman I wouldn't dare say anything critical of other black women. We are individuals, as you and I both have acknowledged ad nauseum. Why is black female individualism only valid when it supports your views? This is especially irritating, because I've said time and again that I am describing some, not ALL, black women.
Anyway, I didn't come to your blog to cause trouble. I actually like the back and forth going on here. What I do *not* like is having my ethnicity questioned all because I don't fall in line with the majority views on these topics.
Considering the media images and actual behaviors of other black women I've seen, I doubt I would be interested in them, either.
You need to leave those black women alone, or better yet ask yourself why those are the only black women you choose to surround yourself with. Just because it is on BET doesn't make it true. I know I have had to explain this to white people, but I have a hard time doing it for someone who claims to be black.
Say what you will about white women, but they get and stay married at much higher rates than we do.
Yes and when they do marry they are not expected to be married to someone who isn't going to take care of their kids and who doesn't work, but yet black women are expected to settle for this? Why?
You're actually proving my point. I've made it very clear - several times - that I understand not all black people are like this.
But you are saying the majority are, and if the majority of people YOU CHOOSE to surround yourself with are like this, you have to look at yourself and wonder why you are around those types of people.
I have trouble with the black "elites" and the bourgeoisie that have all of the advantages and still behave like chimps.
Confirmation of your trolling. Referring to other blacks as chimps is suspect. No one expected you to be holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the campfire with all the other black folks, but I also find it strange you feel the need to stereotype people who look like you. There is no sisterhood, not when we have people like you going around trying to prove to the world that what they see on television must be true. Maybe the black people you are around are idiots, maybe you should stop hanging around idiots. I have met idiots of all races and try to avoid all of them like the plague. Just because someone shares the same skin color as you, does not mean they should embarrass you. Do you get embarrassed when white people act like idiots? Or do you go off assuming all white people must be that way?
Christ, cholesterol, and crime are three traits that are most prevalent among Black Americans.
Most black people can bond over crime and Christ? Wow. I live in the Bible Belt so I get a much different perspective of Christ and Christianity. There are TONS of white Christians all around me. I also find it odd you say this on a blog ran by an atheist, as well as knowing at least one other commenter on this blog, also a black woman is also an atheist. Maybe we're magical negroes because we don't commit crime or believe in God, but I didn't think we bonded over atheism or committing crimes.
There is a large swathe of Black America that doesn't fit into Black stereotypes. We aren't religious, we dislike Tyler Perry, we're not fans of hip-hop/rap, we disagree with Affirmative Action, we don't speak ebonics, we think Jackson and Sharpton should sit down and keep quiet--- hell, some of us even vote Republican or Independent and didn't vote for Obama (oh horrors!). We value education, we work hard, we're decent people.
So black Republicans are vastly different than black Democrats and the political affiliation makes them pay taxes, work hard, value education, and hope Jesse and Al sit down. As if black "liberals" or other blacks do not do this. I am glad you can package up how "most of us" are. I can't do that. I know uber liberals who are extremely religious. My father is a hardcore Democrat and a Gideon, I know many hard working black people of all political and cultural persuasions. Most the black people I know don't enjoy hip hop or rap. I dislike Tyler Perry, but I'm not a Republican, and believe it or not I come from a family that values education and hard work. I know crazy. Many of the black people I am around do. I grew up where most of the black folks I did know were educated and employed.
I think one of the biggest problems within Black America is that it's taboo to say anything negative about Blacks.
No it is taboo to negatively stereotype and treat blacks as if they are some large monolith of single group thought. It's annoying, and we don't do this to other races of people, why should we do it to ourselves? I don't assume all white people live in trailer parks or enjoy country music, why should I assume most blacks enjoy committing crime and going to church?
black women our day is coming...
HawkMom,
I don't think anyone would disagree with you that there are issues that disproportionately affect black Americans and you should never have your ethnicity questioned for pointing that out.
The problem is with your delivery. Calling people "chimps" is not constructive criticism, but I'm sure you know that.
It's not my nor your responsibility to ensure that all (or even most!) black people live up to a personal standard. You would see that chip on your shoulder fall right off as soon as you realize that.
I've read the thread up and down a few times to make sure and at no point did Ronia or I claim that ALL blacks behave foolishly. We've both specifically noted MOST. I don't know you personally, Siditty. I haven't presumed anything about you, so defending yourself and your relatives isn't really necessary. If I'm incorrect in my view that most blacks are flashy, reckless, and superficial then you are in your assertion that most of us are strong, humble, and intelligent. Neither of us has met every single black American, so this argument - on both our parts - is pretty moot.
As for the troll accusations, I guess you'll just believe what you want. I really don't know a white person who would create an online profile and several blog entries under a black woman's persona, lie in wait for months, and suddenly decide to go around harassing black women on the web for kicks. I don't doubt such pathetic fools exist, but I'm surely not one of them. I just enjoy conversations like these and there aren't many black people in this area to have them with me.
So I said "chimps"? I've been called much worse by the "bruthas and sistahs". One of my best friends is a black Muslim (NOT Nation of Islam or a five-percenter). We use the term "coonery" to describe the likes of Soulja Boy and Akon. A mutual friend of ours is Liberian and was a child soldier. He's equally astounded by the behavior of many American blacks, especially considering that the poorest blacks here are still much better off than he was back there.
Yes you figured it out Anon, I was ugly as all get out and just took the 1st man that offered up a relationship. I know this might shock you, but he wasn't my first marriage proposal, but it was the 1st one I said yes to. He wasn't my first boyfriend, and I know I am not a supermodel, but I was steady dating men before my husband. So I didn't feel the need to "jump into" a relationship because I was so down trodden and ugly as you seem to assume.
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Wow, Siditty, I didn't make any of these assumptions about you. They were my observations in studying other black women over the years. Overly accommodating black women tend to be unattractive and get pregnant or marry the first person that comes along. No it's not scientific or anything, but I've seen it enough to establish a trend.
Did I not say that my marriage is based on more than my ass. After ten years that stuff goes out the window. I know this is baffling, but relationships EVOLVE over time. I think he has found more than my ass to like in the last ten years.
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But still you settled for a man who thought more of your ass, than you. I'm sorry Siditty...you're not going to convince me your husband didn't regard you in the same manner as hottentot venus. Am I supposed to see your anecdote as something to aspire to if I want to be in a loving relationship?
Yes the beautiful people are always alone. The ugly ones are the only folks pairing off.
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You kid me on this, but I will say, unattractive people (or people who perceive themselves as unattractive) generally try harder than attractive people. It's just a fact. I don't like being a stereotype, so I REFUSE to try harder than any other group of women simply because I'm black. You don't get it. I DON"T DESERVE LESS BECAUSE I AM BLACK AND FEMALE. I shouldn't have to lower my standards. I shouldn't have to go cloyingly to some man and beg for their affection. It's unfortunate, but I see this behavior all the time in black women, and I REFUSE to grovel for affection. It's because so many black women look for love 'on their bellies', the vast majority of the male population doesn't put any real effort into pursuing black women with conviction, passion and authority. I'm fucking tired of it.
So relationships are all about you and your needs? Men have needs and wants as well. A relationship is give and take and compromise, that is just how it works. Two individuals coming together can only work, if both parties cater to each other.
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I'm all for sharing. I grew up with two parents who shared everything, so I know exactly what that looks like. This is what creates frustration in me, because I see black women giving so much of themselves away, because most likely they grew up in a single female parent home, and they they believe black women should be selfless martyrs. Always fucking giving...without knowing if the person will give back to them.
I believe men should be generous TO ME. And demonstrate this until I'm satisfied that he is someone worthy of my attention.
They are trying to figure out what you look like naked.
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I'm doing the same thing. I hate male/female stereotypes. Women are visual too. At least I am. I like candy.
@Harmony
I don't think black women are evil for wanting luxury. I think black women are selling themselves short, waiting for a man who can provide it. "Baracks" are extremely rare. Meanwhile, most black women seem to be clamoring for one. I say, cut your losses. Find a guy who you love and who loves you back and make it work. Weeding out potential suitors based on educational background and income level are what have many black women in the middle-aged and unmarried rut they in now. If you want luxury, fine, but when you're lonely waiting for the rare black man who can make it happen, while turning up your nose at others, I can't really feel bad for you.
@ laromana
The anti black woman racism isn't completely unfounded. You do have to take into consideration that no matter how composed and cultured *you* may be, you are way outnumbered. Look at the images of us in pop culture. We're either the matronly sage, the sexual conquest, or the non-threatening/mildly attractive sidekick. Take a stroll through your local mall. If you were a man whose only impression of black women were the unflattering stereotypes in your area and on TV, would you consider "wifing" any of those women? I think instead of being angry at them for not giving us a chance, we should be angry at the skanks who ruin it for the rest of us. Things won't change for us until they change within us (*rolls eyes* I know, I know...).
@Yanmommasaid
No disdain for black women. Disdain for badly behaved black women who make unreasonable demands and sully my reputation. I'm not a hypocrite for having married a white man. I knew what kind of man I wanted to marry and most of the men who fit that mold happen to be white. I wasn't seeking him out, nor did I expect to live a certain lifestyle. I wanted a soulmate and that's what I found. Being in an IR marriage - with a child - is hardly glamorous and fun. We are treated terribly by both races, and even by some relatives. Nobody would choose this life unless they had the right intentions.
As we all know, every minority group out there has a dating website. Presumably those who are specifically seeking people of their own race would be more likely to post on those sites. People who are specifically seeking out white partners are more likely to go to a majority or white site.
This wouldn't be true of whites. Presumably they would go to a majority site to find others like themselves. (I assume that white power types also have their own. I haven't seen them, but I'm sure they're out there.) Unlike the minorities they might or might not be open to dating out, but it's not a first priority for them. Those whites who are primarily interested in dating out would presumably seek out the numerous interracial or minority sites out there.
So what you have is a data set that is majorly skewed toward white and gives the impression that white is the most wanted. And while that may well be true, I doubt that it is in the percentages shown in those numbers. I think in order to see dating/mating preferences we'd have to have a much more randomized sample from all the various minority sites as well as the majority sites. I think that would render a much truer picture.
Roslynholcomb
I think you have a point, however if a Black person has unconventional interests or is already comfortable mingling with White people, i.e. the majority, then it would not occur to them to self select themselves out of mainstream dating website that is populated with mostly White people. They may believe perhaps erroneously that based on physical attraction, education, and class levels that they are on equal footing with White, Asian and Hispanic members. When it becomes obvious that response rates don’t mirror that assumption, some Black women may question their attraction level and the dearth in response, especially when as you noted men are more likely to select based purely on the photo. If some Black women notice moderately attractive to plain women getting a wealth of responses compared to themselves, its stands to reason that the conclusion would be that Whites are not selecting them because of race. Also, non white sites i.e. IR often have numbers that skew toward non-White, especially Black themed IR sites. Thus it stands to reason that a Black women who is IR minded may select a mainstream website to increase her chances.
Moreover, as you have inferred, humans are creatures of habit and they tend to stay within their own cultural and racial mores, but being a minority you have to be enterprising, especially if you do not conform to the negative stereotypes that are foisted upon you. Non-White people have made themselves available to white people in overabundance and will even conform their world view to retain that accessibility. So of course White people are in a position of power because they have a huge selection pool of which to choose from. The odds still favor White people and thus they can afford to be very picky.
Thus I think the conclusions from the data, barring the provocative title, is essentially correct. And I think that as another poster put, this data would certainly be reflected in other sites but wouldn’t be broadcasted because they may lose minority memberships.
Your point about physical attraction, in regards to men though is dead on.
They realize this and it goes to their heads, then they think they're too good for "us" and get a white woman, which makes "us" feel betrayed. It's dumb.
LOL. For a lot of Black men just being employed and/or not having a criminal record makes them too good for Black women...and lots of Black women seem to agree.
@Dark Moon, I'm not suggesting that anyone self-select, after all I met my husband on Yahoo! and most of my friends who online dated met their partners on mainstream sites as well. I simply pointed out that the data for this particular study is skewed towards minorities who have a preference for dating IR. And that's actually a fairly small percentage of minority groups. Any number of studies have shown that most people prefer to date within their own racial groups.
So basically if you go onto a mainstream site and don't get the responses that you are hoping for, it probably has little to do with your attractiveness or lack thereof. And if you want to see otherwise it would probably be a good idea to place your ad on a site skewed toward your own racial/cultural demographic as well.
I think it's a good idea to go in knowing what you're dealing with. No matter how bleak the numbers are they are still in favor simply by the sheer force of numerical imbalances. There are only 15 million black American women. There are roughly 150 million men. Even if fewer than 10% would be interested in a serious relationship, that would still leave one man for every black woman. And we all know that all black women aren't interested in dating/mating IR. And when you throw in international men...well, you get the picture. There's nothing to be glum about. Get in where you fit it.
Ugh Hawkmom. Now you are a martyr for being in an IR marriage? No, still just a magical negro who eagerly paints most black women (i.e. all others except herself) with the most unflattering stereotypes because she so relishes being "different" "not like the others" and somehow more honorable because she was not driven to IR in the quest for a mate of comparable quality, but because of a cultural mismatch with other blacks ("but you other black women better settle for any man who would have you"). Please.
Also, it is a nice fantasy that so many bw remain single due to overreaching standards and not to the fact that many of these non-degreed, blue collar-job-working or no-job-working black men are quite deliberate in not marrying anyone.
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Anonymous, not sure why you are so peeved by what Siditty and Roslyn said about attractiveness. Obviously their marriages would not have lasted as long as they have if they were predicated upon nothing other than physical attraction. You really think a man would still be enthralled solely
with a woman's backside ten years later?
The point was, men aren't going to look for your winning personality and virtues if they don't get initially pulled in by the outer package. And no one said you can't have your own requirements for a man's physical appearance. I know I sure as heck do!
If you don't care to answer the ads of men who have Anything But Black profiles, don't! I was always suspicious of those guys. No one is saying you have to throw away your standards for a guy...except for CrockMom.
*I happen to get along better with ghetto people than "the elites" for some reason. Ghetto black women, in particular. I can't explain it, but they don't give me any trouble. Their behavior is a result of their lack of education and poverty. I understand that. I have trouble with the black "elites" and the bourgeoisie that have all of the advantages and still behave like chimps. Those are the ones that frustrate and embarrass me.
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Yep! It's to be expected that ghetto Negroes will act like chimps, but even upperclass Negroes "STILL behave like chimps" -- obviously, behaving like chimps just comes naturally to blacks, as nothing can breed it out of us. A chimp who can identify a salad fork is still a chimp.
A strange mind-set for someone who claims to be Black...but, then again, she's obviously a SPECIAL chimp; one who has managed to imitate human (read: white) mannerisms with a fair degree of accuracy. Tsk, tsk. It's a pity that such a magnificent chimp such as yourself is categorized as "Black" the same as us lowly, lice-munching knuckle-draggers. (Do you still ride your unicycle?)
Yanmommasaid - Hardly martyring myself. Just telling it like it is. I'm happy and that's all that matters, anyway.
I do find it interesting that in proving how different *you* are, you're still playing into the stereotype. I say something that you find disagreeable, so you respond by being combative and sassy. I'm out of line for describing ill-behaved people as "chimps", while it's perfectly fine to write me off as a "magical Negro"?
I joined the NAACP at age 14, and had always been proud of my affiliation with the group. However, the more conversations I have with so-called enlightened "black folk", I just want to rip up my membership card and say to hell with it all. This "Woe is me" mentality is going to be the death of us.
I think what HawkMom is saying is that too many Black women are waiting to be provided for, rather than providing for themselves.
I don't think any one should "lower" their standards, but I do think there are too many women (of ALL races) who are waiting for a man who will care FOR them, rather than searching for a man who will care ABOUT them. I hope the distinction is clear.
I also think that this issue is especially difficult to navigate for Black women, who are outstripping Black men in terms of education and socioeconomic advancement (there are more "Michelles" than "Baracks" among American Blacks).
There are Black women who want a Black mate of comparable academic/socioeconomic achievement (and there is nothing wrong with that), but the number of Black men who fill this role isn't growing in pace with that of Black women.
So:
The women who "simply won't" broaden their pool of potential mates by dating IR are limiting themselves, and thus have no one but themselves to blame when they wind up alone.
There is also a stigma against a woman "marrying down", which I think prevents many Black women from finding a suitable partner. I also think that if more women, particularly Black women, were a little more willing to adjust their standards, they'd be more able to find a suitable mate.
Note I said "adjust", which is not the same as "lower". If a woman's standard is that a potential mate must be a Surgeon, Lawyer, or Rocket Scientist, she's going to have a tougher time finding a mate than if her standard is that a potential mate must be financially sturdy, and productive and successful at his chosen career.
Not interested in dating the man working the counter at McDonald's? I get that. But what is really so undesirable about the skilled mechanic or the air traffic controller (highly paid jobs, by the way) if they are capable of giving you what you desire romantically?
Just my two cents.
No one is saying you have to throw away your standards for a guy...except for CrockMom.
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Ol' Croc doesn't think very highly of us chimps, oops, I mean Black women. It's no wonder she's encouraging us to snatch up anything with testes that would have us.
At the end of the day, I am seeking a non-bm who meets my standards. How that will happen? Who knows.
Like someone mentioned earlier, I am not too fond of the idea of online dating. I do believe that there is a good percentage who feel the same way too.
I know what's in my heart and how I feel. That is what will lead me to a mate. Not "data" and not ramblings of someone who seems so set on deterring me from my hearts' desire.
Way, way to many holes in this "study" to take anything from it. The demographics are not in line with goes on offline. For instance there are more Black men (over 27,000) then there are Black women (over 20,000) even though in the "real world" there are more Black women per Black men. Also there are more Asians (over 53,000) vs Blacks (over 47,000) even though Asians make up only about 3.5% of the population and Blacks make up about 12-13%.
Black women reply to Asian men more than they do to Black men in this study, but in the real world how many Black women/Asian men couples you see versus Black men/Black women? Not even close.
There are more males than females in this study, and more White males than White females which hurts non-White males looking to date IR on this site as it gives the White females the power of choice allowing them to be extra selective. In the real world there are more females than males, and more White females than White males, which helps non-White males looking to date White females as there are not enough White males to go around.
I could go on and on but you get the idea as the "study" does not address so many other factors like geography (West Coast vs. Deep South), other demographic info, or even the state of mind of why someone would post an online ad (too high expectations, fear of meeting people in the real world, looking for something new and exciting, etc).
This "study" does confirm a few of my suspicians, white men are the most desired species on the planet,
But the "study" doesn't say that. Pacific Islander Men have a higher reply rate than White men in 5 of the 9 categories (Black women, Indian, Middle Eastern, Other and Pacific Islander). In one of the categories that White men receive more replies than Pacific Islanders (Native American Women), he is tied for 3rd. White men only receive the most replies from Asian, Latinas and White Women. And since White women make up most of the women in the study (288,000 out of the 388,000) and they prefer White men, of course the numbers are going to skew to favor White men.
Which begs the question why does the title hate on White guys? White women in this study are the least likely to date out and Black women are receiving the least replies from all men, not just White men. Black women have the worst or the 2nd worst reply rate in every category and worst by a wide margin in a few cases. The least likliest to reply is an Asian man, followed by White men and Pacific Islander men.
I think someone somewhere has an axe to grind with White guys and is using this study to do it.
Which begs the question why does the title hate on White guys?--Truth
I totally agree. I think it all boils down to the fact that white men are seen as racist no matter what they do. It's not fair, they should be allowed to prefer their own just like everyone does. They should also be allowed to be stick up for white men without being called racist. White men do protest too much, though. People are afraid of white male racial assertiveness for a good reason...history. We don't live in the past though. I've gotten to the point where I feel wm have just as much of a right to a million man march as black men do. We will just have to get over our fears of them like we want them to get over their angst against us.
On the flip side, white men are in fact the most desired of all humans. Women are more likely to want to exclusively date them than any other group of men. As a woman, I see it in other non-black women of color and white women. I also think that women are much worse and rigid when it comes to this.
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I think it's a good idea to go in knowing what you're dealing with. No matter how bleak the numbers are they are still in favor simply by the sheer force of numerical imbalances. There are only 15 million black American women. There are roughly 150 million men.--Rosalyn
That's what people need to realize. Think about it, out of that 15 milliion, how many are elderly/teens vs. marriage age? Then, how many of the 15 million are actually interested in IR? How many are like myself, single by choice? How many are lesbians?Further again, how many of the 15 million black women want to date IR exclusively? Once you get there, the numbers are quite small. My point is that bw need to realize that the numbers are in our favor. No need to get depressed over "studies" like this. Are black men depressed over the fact that they are not at the top of the list of most women? No, and they shouldn't be.
Black women also need to realize a few other things but you didn't hear it from me, LOL. Ok, I will say it...while I don't believe that most bw "act like chimps" a small minority of us have been the most vocal in presenting the image of bw...negative sista types. That's why I'm so thankful for black women's empowerment (bwe) blogs...(not strictly the IR blogs although they ARE quite valuable). They are changing the image of bw for the better. I post on various blogs (nonblack and black) and people are noticing bwe blogs. Not surprising that the harsh critics are usually black. To make a long story short, it's in our hands to change our image.
HawkMom,
The one with something to prove is you. I never put on any airs of superiority in anything I wrote. If you find my simply disagreeing with you to be "combative and sassy", well that's more a function of your intense dislike for other black women. The insulting display you have put on here is neither "telling it like it is" nor "taking the high road". I'm glad you are happy, however, despite living "a life no one would choose". Unless they had the right intentions, that is.
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Meme,
You can say that black women can't afford to do the same because we're not presented with the same type/amount of options, but these criteria for consideration are indeed the norm when it comes to other groups, and emulating them would mean retaining those metrics, not discarding them.
Agreed. This is exactly the case. Black women are being chided and mocked for desiring the same things other women demand and routinely get.
How long have you been on OKC? Like most dating sites, I got the most responses the first month or so, but I didn't meet my match until about month 4. Do you have any close guy friends who could review your profile and give you a guy's POV?
"If a woman's standard is that a potential mate must be a Surgeon, Lawyer, or Rocket Scientist, she's going to have a tougher time finding a mate than if her standard is that a potential mate must be financially sturdy, and productive and successful at his chosen career."
I don't think this level of pickiness is all that common.
"But what is really so undesirable about the skilled mechanic or the air traffic controller (highly paid jobs, by the way) if they are capable of giving you what you desire romantically?"
Because a wife may want to talk to him on a regular basis about things that people who have been to college are more likely to be concerned with, and do things with him that educated people are more likely to be interested in. Perhaps that makes these men incapable of giving some educated women what they desire romantically. It isn't all about money. Some of these women who see an education as important will choose a teacher over a self-made business man who makes much more money because of this. Unfortunately, there aren't that many educated black men with low-paying jobs to go around, either.
"Black women have the worst or the 2nd worst reply rate in every category and worst by a wide margin in a few cases."
Yeah... I prefer other minorities, so that's the part that bummed me out. Not that white men aren't receptive to black women, but that no one else seems to be, either.
Most black people can bond over crime and Christ? Wow. I live in the Bible Belt so I get a much different perspective of Christ and Christianity. There are TONS of white Christians all around me. I also find it odd you say this on a blog ran by an atheist, as well as knowing at least one other commenter on this blog, also a black woman is also an atheist. Maybe we're magical negroes because we don't commit crime or believe in God, but I didn't think we bonded over atheism or committing crimes.
A larger percentage of Black Americans report being religious than not. Black Americans are disproportionately responsible for crime in the nation. Black Americans have higher rates of obesity than other races. These are statistical facts that have absolutely nothing to do with whether you or I or Jane Black down the street are thin, atheist, and clear of a criminal record. The point here is, again, that religion, crime, and obesity are traits that are prevalent in Black America. I said, very specifically, that not ALL Black Americans are religious, violent, or overwieght. However, the percentage of individuals who fit these molds among Black Americans is larger than the percentage of those who do not.
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So black Republicans are vastly different than black Democrats and the political affiliation makes them pay taxes, work hard, value education, and hope Jesse and Al sit down. As if black "liberals" or other blacks do not do this. I am glad you can package up how "most of us" are. I can't do that. I know uber liberals who are extremely religious. My father is a hardcore Democrat and a Gideon, I know many hard working black people of all political and cultural persuasions. Most the black people I know don't enjoy hip hop or rap. I dislike Tyler Perry, but I'm not a Republican, and believe it or not I come from a family that values education and hard work. I know crazy. Many of the black people I am around do. I grew up where most of the black folks I did know were educated and employed.
I did not say that Black Republicans are "vastly different" from Democrats. Nor did I say that being a Republican makes one a more upstanding citizen. My point here was that there are Black Americans who do not fit the general Black stereotypes of being Democratic/liberal (the two are not synonymous), agreeing with Jackson and Sharpton, worshiping the Christian God, committing crimes, being lazy, etc. Again, the stereotype is that ALL Blacks fit into a single mode; my point was that there are many Blacks that don't. However, MOST do. That's why the stereotype persists.
And, again, it doesn't matter what you or I or Jane Black find familiar. The Blacks I grew up with were cosmopolitan, wealthy, and highly educated. The same is true of Blacks I know now. However, that doesn't change the fact that a large portion of Black America is afflicted by a cycle of self-defeating behaviour.
No it is taboo to negatively stereotype and treat blacks as if they are some large monolith of single group thought. It's annoying, and we don't do this to other races of people, why should we do it to ourselves? I don't assume all white people live in trailer parks or enjoy country music, why should I assume most blacks enjoy committing crime and going to church?
I did not say all Blacks. In fact, I made a point of reinforcing the fact that I was not speaking of ALL Blacks. I pointed out that Blacks are not a monolith. I went on to say WHY Blacks are treated as a monolith, and that "why" is because a there is a larger percentage of Blacks who possess negative traits.
And yes, we most certainly do stereotype other races in America. All East Asian Americans are not smart or good at math; but because a larger portion have demonstrated academic competence, the stereotype persists that ALL people of East Asian descent are intelligent.
Not all Jews are successful or good at accounting/law, but because a larger portion of Jews have excelled in these areas, the stereotypes persists that ALL Jews are A. highly competent and efficient, or B. greedy Semitic bastards (depending on whom one asks).
The Irish are a particularly fascinating case of stereotyping. Throughout their history in America, they've progressed through stereotypes of laziness, stupidity, alcoholism, and violence to ones in which they are largely characterized by a collective American history of boxing, law enforcement, and willingness to do the grunt work. The evolution of Irish stereotypes is beyond the scope of this conversation, but my point here is:
A. Stereotypes are not formed in a vacuum.
B. Stereotypes are not immutable.
C. Black Americans should not be unfairly stereotyped by the negative behaviour of the group. However, in the real world, individuals are judged by their group affiliation, whether that affiliation is by default or by choice. And if Black Americans are truly frustrated with the myriad of negative stereotypes that have been applied to ALL of us, then we've got to face reality and do something about it.
No, an individual shouldn't assume that any randomly chosen Black will be in possession of a certain trait. However, statistically speaking, the probability that a randomly chosen Black is religious, obese, a criminal, poor, or undereducated is markedly higher than the probability that a randomly chosen Black is not.
"In the real world there are more females than males, and more White females than White males, which helps non-White males looking to date White females as there are not enough White males to go around."
A lot of that is because white men die earlier than their female counterparts. Older women are less likely to date interracially, and I doubt non-elderly non-white males would want to trawl the nursing homes of America for mates, anyway.
I say something that you find disagreeable, so you respond by being combative and sassy.
Simply disagreeing with you is sass? I figure that your rage stemmed from some personal issues, but this quote proves it:
So I said "chimps"? I've been called much worse by the "bruthas and sistahs".
Projecting much?
And this:
Just telling it like it is. I'm happy and that's all that matters, anyway.
It would be helpful for you to let go of the notion that presenting the same old tired stereotypes is somehow "telling it like it is". Your sheltered life experiences are not good support for your arguments.
"Because a wife may want to talk to him on a regular basis about things that people who have been to college are more likely to be concerned with, and do things with him that educated people are more likely to be interested in."
I understand what you're trying to say, but it still seems a bit elitist. What things are people who went to college more likely to be concerned with?
And if Black Americans are truly frustrated with the myriad of negative stereotypes that have been applied to ALL of us, then we've got to face reality and do something about it.
People are individuals and it's not your responsibility to "do something" about their behavior. The only person whose behavior you should be concerned with is your own because the only person who can make you look bad is you. If someone wants to judge you based on your "group affiliation" that's their issue.
General Question:
What is with people and this idea that it is up to us "good blacks" to salvage our racial reputation by forcing others to step in line? The whole idea smacks of elitism and groupthink.
How can you accuse me of stereotyping when you're doing the exact same thing to me? Your assumption is that if I were truly a black woman I wouldn't dare say anything critical of other black women.
No you can be critical of other black women, that isn't why I accuse you of being a troll, I accuse you of such because you are blatantly generalizing, stereotyping, and making huge assumptions that have no factual validity. You can criticize all you want, but referring to people as "chimps" isn't criticizing, it is insulting. Huge difference.
I know I am going to regret this later but Joe Clyde and Truth B Told often come here and criticize black women, but they have never referring to black women as "chimps" to show their disapproval of most black women. Not saying I appreciate and embrace everything they say, they just have a manner of sharing their criticism without blatantly insulting the group they are criticizing.
Why is black female individualism only valid when it supports your views? This is especially irritating, because I've said time and again that I am describing some, not ALL, black women.
No, you said you were talking about a majority.
Anyway, I didn't come to your blog to cause trouble. I actually like the back and forth going on here. What I do *not* like is having my ethnicity questioned all because I don't fall in line with the majority views on these topics.
Again no one is telling you to fall in line and agree with everything here. Hell if anything I welcome diverse opinions. I don't welcome insults and degradation. There is a huge difference.
------------------
I don't think anyone would disagree with you that there are issues that disproportionately affect black Americans and you should never have your ethnicity questioned for pointing that out. The problem is with your delivery. Calling people "chimps" is not constructive criticism, but I'm sure you know that.
Beautifully stated.
-----------------
We've both specifically noted MOST.
That is the problem you think MOST, I don't think MOST black people reflect your opinion.
I really don't know a white person who would create an online profile and several blog entries under a black woman's persona, lie in wait for months, and suddenly decide to go around harassing black women on the web for kicks.
You haven't been hanging here very long. It happens.
We use the term "coonery" to describe the likes of Soulja Boy and Akon. A mutual friend of ours is Liberian and was a child soldier. He's equally astounded by the behavior of many American blacks, especially considering that the poorest blacks here are still much better off than he was back there.
I think you think the majority or most black people are running around trying to imitate Akon (who is Senegalise, so really your Liberian friend should be upset about how he acts) and Souljah Boy, when record sales indicate, it isn't all black people, but rather young white males who embrace the "coonery." I also want to note I have made a couple of posts about american blacks vs. non american blacks and how there seems to be stereotypes on both sides.
People are individuals and it's not your responsibility to "do something" about their behavior. The only person whose behavior you should be concerned with is your own because the only person who can make you look bad is you. If someone wants to judge you based on your "group affiliation" that's their issue.
This is where we have seriously divergent opinions. I believe that any group riddled with self-destructive problems (be they a racial group, a married couple, a project group of students, etc.) should not ignore those issues and look out ONLY for themselves.
Whether we like it or not, we are NOT judged on our own merits. We are judged, first and foremost, by our group identification.
A lot of people fought and died to convince the nation that Blacks are intelligent, capable, worthy--- that we are, in fact, human, and deserving of respect and equitable treatment. And all of that work is being undone at alarming speed by an undesirable element within our ranks. How can you NOT be concerned?
What is with people and this idea that it is up to us "good blacks" to salvage our racial reputation by forcing others to step in line? The whole idea smacks of elitism and groupthink.
This is how I see it--- if Blacks don't want to do anything proactive about the problems in the Black race, then they shouldn't complain when they are stereotyped, maltreated, ignored, and/or undervalued. When any Black looks at the poverty rates, the crime rates, the lack of value for education, and the general internal destruction, and says to themselves, "It's not my responsibility!", then they're just adding to the problem.
The growing racial tension and resentment in this country is worrying. The re-emergence of scientifically based racism, and the embracing of once distasteful mantras of racial determinism, should concern every one.
I firmly believe that we must do for ourselves, or else have done to us.
Is it elitism? Yes, it is. But "elitism" is a misused and sorely abused word. In its purest inception, "elitism" is nothing more than leadership by those who are most capable.
I'm not saying that I, or any one here, fits that particular definition. What I am saying is that, at the moment, the Black race is seen to be headed by idiots and losers, and those of us who know that it's an unfair brand are going to continue to be ignored unless we willingly take hold of the situation and work to improve the overall situation of Blacks.
This is going nowhere, because this has turned into an "I'm right and you're wrong" debate. There is no right or wrong. These are simply our views based on our personal experiences. I'll leave you with this and move on.
- My views aren't based on an insular lifestyle that revolves around what I see on television, nor am I hanging around in gutters. This is what I see...all the time...from blacks across the socioeconomical board. The way you're going after me, it would seem you've ONLY been in the company of intelligent, highly educated, physically fit, atheist blacks and that they are the true majority. If I can't speak for what the majority of us are, then neither can you. For some reason, though, you seem to think you can.
- A lot of people seem to be hung up on the word "chimps". I was describing the erratic behavior of stereotypical blacks, not calling names. I suppose "wild animals" would've been a more diplomatic term? That's how they behave, in my opinion. I've been very careful to stick to the topic and not to insult or make personal attacks, which is more than I can say for you and some of your readers. I'd also like to note that many military wives around here refer to their children as their "little monkeys". Children are often wild and do silly things - like monkeys - so it fits. Would I refer to my biracial child as any kind of primate, in a term of endearment? Not likely. It makes me a tad uncomfortable for obvious reasons, so I do apologize for using such a racially insensitive term. It was taken way too personally here, though.
- As far as Akon and coonery, I'm fully aware of the fact that the rap industry is mostly funded by white male suburbanites' allowances. How does that change the fact that most inner city black males try to emulate the lifestyle? The example you give about whites and hip hop is true. The issue I have, though, is it seems the white kids know when to put those things aside. We don't.
My dad told me about how he used to get high with the college kids who came in to the restaurant where he bussed tables back in the 70s. He noted that the white guys were more often putting their pipes down to make it to class on time, than the black guys would continue to hang and get baked. After watching the white guys graduate and move on to corporate jobs, my dad noted that the black guys would complain about "white privilege" and being held back, all the while continuing to hang. I don't know what's sadder, that the same things are happening decades later or that my peers are trying to pretend it doesn't.
If any women here wants a free critique on their profile. Post it here and I will give you my honest opinion.
@HawkMoon
"Wanting an "educated professional" is great. Getting one, even better. However, I notice many of the women who want these men simply don't meet their own standard. All of these black women want a Barack, and only a percentage of them are "Michelles".
I agree. I think that a lot of people are not taking an honest assessment of themselves.
----------------------------
I find it interesting that When Black women speak of looking for a mate. They say they want a "good" man regardless of race.
But when people speak of the issues that Black women have that could deter them finding a potential partner. These same women say what the problems are with Black men only.
Funny, if you are looking for a many of any race. Why do you only bring up Black men when stating the issues Black women have when selecting a suitable partner??
" don't think any one should "lower" their standards, but I do think there are too many women (of ALL races) who are waiting for a man who will care FOR them, rather than searching for a man who will care ABOUT them. I hope the distinction is clear
WOOOOOOOOw Did anyone else feel that earthquake!!
"It's just a fact. I don't like being a stereotype, so I REFUSE to try harder than any other group of women simply because I'm black. You don't get it. I DON"T DESERVE LESS BECAUSE I AM BLACK AND FEMALE. I shouldn't have to lower my standards. I shouldn't have to go cloyingly to some man and beg for their affection. It's unfortunate, but I see this behavior all the time in black women, and I REFUSE to grovel for affection. It's because so many black women look for love 'on their bellies', the vast majority of the male population doesn't put any real effort into pursuing black women with conviction, passion and authority. I'm fucking tired of it."
I hear you.
It's incredibly frustrating and you feel helpless at times and you find yourself single because you refuse to date the guys who make a half assed effort to get you (read: bed you) and usually those are not my types, i prefer white guys generally and the ones who go after me are black,uneducated and quite frankly, frightening in their aggressive approach.
So what's a girl to do?
Also, it seem like my "type" like darker skinned black girls with more sterotypical "black features" which again, is frustrating.
I wish black women would value themselves a bit more and think of themselves as something worth fighting for, only then would a man feel the same way about us.
I am so tired of being the one who has to try a bit harder, be more outgoing and interesting.
I have done it once and never again, i was physically exhausted afterwards.
I had to give so much of myself! it was like going to a job interview and being extra "perky" extra "fun and interesting" and just giving and giving and giving some more of yourself....at the end you feel like YOU'RE the one doing all the work (which you are)and you end up laying the possible relationship on the floor already: you being the "hunter" and the one wearing the damn pants which isn't at all what you want but it's what you are doing by being the one who does all the work and then you end up resenting the guy because he's not stepping up and being a man. Phew.
I just want to be treated like a woman and someone worth loving and marrying.
I thought i had finally found that guy a few months ago and he literally told me he could see himself marrying me and he was so affectionate and wanted to take things slow and blah blah blah...after that i never heard from him again.
No i didn't try to call him and see what happened, i refuse.
I refuse to be the "desperat black girl who will take anyone as long as he shows some interest in me"
Look, it's simple really, what we want is a guy who wants us as much as we want them.
Isn't that what all girls dream of?
For once, i would like a guy to see me and say "she is the one!" and actively pursue me but nooo i am "lower than the lowest" in the damned "totem pole" and i'm not worth the hassle because i am black, i may be beautiful, but i'm still black and what if the white guy gets a rejection! gasp, a rejection from ME a black girl! infront of his peers perhaps? how embarrassing....
seriously...lol, you have no idea how frustrating it can be.
and i refuse to wear one of those t-shirts, again, i am not sinking that low, i might be alone for the rest of my life but atleast i'll die with my dignity.
@Hawkmom,
Do not assume to know what kind of man I want. I'm not holding out for a black man at all. I'm just tired of people such as yourself who have superiority complexes towards other black women.
General Question:
What is with people and this idea that it is up to us "good blacks" to salvage our racial reputation by forcing others to step in line? The whole idea smacks of elitism and groupthink.
Totally agree. One person here in particular is fond of calling Black men like me "useless" because we choose to do what we can about our situation (e.g. go to school, get a good job, stay out of trouble, live in a safer neighborhood, etc, things most sane and rational men of all other races do).
But since we are not stopping the Bloods and the Crips from killing each other, somehow we are failing in life. Why was going to school good enough for my Black ass, but these wannabe bad ass self-proclaimed niggas are given a pass for "keepin it real"?
Why are Black men who live responsible lives are expected to be responsible for all of the thug droppings, but other races aren't? Private indidvual White men are allowed to seperate themselves from the Hell's Angels, Japanese men from the Yakuza, or Italian men from the Mafia, but Black men are expected to somehow miraculously stop the crimes of other Black men who don't even live in the same neighborhood.
Black men like me don't have a complete and fullproof answer on how to stop things like the Dunbar Village Black rape from happening anymore than White men have an answer for stopping that guy from nabbing Jacey Dugard and keeping her for 18 years or Asian men have for stopping Annie Le from being killed. Crime is as old as humanity and no one has solved it as of yet.
And when Black men like me do try to offer solutions that involve self-control on the part of the people who are doing the ills (like to stop making babies with thugs, reading a book once in a while, stop going to clubs at all hours, to stop excessively worrying about petty issues like hair texture, etc ), we only end up getting dismissed or cursed out or accused of hating or Uncle Toming.
It used to bother me to be accused of "selling out" but not anymore. I am not against helping someone in need, but I refuse to help someone waiting for someone else to do for them when they refuse to do for themselves or even put forth a little effort.
I know I am going to regret this later but Joe Clyde and Truth B Told often come here and criticize black women, but they have never referring to black women as "chimps" to show their disapproval of most black women. Not saying I appreciate and embrace everything they say, they just have a manner of sharing their criticism without blatantly insulting the group they are criticizing.
I would hope I would let no one make me angry enough to do that. I am human and I do have my moments. Ultimately, I don't disapprove of Black women (or any other group). I disapprove of some of the behaviors that many of them display. I don't disapprove of Black men, I disapprove of the BS that is going on (excess crime, nigga mentality, etc). I don't disapprove of Whites, I disapprove of racism. I don't disapprove of Asians...you get the idea.
"I find it interesting that When Black women speak of looking for a mate. They say they want a "good" man regardless of race."
Black women in this subset of the blogosphere say that a lot. Black women in general rarely say this.
"Funny, if you are looking for a many of any race. Why do you only bring up Black men when stating the issues Black women have when selecting a suitable partner??"
Because, as we see here, and from numerous other sources, non-black men who are interested in black women are rather thin on the ground, and so are non-black women who are interested in black men, so our most likely and common marriage partners/dates are going to be one another, if anyone, despite the strong non-black preferences/lack of racial preferences that some black people have. For many of us, finding non-black partners to select from is an issue.
"I agree. I think that a lot of people are not taking an honest assessment of themselves."
You know her statement was hyperbolic. Do you really think there are a lot of black female Wal-Mart cashiers that will settle for nothing less than Harold Ford Jr.? It's not about not dating "up", it's about dating a peer. Barack and Michelle (since we're talking about them, for whatever reason) were peers. If you're the Wal-Mart cashier, the shelf stocker is your Barack. If you're a pharmaceutical sales rep, the shelf stocker isn't your peer, and a refusal to consider him as a potential mate does not mean that you want to be pampered by an oil tycoon.
"What things are people who went to college more likely to be concerned with?"
Well, for one thing, the importance of having kids that go to college and saving/spending the exorbitant amount of money that it takes to get and keep them there.
"And when you throw in international men...well, you get the picture."
I've heard this a lot in many places... is this even feasible? Has anyone here actually "thrown in international men"... not immigrants, but guys who live in other countries?* How does that work?
*I'm assuming that's what Roslyn means, because 150 mil is the male portion of the total U.S. pop, then she implied that international men were in addition to that.
My PERSONAL opinion is that if this survey really reflects the reality of African American women, maybe the only way to change that reality is to redefine the way that African American girls/women enter into relationships and marriage. What I mean is that the reality can only change when the view of African American women changes amongst the group(s) that African American women want to be viewed more favorable in.
Because things like this don't change overnight it could be that there needs to be a concerted effort on the part of concerned AA women, and liked minded people, to change the paradigm. Sometimes studies like this help cement certain concepts simply by causing people to believe the study reflects an acceptable reality. I.e. the study in itself helps in the creation of the stereotype by helping borderline individuals go completely to one side because the study then confirms what they may have considered.
So all of that being said, maybe a response to this is for concerned AA women to create a pro-AA woman image campaign amongst the young of the groups they seek the better approval from. An example of this, when I was in college I joined a fraternity that was not popular at that time, and had not been for a LONG time. When I told some people what my choice was they could not understand why I was supposidly "lowering my standards" yet I saw something in the organization that meant something to me. So over a course of about 2 years several members of the fraternity began a campaign to correct the image of the organization amongst the people we wanted to consider us the best fraternity.
This intelled going out to the completely undecided or those who didn't fit the fraternity norm. Over the course of several years of hard PR work, we were able to change the type of people interested in the fraternity. This opened the door for future members to change the course of history and made the fraternity popular amongst the campus in a way that hadn't been seen in over 3 decades.
Maybe a similar tactic can be used for the groups that AA women desire most to be wanted by, or to have interested in them. Now I note that this for the most part may only be affective in helping younger AA girls in their dating future, but if the reality is changed for future generations that in itself would be a noble effort.
Once again this is my opinion and I could be completely off base.
And when Black men like me do try to offer solutions that involve self-control on the part of the people who are doing the ills (like to stop making babies with thugs, reading a book once in a while, stop going to clubs at all hours, to stop excessively worrying about petty issues like hair texture, etc )--Truth
Now this is the problem right here. It's the reason why bm are increasingly viewed as weak among men. You went on and on about crimes and then you turn around and offer the above as the solution. You allude to placing the responsibility on women. Do you even view bm as men yourself?
Take your stop having babies with thugs reference. I challenge you to provide a stat showing that bw by and large are choosing thugs over "good black men." EVERY SINGLE STAT I'VE SEEN SHOWS THAT BLACK MEN IN GENERAL DATE, MARRY, AND HAVE CHILDREN WITH BW. So using your logic, the majority of bm must be no good thugs since MOST OF THEM are with bw. You may as well throw women of other races in the mix since they are more likely to experience the same pathologies when they have children with bm.
Black men like me don't have a complete and fullproof answer on how to stop things like the Dunbar Village Black rape from happening anymore than White men have an answer for stopping that guy from nabbing Jacey Dugard and keeping her for 18 years or Asian men have for stopping Annie Le from being killed. Crime is as old as humanity and no one has solved it as of yet.--
White and Asian men don't have the answer? If what you are saying is true then why are crime rates MUCH LOWER in their communities than in black constructs? Why do Asian and white young men commit less crime on average than black and latino young men? White people are not the most moral people in the world but they still don't have the same pathologies that blacks do.
Why? Because they don't come up with the same bullshit excuses that blacks generally do (similar to yours)...blame da man, blame black mothers, blame everyone else except those responsible. Here is a newsflash, NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME BUT THE BLACK MALES WHO COMMIT THEM AND THEIR ENABLERS.
My point is, stop worrying about black women who want to better bw (bwe) and focus on bm who are the ones making you look bad.
________________________________
Ehave Ever,
Kudos on all points. BW have to change our image...no one will do it for us and they don't have to.
Now this is the problem right here. It's the reason why bm are increasingly viewed as weak among men. You went on and on about crimes and then you turn around and offer the above as the solution. You allude to placing the responsibility on women.
I am not placing the blame squarely upon Black women or even all Black women, only those who are responsible for the bad behavior. I don't blame childless young Black women who are going to school or working hard and looking to better their lives for the mistakes of other Black women.
Did you not see the part where I wrote, "Why was going to school good enough for my Black ass, but these wannabe bad ass self-proclaimed niggas are given a pass for "keepin it real"?" I am no Black male bad behavior apologist, that is a straw position that is being assigned to me.
I think Black men are viewed the way the are so other people can justify to themselves their own BS reasons for doing what they do. Whether it is to justify their own racism (in the case of non-Blacks) or to date IR without admitting their own issues (as in the case of many Black women).
Here is a newsflash, NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME BUT THE BLACK MALES WHO COMMIT THEM AND THEIR ENABLERS.
Exactly. And the people who refuse to acknowledge the difference between a crip and a Black man on his way home from a hard day of work, those are the people with rotten agendas.
White and Asian men don't have the answer? If what you are saying is true then why are crime rates MUCH LOWER in their communities than in black constructs? Why do Asian and white young men commit less crime on average than black and latino young men? White people are not the most moral people in the world but they still don't have the same pathologies that blacks do.
For many of the same reasons that Black trail other races in every category, whether it is man or women. Some of them have to do with history, some with the present. Some are self-induced, some are inflicted.
I would say the biggest reason today is that Black people as a whole are reproducing and neglecting their offspring at a much higher rate than other groups.
Far be it from to point out who controls reproduction among the sexes (hint: the ones with the vagina's that babies come out of) as it will only render me as a weak excuse making negro male.
Too many Black women are so desperate to be the ultimate victims that they literally give away one of the few real powers that they actually have.
I always see many comparing Black men to other races of men. How about Black women compare themselves to other races of women and how they manage their reproductive power.
@Meme
""I find it interesting that When Black women speak of looking for a mate. They say they want a "good" man regardless of race."
Black women in this subset of the blogosphere say that a lot. Black women in general rarely say this.
I agree with what you are saying. But I am specifically talking about Black women in the Blogosphere. You can't have it both ways. If you are open to dating all men and some are saying that they only want to date non-black men.
You can't come back with blaming Black men for the reason you or other Black women like you are single. That is ridiculous. You and other women like you are single because of Non-Black men. Not Black men.
That is one good thing coming from this study. We can be honest about a lot of issues now.
#1. Black women are NOT loyal to Black men. I would say maybe at one time, but most definitely in the last 30 years. They are not. They are just not pursued by non-black men in vast numbers.
#2. This Demonize Black men and Praise white men movement needs a reality check. I hope this is it.
#3. Black women who only want to date non-black men. They are going to have to be honest with themselves, and the reasons why they are single. One can only hope. But I doubt it.
"I agree. I think that a lot of people are not taking an honest assessment of themselves."
You know her statement was hyperbolic. Do you really think there are a lot of black female Wal-Mart cashiers that will settle for nothing less than Harold Ford Jr.? It's not about not dating "up", it's about dating a peer. Barack and Michelle (since we're talking about them, for whatever reason) were peers. If you're the Wal-Mart cashier, the shelf stocker is your Barack. If you're a pharmaceutical sales rep, the shelf stocker isn't your peer, and a refusal to consider him as a potential mate does not mean that you want to be pampered by an oil tycoon.
I hear what you are saying in theory but that is not reality. I don't know how many dates you have been on with various types of Black women. But even the Walmart Cashier has dreams of this super tupac executive guy.
But to be honest. I will not say this is soley a Black woman issue. All women from 18-25 play the trade up game. It makes sense. These are the years when they have the "best" looks. So they try to get with the best looking richest guy they can get. It's just that along the way if you get pregnant, an STD, or just made yourself undesirable along the way. You greatly limit your potential partners in the future.
Like Ronia stated earlier which I agree 110%.
who are waiting for a man who will care FOR them, rather than searching for a man who will care ABOUT them.
That doesn't mean that you should date the stock boy from Walmart. That means when looking for a potential partner. Don't treat yourself as a commidity that has to be bought. Else that is exactly what will happen. You will be bought and sold when the newer flashier model comes out.
I always see many comparing Black men to other races of men. How about Black women compare themselves to other races of women and how they manage their reproductive power.
Oh really?
And instead of black men such as YOURSELF, how about compare YOURSELVES(BLACK MEN) to other races of men and how they bulid communities and respect women and don't black others for their failures in life and stop comparing black WOMEN to other races of women.
"Why? Because they don't come up with the same bullshit excuses that blacks generally do (similar to yours)...blame da man, blame black mothers, blame everyone else except those responsible. Here is a newsflash, NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME BUT THE BLACK MALES WHO COMMIT THEM AND THEIR ENABLERS."
Lormarie,
Thank you for challenging uselessness.
Why exactly did this become a battle of the sexes argument? Black Men and Black Women each have responsibility for the state of the Black race--- it isn't a gender issue. There's a lack of personal responsibility on both sides, after all.
I don't like to see Black Men and Women fight about who's "worse". It's self-defeating, and detracts from finding solutions to the problems that afflict BOTH sides.
Crime is not a "Black Man's problem"; irresponsible reproduction is not a "Black Woman's problem". They are larger racial problems to which both sexes contribute and which require both sexes to work together to solve.
This is one of the reasons we, as a race, cannot get it together. We spend too much time bickering over who's going to take responsibility, both within and outside of the race, and not nearly enough time fashioning a plan for improvement.
"Why? Because they don't come up with the same bullshit excuses that blacks generally do (similar to yours)...blame da man, blame black mothers, blame everyone else except those responsible. Here is a newsflash, NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME BUT THE BLACK MALES WHO COMMIT THEM AND THEIR ENABLERS."--lormarie
Lormarie,
Thank you for challenging uselessness.--Grata
LOL, sickening isn't it? There are black males out there killing and dying at the hands of black men and he (and a few others) are worried about black women complaining on the internet? I had no idea that complaining about black men was worse than killing them. Someone explain the logic please.
Joe Clyde
"You and other women like you are single because of Non-Black men. Not Black men."
I think we're actually in agreement, here. I said before that there's a profound level of disinterest from non-black men/women in black women/men that makes dating out improbable for the majority of black people that are "open" to the idea -- who compose only a subset of the general black population. That's probably one of the reasons that some black people pick apart each other's appearance based on physical approximations of other racial groups -- because black people who have only marginal attraction to other black people are still in the black dating pool only because of a lack of non-black options.
Also, I was only talking about black/black relationships because that's what she was talking about when she said the following:
"So you get your Harvard business-educated black man, then what? That doesn't guarantee he'll be a man of compassion, integrity, or that you'll even be compatible. Say what you will about white women, but they get and stay married at much higher rates than we do."
She mentioned the ideal black man in reference to black women, and the vast majority of white women are married to same-race men, so I thought she was referencing same-race relationships specifically.
Also,
"Black women are NOT loyal to Black men. I would say maybe at one time, but most definitely in the last 30 years."
I think that that site attracts waaay more white-loving minorities of both genders than others, or else the chart would more accurately reflect real-life pairings among groups that are more desirable to white people than black people generally are. For instance, while Latinos do pair up with white people fairly often, they generally prefer their own. This chart says that they prefer whites over their own. Because of this, I think it does more or less reflect how the various racial groups view black people, but not how they view whites or one another in relation to whites.
"#2. This Demonize Black men and Praise white men movement needs a reality check. I hope this is it."
So do I. It struck me as silly from the very "beginning." However, I don't think this site subscribes to that ideology, and I certainly hope that you're not under the illusion that I do.
I'm pretty sure that I'm unpopular with non-black men because I'm black. I'll eventually get over it, even if they don't.
This right here is what kills me:
Black Men and Black Women each have responsibility for the state of the Black race--- it isn't a gender issue.
My can't black people be individuals who are responsible for their own lives? Every perceived pathology in the Black community is not the responsibility of every Black individual. This is especially true when these issues aren't present in one's own social circle. And even if we "good blacks" were the surrogate parents of complete strangers who share our skin tone, how can we help those who aren't willing to help themselves?
Crime is not a "Black Man's problem"; irresponsible reproduction is not a "Black Woman's problem". They are larger racial problems to which both sexes contribute and which require both sexes to work together to solve.--Ronia
With all due respect, this is just more denial. Blacks can deny the higher incidence of criminality among black males all they wish but the facts remains, they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the US and if I'm not mistaken, the UK as well. I used to deny it until I found it to be true according to stats. It's getting worse:
http://www.thedefendersonline.com/2009/01/08/young-black-male-murders-rise-time-to-reinvest-in-solutions/
"A recent study released by Northeastern University shows a disturbing rise in the number of young African-Americans involved in fatal violence. From 2002 to 2007, “the number of homicides involving black male juveniles as victims rose by 31% and as perpetrators by 43%.”
If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. BLACK WOMEN ARE IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME. If you'd like to blame yourself, go ahead and do that.
On the flip side, the rate of black women having abortions, collecting welfare, and our singlehood is too high. We may not make up the majority of those who engage in those behaviors but percentage wise, it's too high. BLACK MEN ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. I post on an IR blog where bw constantly attribute everything wrong with their lives on bm. I simply yawn inside when I read their comments.
Lastly, it should not upset anyone to see blacks arguing with each other. We have varying views just like every other race. It's monolithic groupthinking that's killing us, IMO.
Pretty heated post that seems to have riled folks up...
I think it takes a certain type of personality - call it adventurous, risk-taking, etc, - to use an on-line dating site. There's still a stigma with some people in using cyberspace to find that someone special. So the grouping of people used in said sample more of a risk-taker than your average 'out-there-and-looking' person.
I think the sampling is representative of positive risk-takers: I think people who engage in IR relationships are part of that subset. Since the numbers are there: most racial subgroups show a strong tendency to stick to their own kind. Again, I think that's human nature.
I don't think that a BW wanting a husband to provide for her is not an unreasonable request. Given that BM have been complaining that white women's feminism has ruined black women (autonomous power), I find it highly ironic that BW are expected to be autonomous yet submissive to a man. Either you want a woman to whom you are an accessory/enhancer or you want a life-partner. I don't think alot of black folks (men and women) know how to be good spouses. I don't know if that's culture (emerging or disintegrating) or societal (a larger part of the whole).
My can't black people be individuals who are responsible for their own lives?
Because we haven't earned that privilege. And yes, it is a privilege bestowed by the larger society. Whether you like it or not, the reality is, we are NOT judged as individuals. No minority is, actually, not even the model minority East Asians. Unlike the East Asians, however, *we* are judged by the absolute worst among us.
Every perceived pathology in the Black community is not the responsibility of every Black individual. This is especially true when these issues aren't present in one's own social circle.
Such issues do not have to be present in your social circle for you to experience the ramifications. Every Black doctor who experiences suspicion and doubt from a patient, every Black student who is ostracized as an Affirmative Action case, every Black individual who experiences profiling or racial discrimination is a victim of stereotyping that is the direct result of the type of pathetic behaviour that plagues the race.
I am not saying racism can be completely vanquished. I am not saying the mind's of rabid racists can be changed. I am not saying the burden is solely on Blacks.
What I am saying is the MAJORITY of burden does belong to Blacks, and the general consensus that Blacks are incompetent, "less than" creatures is not a consensus we can ever hope to change unless we make a conscious effort to improve the race.
However, it is not my opinion that winning the gold star from other races is what's important. What is important to me is that Blacks are squandering a legacy. It saddens and enrages me to see how we approve of poor education, criminality, poverty, illegitimate births, etc.
And yes, we do approve, so long as we continue to insist "It's not MY problem!" As long as we do nothing, we give tacit approval.
It's even more frustrating when these issues are not beyond us to repair. And yet, we don't. We're actually letting the Whites do the heavy lifting. As much as we complain about racism from Whites, the Whites are actually doing more to help Blacks in the diaspora than Blacks are doing for themselves. To wit: investment in Black Africa's future is being made primarily by the Chinese, and Whites.
It's shameful. Furthermore, it's relegating Blacks to a custodial state. And when China is in control of Black Africa's resources, we're really going to have egg on our faces, aren't we?
And even if we "good blacks" were the surrogate parents of complete strangers who share our skin tone, how can we help those who aren't willing to help themselves?
That's the question, isn't it? A tough question, one that will require serious thought and seismic cultural change.
Or, of course, we can all continue sitting around chirping the "It's not my responsibility" line while the race continues to crumble. We seem to have really mastered the "I'm not like THOSE Blacks!" pathology, after all. It's so much easier to complain about stereotypes and racial profiling and being judged by our skin rather than our character than to actually DO something about the underlying reasons for why it happens.
As a race, we deserve to be demonized, as much for the diseased culture that plagues us as for the fact that we seemed so determined to do absolutely nothing about it.
We look absolutely ridiculous when we cry "racism" at the decibel level we do as often as we do, and yet the state of the race is so utterly pathetic that we haven't go a solid leg on which to stand. We can demand individualism and equity all we want--- we aren't going to get any where near it so long as the Black race is disproportionately afflicted by undesirable elements.
But then, this is probably all a waste of my time. I get the impression that most Blacks don't give two jots about the race, for all the posturing that's done during Black History Month and in Church and other places of mass Black congress. Nobody talks a better game than Blacks, but we have yet to show up to play. Which is why we're going to stay on the bottom.
"They say, draw near to one another,
Save your race."--- Maya Angelou
"Blacks can deny the higher incidence of criminality among black males all they wish but the facts remains, they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the US and if I'm not mistaken, the UK as well. I used to deny it until I found it to be true according to stats."
But black female crime rates are much higher than other races of women as well. It's fine if you want to evaluate black men by these metrics, but black women are doing worse than just about every other race of women by these measures, as well. And as a black woman, I don't feel a special responsibility to stand between other black women and the lives of crime that they embark upon, so why should black men?
With all due respect, this is just more denial. Blacks can deny the higher incidence of criminality among black males all they wish but the facts remains, they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the US and if I'm not mistaken, the UK as well. I used to deny it until I found it to be true according to stats. It's getting worse:
You completely misunderstood what I said.
I have said, over and over again on this site, that criminality is higher among Blacks than any other race, and specifically Black males. I have also said that the rates of illegitimacy, poverty, and academic illiteracy is higher among Blacks than any other race.
The point I was making about blame parcelling is that, as a race, we spend too much time obsessing over "Whose fault is it?" rather than "How do we fix it?" Because, at the end of the day, these factors effect ALL of us.
THAT is what I meant by its not a gender problem. It's a RACE problem.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. BLACK WOMEN ARE IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM RESPONSIBLE FOR BLACK MALE CRIME. If you'd like to blame yourself, go ahead and do that.
Again, this is not about placing blame. This is about encouraging ALL Blacks, male and female, to work together to solve these problems.
Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER who is to blame. What DOES matter is that we waste far too much time arguing over who shoulders the blame rather than working in tandem to alleviate, lessen, or vanquish the problems that plague the race.
Again, we do not do this only with Blacks. We also spend a great deal of time blaming The White Man, The Asian Man, The Hispanic Man. In other words, we're expending valuable time, resources, and energy in an area that won't actually help us.
I'm not certain how I can make that any clearer.
Lastly, it should not upset anyone to see blacks arguing with each other. We have varying views just like every other race. It's monolithic groupthinking that's killing us, IMO.
No. What is killing us is that the prevailing "group think" is a destructive one. The prevailing "group think" is one that devalues education, exploits the welfare system, glamourizes criminality and failure, and denounces personal responsibility, all of which is detrimental to the race.
And while we're having these petty arguments, the other races are laughing at us while advancing their own interests.
Homogeneity has its place, whether you like it or not. Perhaps you don't comprehend that because you aren't cognizant of the manner in which cultures develop, and the inherent strengths and weaknesses that have made some groups more or less powerful than others.
And the fact of the matter is, ALL Blacks in the diaspora are called to answer for the behaviour of EVERY Black in the diaspora. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. But that doesn't change reality.
But, as I said earlier, I'm probably wasting my time, because I get the very distinct impression that most people are perfectly content to watch the Black race continue to crumble. And I, for the life of me, cannot comprehend this resistance to the notion that the race is unhealthy and needs improvement, and that cultural change must be a consistent pressure exerted from within the group.
Perhaps I'm simply too optimistic to believe the Black race is capable of intelligent group choices or collective self-improvement. Our crime rates are growing, our illegitimacy rates are growing, our rates of education are falling, our socioeconomic status is falling faster than gaining.
We're a mess. But apparently it's been decided that it's not a problem deserving of attention.
So every time some racist/racialist/or realist starts droning on about idiocy, criminality, and poor decision-making skills being predetermined by race, Blacks should sit down and shut their mouths. We certainly don't have any evidence to the contrary.
I simply pointed out that the data for this particular study is skewed towards minorities who have a preference for dating IR. And that's actually a fairly small percentage of minority groups. Any number of studies have shown that most people prefer to date within their own racial groups.
Roslyn
That’s a fair assessment. However I think the data pretty much mirrors what a lot of Black women who are open, already know and go in with a positive expectation will likely be hit hardest with discrimination compared to White, Asian or Hispanic women.
I think it's a good idea to go in knowing what you're dealing with. No matter how bleak the numbers are they are still in favor simply by the sheer force of numerical imbalances.
Again, I see more Black women, whose numbers as you noted are already low, who are far more willing than White or other non-Black men. IR sites already show a skew to Blacks compared to Whites and this pattern keeps coming up in other places. Naturally we all know most people prefer their own, but Asian women whose population is even smaller than Black women have an IR rate of 45%, that is abnormally high by anyone’s standards and their mate of choice who are the most receptive are of course White men.
Ronia Wrote:
Perhaps I'm simply too optimistic to believe the Black race is capable of intelligent group choices or collective self-improvement. Our crime rates are growing, our illegitimacy rates are growing, our rates of education are falling, our socioeconomic status is falling faster than gaining.
Ehav Ever's Response
Greetings Ronia. I think the inherrant problem rests in having a concerted effort made by small groups of like minded AA's with some specific goals that they as groups can accomplish that can have long term affects on their descendants. Thus each succesive generation becomes a part of the solution.
I am actually tackling this issues on my blog right now with a group of videos I have posted for something I call A Month of Positive Solutions. Two of the solutions I have been doing videos on are about Defending the Honor of Black Women and also Uplifting Black Men Through Nationalism.
Meme,
The fact that you chose to focus on my comment about black males and not my comments re: black females says a lot. Women of all races commit the least amount of crime here. Even when we do, they are more often than not nonviolent crimes.
The way in which you expressed yourself wasn't clear. Here is what you said:
Crime is not a "Black Man's problem"; irresponsible reproduction is not a "Black Woman's problem". They are larger racial problems to which both sexes contribute and which require both sexes to work together to solve.--Ronia
There's no need to work together if everyone would simply make better choices for their own lives. Shame those who don't.
And another comment:
"No. What is killing us is that the prevailing "group think" is a destructive one. The prevailing "group think" is one that devalues education, exploits the welfare system, glamourizes criminality and failure, and denounces personal responsibility, all of which is detrimental to the race."
So black groupthink glamourizes criminality? Unbelievable. I've never met a black person who glamourized crime or failure. Many of us make excuses for those who commit crime, but we don't generally glamourize it.
To be honest, you reply was filled with strawman fallacies...it's obvious that something needs to be done. Tell us something we don't know. However, your solution is unrealistic. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink comes to mind. Lastly, debating over black pathology is not petty.
It may appear that there was a stray away from the topic. Perhaps there was but it all still connects. Bw and men deal with racist stereotypes for a reason whether its the workplace, dating, police, etc. The stigmas against us aren't entirely the fault of other races.
We can say that we shouldn't care what others think, but everyone needs a job and a decent place to live don't they? Many bw want to be married, right? Unfortunately, we have to consider what other people think and the image we present to them.
Just realized that my last reply wasn't labeled correctly. The top was to Meme, the bottom bulk to Ronia.
Lormarie:
"The way in which you expressed yourself wasn't clear. Here is what you said:"
But I didn't say any of the things that followed that statement. Did you forget to name the other person/people that you were addressing?
"The fact that you chose to focus on my comment about black males and not my comments re: black females says a lot. Women of all races commit the least amount of crime here. Even when we do, they are more often than not nonviolent crimes."
If we're removing non-violent offenses, black male crime rates would look much better, as well.
"Many bw want to be married, right? Unfortunately, we have to consider what other people think and the image we present to them."
As far as "outside image" goes, Asian and Indian men have exceedingly low rates of crime/incarceration and a whole host of social ills, plus disproportionately high levels of education, and women that aren't from their group (in the case of Asians, even women that are from their group) still aren't very keen on them, at all. A big part of it is about evaluations of ethnic appearance, which doesn't change when a group becomes a model minority.
Also, if we're going to improve as a group, approval shouldn't be the motivator, because black people will probably never get widespread outside approval. Improvement should be the impetus for improvement.
Lormarie---
The way in which you expressed yourself wasn't clear. Here is what you said:
Did my subsequent clarification comments assist you?
There's no need to work together if everyone would simply make better choices for their own lives. Shame those who don't.
Bullocks. "Working together" is the fundamental component of any society, whether it's a society composed of 300 million (the U.S.) or just two (a typical marriage). Part of the problem is that the Black race, as a whole, is not reciprocally supportive. It's a lot easier to adjust individual behaviour if the group is working in tandem toward one goal.
The "Shame" method is the predominant manner in which Blacks are currently dealing with internal issues. It isn't working. All it does is create resentment and increase barriers to improvement.
So black groupthink glamourizes criminality? Unbelievable. I've never met a black person who glamourized crime or failure. Many of us make excuses for those who commit crime, but we don't generally glamourize it.
Currently, the predominant racial pathology DOES glamourize criminality. If you disagree with that, fine, but did you generally agree with the rest of my assessment?
And once more: what is *generally* true is not necessarily individually applicable.
To be honest, you reply was filled with strawman fallacies...
No, it wasn't. You don't understand what a straw-man fallacy entails; you should study it further, because the term is misapplied here, in addition to not being relevant.
it's obvious that something needs to be done. Tell us something we don't know. However, your solution is unrealistic.
Please explain what you find unrealistic. In fact, please explain how you have perceived my "solution", especially as I haven't articulated my solution at all. My comments have been, in summary: "We must all accept responsibility for the state of the race and work together to improve it." That is not a solution. That is a proclamation of distress and proposal to open dialogue toward finding a solution plan.
I do HAVE a solution-plan in mind, but I have chosen not to voice it because I am aware this would not prove a receptive forum.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink comes to mind.
The step here would be to discuss what to do about those particular horses. There are any number of options, both palatable and unpalatable, but my point remains: the Black race must do something about its current state, and it must do something as a group.
Lastly, debating over black pathology is not petty.
That is NOT what I said. I said continuing to argue over who is and is not to blame rather than working together is petty. Foregoing forward momentum in favour of arguing over blame is petty. Allowing our problems to control us rather than making the effort to surmount them is petty.
I did NOT say, nor did I ever imply, that discussing Black pathology is petty.
It may appear that there was a stray away from the topic. Perhaps there was but it all still connects. Bw and men deal with racist stereotypes for a reason whether its the workplace, dating, police, etc. The stigmas against us aren't entirely the fault of other races.
We can say that we shouldn't care what others think, but everyone needs a job and a decent place to live don't they? Many bw want to be married, right? Unfortunately, we have to consider what other people think and the image we present to them.
Was this meant for me? Because I believe I've made it more than clear that we are in agreement on this particular point.
However, in relation to my mantra of "Helping Ourselves", I contend that the impetus for improvement must be derived from a strictly internal source, and not conceived with the end-goal of "Making Whitey (or any other race) Like Us". We must improve first and foremost because it is beneficial to us, our children, and the future of the race.
Hello Ehav Ever,
I posted a comment on your blog in relation to Nationalism. I would certainly enjoy furthering the discussion on your site.
"It's shameful. Furthermore, it's relegating Blacks to a custodial state. And when China is in control of Black Africa's resources, we're really going to have egg on our faces, aren't we?"
Now here is a myth that has picked up strength. China having control over Africa's resources. There are so many countries that are interested in Africa's resources but for some reason there is this constant focus on China. I am yet to figure out what the agenda for this myth is.
Africans have been dealing with Chinese forever. I would estimate that 80% of houselhold products in some countries are imported from China. But still there is no "Chinese" take over. What people don't realize is that African leaders are masters of playing countries against each other.
In the could war , they played the West against Russia.
Over 90% of cars and electronics come from Japan. ANd now you have the middle Easterners planning on building oil refineries in oil rich nations. Everyone wants a piece of it, I don't see how China can magically go in and take control of majority of the resources short of a continent wide war. And that is very unlikely to happen.
The Western media is really doing quite a good job on this one.
Hopefully this thread is not dead yet.
As a white man who tends toward seeking Black women (not exclusively of course), I am wondering if there is hope in presenting a new appealing archetype to the general society. A branding (in the marketing sense) of the Black Female Talented Tenth. The reality of the BFTT pretty much already fits the archetype I am proposing, but the society at large hasn't caught on to this yet.
Let me explain. I have long known there is a valuable (but not valued) impressive set of successful, intelligent, romantically-loyal, moral, affectionate, psychologically tough, sexy, but lonely, black women. And they are tragically underserved in the marriage market. Over the past year, I have been pleased to learn that most of these women (essentially you gals here really) are at least open to considering non-black men.
Ladies, the problem clearly is not that you are not worthy, but you that you are undiscovered! Progress is already underway for firming up this archetype to be understood by the larger society. Currently, observant men are starting to to be aware of a proto-archetype {single | black
| lonely | professional | female}, and the other positive descriptors {successful | intelligent | loyal, moral, affectionate, tough-minded | sexy} are accreting apace.
This process must be encouraged! Anything that can be done in a coordinated way to foster the growth of this meme must be pursued. Remember, in its essence, the archetype is in fact in line with reality. Given that, it is mostly a matter of exposure, discovery by the society/media at large.
I have been up 26 hours, so I don't have the insight at the moment to present strategey and tactics in the service of this goal. I have to sleep. But I'll be back this evening to see what you all have thought up.
Wishing you all progress.
Promoting the Brand of Quality Black Women
------
As a white man who tends toward seeking Black women (not exclusively of course), I am wondering if there is hope in presenting a new appealing archetype to the general society. A branding (in the marketing sense) of the Black Female Talented Tenth. The reality of the BFTT pretty much already fits the archetype I am proposing, but the society at large hasn't caught on to this yet.
Let me explain. I have long known there is a valuable (but not valued) impressive set of successful, intelligent, romantically-loyal, moral, affectionate, psychologically tough, sexy, but lonely, black women. And they are tragically underserved in the marriage market. Over the past year, I have been pleased to learn that most of these women (essentially you gals here really) are at least open to considering non-black men.
Ladies, the problem clearly is not that you are not worthy, but you that you are undiscovered! Progress is already underway for firming up this archetype to be understood by the larger society. Currently, observant men are starting to to be aware of a proto-archetype {single | black
| lonely | professional | female}, and the remaining positive descriptors {successful | intelligent | loyal | moral | affectionate | tough-minded | sexy} are accreting slowly.
This process must be encouraged! Anything that can be done in a coordinated way to foster the growth of this meme must be pursued. Remember, in its essence, this archetype is in fact in line with reality. Given that, it is mostly a matter of exposure, discovery by the society/media at large.
I have been up 26 hours, so I don't have the insight at the moment to present strategey and tactics in the service of this goal. I have to sleep. But I'll be back this evening to see what you all have thought up. Don't for get the power of naming this meme/archetype.
Wishing you all progress.
Grata---
I am not a mindless drone of "Western media". I do not sit around watching TV and reading what passes for journalism in the West.
I read books, peer-reviewed papers, Rand reports, economic journals, and non-anecdotal blogs and region-specific news sites to help inform my view of what is occurring in the world.
And it is no myth that China is gaining an enviable position in a country (South Africa) rich with natural resources.
I did not say ALL of Africa. I said Black Africa, though I realize now I should have been specific in order to clearly delineate the matter of reference.
As for China and South Africa--- I do feel it's not beyond the pale to suggest that China could very well become the de facto ruling party in South Africa. South Africa has practically no infrastructure, is plagued by disease, war, and corrupt governance, and not enough of the exported students are returning quickly enough to turn SA around. Further, the emigration of skilled South Africans is compounding their wealth of issues.
China is SA's largest investor. This is not to say, nor imply, that China intends to rule SA--- I highly doubt that's the intent. However, China is positioning itself for economic supremacy in SA. One can control a country's resources without direct control of a country's government.
Although, foreign rule of SA would probably be best for the country. As much as it pains me to say, Black Africans in South Africa fared better under colonial rule. And though no man should live as a slave in his own country, unless SA can drag itself out of the slums, someone else with the power and money necessary will do it for them, and reap the benefits.
Which is essentially how I feel about all Blacks in the diaspora.
But, Grata, as we disagree completely on the China-SA issue, I suppose it's not worth the conversation, eh?
"China is SA's largest investor. This is not to say, nor imply, that China intends to rule SA--- I highly doubt that's the intent. However, China is positioning itself for economic supremacy in SA. One can control a country's resources without direct control of a country's government."
Clarification between South Africa and the rest of Africa is indeed in order. China being the largest SA investor? As much as I don't read that many econ Journals, I still find it had to believe that China suddenly acquired Resource dominance in South Africa after so many years of European involvement. I would still question those sources.
Yes, SA is being quickly run down and that makes it a perfect environment for China to move in but this is assuming that other countries like India, Korea, Russia, Lebanon, Israel are just sitting by and watching.
The beauty about Chinese involvement in Africa as you already stated is they stay out of local politics and this is what in the end hinders their ability to dominate. Countries like India, Some Arabs and Europeans don't shy away from that. So I still think Chinese dominance is over hyped.
As a white man who tends toward seeking Black women (not exclusively of course)
---
Yeah -- you can't have anyone thinking you seek out Black women exclusively...oh, the horror!
Ronia Wrote:
I posted a comment on your blog in relation to Nationalism. I would certainly enjoy furthering the discussion on your site.
Ehav Ever's Response
Hello Ronia. I got your message. I responded to it on my blog. There is also another poster who posted an interesting comment. Check it out.
@Ronia and Meme
The both of you are even headed people.
Yeah -- you can't have anyone thinking you seek out Black women exclusively...oh, the horror!
Anonymous---
I don't think that's fair. I took Aabaakawad's disclaimer as an attempt to dispel any concerns that his interest in Black women was a "fetish", rather than a normal heterosexual male interest in women, some of whom happen to be Black. If he's been following this blog at all, he might well be aware that the "Minority Women as Fetish" is an issue.
Take Robert De Niro for instance. I believe De Niro sincerely finds the Black female aesthetic most appealing, but he has often been accused of fetishizing Black women.
Just my thoughts. I don't think it fair to demonize Aabaakawad without first knowing which side of the fence his disclaimer occupies.
Siditty, please post:
Peripeteia/Ronia are one in the same. I had an account issue with my primary and used my alternate, and I forgot to change the display name.
My apologies!
--- Ronia
Ronia,
Your replies consists of strawman fallacies because you are simply presenting a distorted view of your opponent's position in order to argue back. For example, you said:
"I contend that the impetus for improvement must be derived from a strictly internal source, and not conceived with the end-goal of "Making Whitey (or any other race) Like Us"
That is a distorted view because the goal isn't getting anyone to like us but to get what we need in life. That's why we avoid speaking ebonics during job intervgiews. We have to consider how others view us just as they are to consider our thoughts. To be honest, I have no doubt you knew that already. But sometimes we need to "answer back."
Also, I have to admit that your choice of words is just plain silly:
"impetus for improvement"
Remember, this is a blog not an acceptance speech for the nobel peace prize. The use of this type of language is quite pretentious.
Why is your solution unrealistic? You keep speaking of blacks working together to solve problems. That is unrealistic because no race can come to a consensus on solutions or even how to set them in motion. Not only that, very few people want to be their brother's keeper and they don't have to be. I believe that if everyone simply gets their own house in order, the status of blacks will rise automatically.
At this point, I'd better stop since I tend to get a bit arrogant at times. But if you'd like to debate on other issues, feel free to visit my blog.
I am also curious about your other solution. If you don't want to post it here, I'll create a post out of it on my blog. If I disagree with your solution, I'll say so and why. If I agree with it, I'll say so.
As a white man who tends toward seeking Black women (not exclusively of course), --AaaBaa
Nothing wrong with that. I can't understand anyone who seeks out only one group. Nothing wrong with it, I just like variety...you should too, LOL.
I've lurked on this thread long enough. :-)
I agree with Ronia and Lormarie that it's not fair to question someone just because he says he doesn't date BW exclusively. One tendency I see on *some* IR sites is that they want to create some kind of litmus test for who is really into IR dating, so they keep pushing the idea that BW who like WM for instance, are all only into WM. Is that usually the case? I have a type (has to do with features and body type), but I really just like men, lol. I don't think women interested in IR dating (or men, for that matter) have to "pick a side" to prove they are for real. Like Ronia said, if a WM said he only liked BW someone would probably be trying to accuse him of a fetish.
PS. Siddity, hope the pregnancy is going well? Have you and your hubby picked out names? Jasmin is a cute one. ;-)
I'm baaaaack.
I'm glad to be validated as a non-exclusive BW-admirer, LOL. Actually I never imagined that would be controversial.
It's funny sometimes what part of a sincere comment gets engaged. Would anyone like to engage concerning the heart of my previous comment? Suppose we wanted to promote or express the emerging Quality Black Women Archetype? Perhaps to called "The Apex Sista"?
In the world of memes, which most of the public consumes unconsciously, creating a new meme is easier than killing old ones.
I've just discovered my idea is now a blog post, Siditty decided to run with it:
http://siditty.blogspot.com/2009/10/are-black-women-not-yet-discovered.html
I happen to think HawkMom & Ronia made an awful lot of sense on here. Can't figure out why the Sid & Yan just turned on them(especially on HawkMom).
Come back HawkMom, you were a voice of calm, reason and tolerance. Don't be bullied out of voicing your opinions...please! I understood exactly what you were saying, as I suspect did your opponents.
Lormarie---
There were no straw man fallacies in my posts to you. None. Zero. They absolutely do not exist. Why? Because, Lormarie, I actually AGREE with you. I said so several times.
The difference of opinion here is that I feel Blacks should be working together to fix issues that have communal impact. You seem to feel that Black men and Black women should be individually responsible for fixing what you consider mutually exclusive problems.
No fallacies exist inside of that disagreement, Lormarie. I'm not certain what your background is in rhetoric or the arts of debate, but you're simply wrong here.
I will try again to make myself understood:
That's why we avoid speaking ebonics during job intervgiews.
I never use ebonics. But if, by this, you were referring to what is commonly dubbed in America as "code-switching", my response is: Why, exactly, does "code-switching" need to exist? But, of course, I do not consider ebonics a valid language.
We have to consider how others view us just as they are to consider our thoughts. To be honest, I have no doubt you knew that already. But sometimes we need to "answer back."
My point was not that external assessment isn't important. My point was that the decision to improve the lot of the Black race should be undertaken because it is healthy for the Black race, and not because it will make other races like us.
Remember, this is a blog not an acceptance speech for the nobel peace prize. The use of this type of language is quite pretentious.
I will not apologize for utilizing my vocabulary, and I absolutely refuse to condescend to any one merely because they themselves are frightened of "big words". I respect the language, Lormarie, I use the words that are most appropriate, and if you find that discomforting, that is unfortunate. My word usage is not pretentious; refusing to "talk down" is not pretentious.
The world at large might be perfectly at ease with dumbing itself down in all provinces of discourse, but I swim against the tide in that respect.
Why is your solution unrealistic? You keep speaking of blacks working together to solve problems. That is unrealistic because no race can come to a consensus on solutions or even how to set them in motion.
Here, I must disagree. The Jews, the Irish, the Japanese, and the Chinese have all displayed the ability to function as homogeneous entities in pursuit of common goals. (Which isn't to say, of course, that individual dissension didn't exist within those groups.)
Not only that, very few people want to be their brother's keeper and they don't have to be.
I understand that most people want autonomy. I, myself, am a firm believer in autonomy. However, I also realize that every member of the group is an ambassador for that group, whether they desire to be or not. And the Black race exists in such a state that we do not have the luxury of autonomy. If, however, we are willing to sacrifice selfishness in pursuit of common goals of racial improvement, I do believe we can attain the desirable levels of individualism and still boast a healthy, functioning race.
I believe that if everyone simply gets their own house in order, the status of blacks will rise automatically.
I don't disagree. However, I feel that the majority of Blacks are incapable of this type of accountability OF THEIR OWN ACCORD. I feel they need to be encouraged, lead, coerced, or simply forced into self-improvement. To be blunt: I believe most of the troublesome Blacks in the race are too short-sighted/stupid to care for their own houses.
I also believe that clinging to the notion of "It's not my problem" is why Blacks are in their current state. It IS our problem, all of us. We are only as strong as the weakest among us, and in this respect, we are a very weak race indeed.
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